PCIe USB 3.0 host card

[boleary]

Hey Paul, what mother board are you using?

[Scroobius]

Motherboard is ASUS P6X58D-E

P

[PeterSt]

Okay ... I don't think I am too soon with it, and it can't be denied ...

Another leap forward.

But I must be precautious somewhat ...

With a lot of and a  to PeterSt is in shape - Audio Revolution I think I said in there that something else wasn't right now - as it seemed to me. I kept on playing with it because of the sheer pure sound coming from it, but not that I was satisfied. Actually I am still working on it to finish it for public use (wow, what a work), but I had something like : against all odds.

The sound from it carries less dynamics, sounding quite OK, but comes as a waste when switching back to "normal". Pianos are not as crystal clear, and the combination with "so pure" comes as strange to myself.
That it is sheer analogue sound is something else, but there's that signature to the sound. I can't bear that at all.


And then there came the USB3 connection ...

The silkyness of that XXHighEnd tweak is still there;
The balance has changed completely; I concur with those who say the room is fuller with sound. Drums are larger sized, to name a thing.
Strangely enough dynamics have gone less again, but all what's upfront in my mind is that this is no digital anymore. It's all background music at  loud level now, if you know what I mean. It is sooo normal.
It is so normal that I start to be afraid that the NOS1 has no aditional value anymore over any other not-so-detailed DAC.
But the crazy detail is still there.

If we only take Yello as the example of often "known" music to play for some real merits of XXHighEnd, and if I tell you that for the NOS1 this didn't suffice anymore (for me at least) and ... that with or without USB3 I just don't recognize the tracks anymore just because of that little XXHE tweak ... but that now it also seems *right* ...

... then I can't tell anymore what is all happening. I just don't get it.

I know, I am mixing (not up) quite a few things here, but for me it is about my often-right perception that something was wrong with my XXHE tweak while it should be quite OK from theory, and thus the onclusion that USB2 is wrong somewhere ?
How ?

So at this moment I can only have the best theory for myself : USB3 is wrong. Well, those cracks I perceive at clicking buttons - and which cracks can be all over once the PC is longer up and I'm more in development mode (messing up the PC actually) - don't promise for the better.
Still it sounds better as how I see it now. It even undoes/corrects the wrongness (that assumed) of the XXHE tweak, and I'm reluctant. Reluctant that it acts as some nice filter again. But if so, a filter(ing) of what ?

All 'n all, no definite verdict yet. But at some stage I maybe must give up thinking and have a nice time of listening instead. We will see how things go ...

Peter

[PeterSt]

... In the mean time I want to express my great thanks to that email writer about this (which, remember, was just one day ahead of Nick's posting about USB3), who went as far as sending me his exact cable and connector across a couple of oceans. Just to be sure I'd be using the same as he did so I could perceive it the same.

Also, from some people I can have the trust that they may judge audio better than me myself, which obviously is the case many times anyway. But at least he was right, and I perceive the sound exactly the same as he described it.

That this description in the end is the same as by now others have it, should only be a confirmation that really something is going on here.
Let me, please, add to this that for not NOS1 users this all may come across as some kind of hupla, but honestly, "we" really seem to be working on the ultimate reproduction of music through loudspeakers. I say "we" to NOS1 users, but I also say even more explicitly if possible "we" because I hoped for the day that other NOS1 users would be able to help me progressing with it all, like all the so many did with the software (XXHighEnd). This day is now there and I think it is great.

Again all the credits go to Nick (fameous NOS1 tweaker by now ), but the credits go just the same to the bloke who doesn't want credits. Well, he can't avoid them now.
Deep hats off to you both.
But just the same an as great thanks to those diving into this and can confirm, or the other way around, which is as important.

What seems to remain as a little task for now, is how to let this work out the same for everybody.

For others (because I really don't have the time to work this out now) my MoBo is an Asus P7P55D-E EVO. I have no idea how my USB3 connects internally. So, if someone knows and can see common denominators somewhere, don't hold back.
I can't set a thing in the BIOS for USB3 (yea, shut it off), but I also use the BIOS which came with the board.
Some say the bandwidth of USB3 can be limited (that looks like a good idea to at least try) but I can't find this in my BIOS and don't know about tools otherwise.

Btw, I did not shut off my USB2 stuff, which could be a next thing to try for me. But it is also a tad inconvenient.

Peter

[juanpmar]

What a hard work in front of you, so many things involved and questions to answer...

Just for curiosity, have you tried to connect the NOS1 from the USB 3.0 port in the PC with the standard USB 2.0 cable?. As you know I´m unable to use the USB 3.0 cable but still the sound is great and there isn´t any crack at all.

Best regards,
Juan

[boleary]

Hi Peter, as someone suggested above, do you now think you will test SQ by adding a usb3 connector to the NOS1, thus eliminating the need for an adapter? Just wondering cause I'm close to sending my NOS1 back to you for the "standard" upgrade, but maybe I should wait a bit?

