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Author Topic: NOS1 on spikes  (Read 45184 times)
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GerardA
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« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2011, 06:12:05 pm »

Well, why not these ones:
http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/sblocks1e.html
 prankster
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christoffe
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« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2011, 11:36:01 pm »

Hi,

another interesting link to vibrations.

http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/vibration.html

Joachim
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CoenP
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« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2011, 09:41:05 am »

Tuning resonances for audio can be a lifestyle, where spikes are only the beginning:

http://www.michaelgreenaudio.com/

Enjoy!
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« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2011, 02:25:49 pm »

Quote
Well, why not these ones:
http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/sblocks1e.html
 prankster

Hi GerardA

Went this morning to the grocery to get these blocks and did a huge investment of 7 Euro for 3 of them.
Must say the first impression is very good, much more musical then the perspex cylinders I used before.

Thanks for the posting!
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« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2011, 02:34:35 pm »

I am not sure (again, never tested it), but my second option was about those 7 euro for 3 blocks. Maybe they are not the same, but they can be easily produced (to my likings I mean).

So if this really is a good thing ...
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Scroobius
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« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2011, 05:31:24 pm »

Interesting thread - my NOS1 is supported on string. Well to be more exact it is on a shelf made of pieces of balsa glued together and veneered and that shelf sits on tensioned (but not too highly) chord. I bought this equipment rack primarily for a record deck (pre NOS1 ha ha) and the improvement in sound quality was huge it sounded like the deck had been upgraded to a much more expensive model. That deck had previously been sitting on a very highly regarded shelf on spikes on a concrete floor.

So Mani check out the feet below - I was told at the time that speakers with spikes mounted into four of these feet sound much better. Shame on me I never tried it but looks a bit like Mad Max T's theory.

I have not tried mounting my NOS1 on a normal shelf to compare but I will do and I will also try my speakers mounted on the feet and let you know how it goes. Certainly when I had an AN DAC it sounded much better on "string".

Shown below is the "string" arrangement below each shelf and a "foot" which accepts a spike in the middle (hidden in the picture). The guy who makes these shelves started supplying to the home market and now mostly supplies professional recording studios.

Paul


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« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2011, 09:39:04 pm »

Here you can read a review where TNT Stoneblocks are tested against Polychrystal and others:

http://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/vibra_iso_pt8_e.html

Juan
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« Reply #22 on: October 17, 2011, 08:19:55 pm »

Quote
I am not sure (again, never tested it), but my second option was about those 7 euro for 3 blocks. Maybe they are not the same, but they can be easily produced (to my likings I mean).

So if this really is a good thing .../quote]

Hi Peter,

last Saterday the Quadraspire QX Silencers Isolation Supports (QX-25) arrived.
They sound more balanced then the pumestone blocks, who tend to enhance slightly the sound in the mid high area, especially where brass percussion is used (brushes etc.).
Also the QX's sound much more musical as my perspex blocks, so I guess material is not everything, shape is also of importance...

Maybe I need to modify the shape of the pumestone to improve again the results. Have to do some more reading.

The rope thing also sounds interesting as DIY decoupling device.
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« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2011, 02:51:37 pm »

Now I am going to tell the obvious ...

Let's say a DAC is a sensitive device to (micro) vibrations. I myself would not know which part of it may be subject to the influence (most), so we (or at least I) can only think about how the impact goes :

1. Sound pressure onto the chassis;
2. Vibrations from its stand.

Ad 1.
Should be related to the sound waves in the room.
It can just as well be that the impact is at the level and frequencies we hear ourselves, and beyond.

Ad 2.
Must come from coupling of the loudspeakers, although to a certain degree it may come from sound pressure hammering on the walls and floor.

#1 can work out for the worse, when there's no stiff coupling to something very big. Possibly self-resonance will occur.

Resonance may be a problem in the first place; when the sound (via #1 or #2) impacts the chassis, that causing the sound to worsten, the frequency coming from this (through the loudspeakers) may be influencing the sound again. This is a sort of resonance (and should be a worst type of sound influence).