[JohanZ]

Just for curiosity, have you tried to connect the NOS1 from the USB 3.0 port in the PC with the standard USB 2.0 cable?.

After installing the usb3 pcie interface i hear an improvement with the usb2 cable. Replacing usb2 cable for the usb3 cable with adapter first impression no improvement. Instruments get a more rounded/warmer sound. So i switched back to the nos standard usb2 cable. I will test the usb3 again.

[PeterSt]

Hi Peter, as someone suggested above, do you now think you will test SQ by adding a usb3 connector to the NOS1, thus eliminating the need for an adapter? Just wondering cause I'm close to sending my NOS1 back to you for the "standard" upgrade, but maybe I should wait a bit?

Hey there ...

The point here is : no Neutrik USB3 (B) connectors exist; whether "Neutrik fit" exist I didn't sort out yet ...

Regards !
Peter

[PeterSt]

... Actually by sheer coincidence, I think I have just found what is causing those "cracks" ...
Well, what does not go by coincidence or accident here ...

Still working on the by now notorious XXHE tweak, I suddenly realized what I could be hearing. Just missing samples ...

So those who perceive the same as *when* I receive CRACKS, will be receiving crackLING - I'm almost sure. So, a tiny crackling noise. Very similar (or most probably just the same) as many of us heard when moving the mouse. This depends on the interface (to the DAC) and maybe a few more things (like the responsiveness of the playback software vs. the behaviour of the PC). With my tweak though, I can emphasize it. And as I said it before ... the level of it is the same as the level of the music. This 100% fits to this idea of missing samples. In my case it does ...

So, missing samples. Why then ?
Briefly thinking : because the bandwidth consumed inherently by the USB3 speed is too much to let have the PC the needed "attention" to audio. What is it ? 5Gb/s ? Yes, this is much. So, at something like a speed (frequency) of 5Ghz, but let's say at the byte level, so now it's 0.625 Gb/s - something must be supplying that. This, while my processor cores run at only doulbe of that (hyperthreading !).
This can't be a good thing !

And so indeed, I/we should be seeking for limiting that bandwidth.
Whether it is the bandwidth itself which allows for the better sound (when nothing is touched and all the attention can keep on going to audio) is something else. But that is why we try a few things ...

Peter

[PeterSt]

Ok, this isn't going to be *that* simple;
First of all, I don't think that the main processor needs to provide the communication (though it can in certain setups, generally spoken), but merely I don't understand what I see ...

The USB3 Host Controller and Root Hub are provided by NEC. I see nothing there (and liked to see the Advanced tab).
What I can derive from the data, is that it's actually a PCI provided device.

Under (one of) the normal USB2 "Standard Enhanced PCI to USB Host Controller" entries (Device Manager btw) I see
1. just a good old MS driver (so, no NEC thing);
2. the Phasure NOS1 USB Device.
hmm ...

The NOS1 device nicely shows its bandwidth used, which is 27% at the highest sample rate. Lower the sample rate and the percentage drops nicely (needs playback, or at least streaming going on, which happens when the Control Panel is started).

As I said earlier in the topic, I never saw the Phasure driver installed for this USB3 port, which looked weird to me. Now ? now *that* starts to look normal, but I don't understand a freaking thing of what I see, and it looks like it's just serviced by USB2.

Now what ?

Do people see similar things ?
Or the opposite, the proof of an USB3 port servicing the NOS1 (or other USB DAC for that matter) ?

[Nick]

Ok, this isn't going to be *that* simple;
First of all, I don't think that the main processor needs to provide the communication (though it can in certain setups, generally spoken), but merely I don't understand what I see ...

The USB3 Host Controller and Root Hub are provided by NEC. I see nothing there (and liked to see the Advanced tab).
What I can derive from the data, is that it's actually a PCI provided device.

Under (one of) the normal USB2 "Standard Enhanced PCI to USB Host Controller" entries (Device Manager btw) I see
1. just a good old MS driver (so, no NEC thing);
2. the Phasure NOS1 USB Device.
hmm ...

The NOS1 device nicely shows its bandwidth used, which is 27% at the highest sample rate. Lower the sample rate and the percentage drops nicely (needs playback, or at least streaming going on, which happens when the Control Panel is started).

As I said earlier in the topic, I never saw the Phasure driver installed for this USB3 port, which looked weird to me. Now ? now *that* starts to look normal, but I don't understand a freaking thing of what I see, and it looks like it's just serviced by USB2.

Now what ?

Do people see similar things ?
Or the opposite, the proof of an USB3 port servicing the NOS1 (or other USB DAC for that matter) ?

Peter hi,

Thanks for your kind words  .

Just been catching up with your posts on this. Very pleased to hear your are getting an analogue sound as well now from usb3

Reading a few posts, drivers seem to be important with USB 3 cards. Could be the MS driver is causing the cracks if your chipset is actually NEC ?

A thought that occured is that it might be better to give a PCIe card a go if your mobo usb3 is on a PCI bridge, you would also get to load a native NEC chipset driver. Also I think bus bandwidth and latency levels on the bus matter. When using PCI connected USB 2 I used to use a PCI bus latency setting utility which could tune the smoothness of high frequency. The PCIE USB 3 setup seems to take the sound of that tweak  up several steps. Might the bus speed / latency be important ?

Turning off all usb that is not being used in bios or disabling them in device manager is worth doing. I got the largest return from turning off mobo USB in bios.

At the moment I am back to using a USB 2 cable but experimenting with a 5 meter cable. Will post thoughts when I have tried a few things back to back.

I am sure looking forwards to z09-7.

Best,

Nick.

[PeterSt]

Just for curiosity, have you tried to connect the NOS1 from the USB 3.0 port in the PC with the standard USB 2.0 cable?. As you know I´m unable to use the USB 3.0 cable but still the sound is great and there isn´t any crack at all.

Finally ...

It may look strange, but it was hard for me to understand what you meant. Well, I can see it now, and especially after trying a few things ...

I think people should look some closer in their devices what's actually happening. For the PCIe card solutions I don't know, but for the MoBo solutions - especially Asus, something is just not working. It just *is* using USB2, see my earlier post about it. And btw, those USB2 ports are denoted as "USB3/USB2".

Imagine this USB3 disc connected to one of the ports. Next I disable the USB3 (internal) hub, en voliá, there the USB3 disc is installed on the USB2 hub. Happens automatically. So, completely backward USB2 compatible.

The above is really what people have to realize, because this goes unnoticed.

Phasure NOS1 was not to be found anywhere anymore. Uninstall it / Reinstall it - nothing.

Next I disabled the USB2 stuff in the BIOS and retried via several ways. I ended up with using an USB2 cable, but nothing anywhere. So, no way I could get the NOS1 "hooked up" to USB3, when USB2 wasn't running. I think I tried everything (with current USB3 drivers for the NEC chip I have in there).

There is one little "light" and this is that USB3 is not always able to recognize devices. I know this from this USB3 disc which is not always there after a reboot, and it's on forums as well. But, where a power off/on of the disc helps, this is not the case for the NOS1. Something just doesn't work, *or* something in the driver is too strictly telling that this can not be USB3. On that matter it would be good if someone could confirm - and what I asked before - whether they really see it as an USB3 device. When not sure you can still let know what you see, and otherwise may disable USB2 in the BIOS to be sure (no big deal I think).

When for more than me alone this USB3 path travels over USB2, there will be no way I think we can say that it is for the better generally. And, I'd even say that it should work for the worse, thinking added noise only. But, that acting as a filter; May work out for the better when nothing else to improver on that other "noise" anyway.

So ? anyone ?

[PeterSt]

Something like a USB 3.0 monitor? I never saw that before, I´ll try to find it.

Maybe because I'm now looking at Normal OS Mode - maybe because I reinstalled that USB3 driver - but it is a process and called nusb3mon.exe "USB 3.0 Monitor". So, I had this running with my described attempts, but at least *that* doesn't help.

Regards,
Peter

[listening]

Hi all USB aficionados,

I tried to follow the discussion and try to summarize for me:

• Don't mix up active devices with USB 2.0 and USB 3.0. Decide for one of them.
• If using USB 3.0 it's not recommended to connect DAC and Harddisk to the same controller
• If adding USB 3.0 PCIe cards take two separate ones if you like to connect DAC and harddisk to USB

Is that right?

Georg

[Nick]

On that matter it would be good if someone could confirm - and what I asked before - whether they really see it as an USB3 device. When not sure you can still let know what you see, and otherwise may disable USB2 in the BIOS to be sure (no big deal I think).

Peter hi,

I have attached a screen shot of Device manager in (view by connection) of the NOS connected to my PCIe USB 3 card.

As you can see the connection is PCIe > USB3 host controller > USB 3 Root Hub > NOS1. BUT the NEC chip has USB 2 back compatibility so I think everything connects as far as the chip using the above USB 3 then on chip a USB 2 device is detected and driven appropriately by the chip.

This is why I wanted to try this because all the way up to the chip all seems to be USB3 driven over real PCIe, which should all be lower transmission latency when the data reaches the chip it detects and talks USB 2 to the NOS1. This is what I hope is happening. I will get the NEC chip datasheet to take a look at how USB2 compatibility is provided.

Mobo USB seems to be giving good results for some people but I was trying to test something specific (above) which not all mobos may be able to reproduce  in terms of the end to end connectivity.

I hope this helps,

Kind regards,

Nick.

UPDATE

re reading this it has me asking if the NOS could actually by connecting as a USB3 device. Is this possible Peter ?