The chassis of the NOS1 is fairly sturdy, but that does not mean the material absorbs vibration (possibly the contrary). This means that impact from whatever side may make the whole chassis vibrate, and since impact will be from more sides there could even be a fight going on (the vibration can't be guided away).


I could think of a few more relevant things (and if someone else can, please go ahead !), but this is what we are dealing with.
Btw, an amplifier will be under te same influences as a DAC, although the DAC me be more fragile at some points. May be.

To understand better what will be happening, think turntables;
A first thing I ever back planned was putting my turntable in another room. Especially not a room on the same floor. For me, back then, it was my basement. Today I still can do that and probably I will, but it is a somewhat tedious thing with all the testing. Ok, I might loose some weight.
Anyway, no vibrations from the floor should enter the DAC (or amps) and no impact from SPL through air should;
both would be solved when those devices are in that other room on another floor.

When this came across, now think loudspeakers. Think of *why* you would use spikes, or why you would use a soft coupling (up to magnetic). Two directions exist I think : make the loudspeaker cabinet more stiff (could be the spikes) or make the floor less vibrate for a couple of other arguments (the loose coupling). Both would counteract eachother.

With some intelligent approach you should be able to achieve your best solution. It will be different for everybody. It will depend on the stiffness of your floor as well. The floor could even resonate in logitudenale direction at certain lower bass frequencies. Here too, think about what happens in that case. -> The floor will move and the diaphragm will stand still. That means no sound.
Uncoupled, the speaker's cabinet will do this, but at much higher frequencies. But same thing : no sound.

I can think of a few solutions to "stiffen" the loudspeaker's cabinet, but they are dangerous because if all is right the design of the speaker('s sound) took into account just how it is (and especially don't touch open baffles !).

Maybe others have good ideas ?
Peter
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« Reply #24 on: October 18, 2011, 07:56:10 pm »

Well, there seem to be a couple of mechanisms of the mechanics that might influence sound.
1. Macro vibrations, so long wave vibrations that cause the whole case and cables to vibrate, causing movement of wiring and parts and thereby causing 'some' electromechanical effect.
Resonance can occur depending on the coupling between speakers and cabinet, so room factors, positioning, decoupling etc. have effect here. Normally this will be a low frequency effect.

2. Micro vibrations that make the housing resonate in their Eigenfrequencies. Material choice and construction (stiffness) of the housing will be of influence here. Overall room resonance can occur here too and effects will be mid/high frequency range.
As the housing has more then one dimension, you will have more frequencies, waves & knots. (When you tap the housing you will hear the tone of these frequencies). Spikes help to 'break' the size of the cabinet (think of a string)  and will thereby make these frequencies higher.

Would be interesting to analyze the mechanical construction with some finite element package to see if these frequencies are in the audible area and what to do in order to suppress them... I might be able to help here.
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« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2011, 09:19:50 am »

Quote
Would be interesting to analyze the mechanical construction with some finite element package to see if these frequencies are in the audible area and what to do in order to suppress them... I might be able to help here.

Within itself I am all open to this (plus I can estimate your capabilities on this terrain !).

However, as usual I'm a bit differently oriented - also in this area. Could be too ignorant, but let's say good things may spring from it.
Ok, here is my latest experience, which is only from last night - that's why this specific example; It should tell us that as always other things are first, when it is about audio :


With this topic in mind, I thought "why not put the material under the NOS1 you see in the below picture". And so I did;

My own NOS1 is plain on the floor for "years" by now, with the main reason of comfortably testing. The cover is not on, which may matter for my today's little story.
There is carpet on the floor with some percentage of wool (could be something like 80%). Under the four legs of the NOS1 there's this pink anti static material, known to those who bought the original NOS1 (we always delivered four pieces with it; in a later stage they became white).
This material was my explicit choice because of its structure - never mind everybody will think it is cr*p (which it is by itself of course). Now :

During playback, under each leg I put two of those white pieces from the picture below on to the pink pieces (the latter are ~10x10cm). Of course I imagined an immediate difference, but I learned to almost explicitly not pay attention to it; in a week or so I would know the result (let unconsiousness flow).

After I had applied this, I maybe played for another hour, then dinner was ready and sound was shutoff.
"Hey dad, there's a buzz, man !"
What the f... ?

It was so loud I really had to disconnect the interlinks before any dinner attempt.

After dinner I continued on it, and there was a clear 50Hz mains rattle. What the heck did I do to incur for this ? I didn't do a thing !

To the left of my NOS1 there was another NOS1 connected, which I tested earlier the afternoon. It was still under power, so I shut that off. Didn't help a thing. Removed the interlinks to the analyser. Didn't help. Checked the other nest of cabling - nothing. I just couldn't get it. This never happened before.

So, that other NOS1 (a black one), did not have any feet under it yet (yes, these days we ship with cheap normal little feet), so it could be shifted more towards the left, and away from my blue NOS1. What ? that helped ! Huh ?
When the power is off (which it was), both neutral and phase are cut, but protective earth keeps connected. So, something must be radiating or working as a(n unfinished !) antenna.
Now I took out the black NOS1 to another aera in the room, and ... hum got less again. But still not gone.
This didn't fit, because dozens of NOS1's had been there. Left, right, in front, more to the left. And in various colours too. Never there's hum. I don't want hum and I have officially banned it.
Aha.

I rearranged all the cabling once again (moved interlinks away from power cords etc.), but it didn't help a thing.

In beteen lines again : this is all about paying attention. I may be fairly good at it inherently, but it is also a matter of training yourself. Never let a change just go. Sort out what really happened, and try to explain the why of it. I know, for audio this should be somewhat more easy for me, but for everybody should count : be more explicit about it.

Ok, so this left that added white material under the legs for a reason. It already was suspicious to me, but first I had to be certain that all was in the state I'm used to, and nothing was overlooked so combinations of happenings/arrangements could be counted out;

With all under normal power (music not playing) I started with lifting one leg, and find the two white pieces under there. This is a kind of being careful operation because without cover the chassis is not as stiff of course, and PCBs might get wrenched.
The two white pieces where shoveled away from under there, and I carefully let sink the leg onto the pink material.
BANG. The sound of a small (very transient) firecracker emerged. Hmm ...
Did the second leg, and exactly the same happened. The third leg (now as carefully sinking the leg as I could do it) - same thing. Only at the fourth leg nothing happened anymore.

It was clear. This was electric discharge. But, not sure how it actually worked, because I sank the legs onto the ESD protective material. But, this material by now was some 4mm thick, originating from the ever 10mm. It flattends throughout time. Also, it is known that over time this (pink) material looses its protective capabilities to some extend (possibly all). Still it didn't feel like a discharge through it towards the woolen carpet. I merely envision a kind of lightning flash travelling over the underside of the bottom towards one of the other legs. And mind the last leg not "flahsing" anymore ...

Of course I can only try to think of what could have happened; I see some giant electric field under the bottom, there circling some 12 mm above the floor, caught by flat steel plate above it. How the white material encurs for it, apart from creating this ~8mm more distance compared to normal, I don't know. However it looks like a giant impact on how loaded (charged) electricity *was* guided away, and that this means changed completely (up to not working at all) with the white stuff under it.

Of course I don't need to tell you that the hum was gone after this ...

The moral :
How the chassis of an electrical apparatus connects to its surface is of vast importance. What the surface is, is therewith of evenly great importance;
When this is not done right (and sadly again this will differ per each of your situations), you close to *will* be confronted with a thing like my story above. And again (also see Paul's topic about similar), see the complexity in order. An *other* device - put next to the device in question - creates most of the hum, and it is not even powered on. It will do something to the antenna working though, and antennas will be everywhere in your room (sadly). While in this case that other NOS1 made it worse, it can just as well work out for the better; think transmitting antennas need a receptor, or otherwise your interlinks (etc.) will be just that.

This is why audio feet are important for quite another reason, and don't ask me the general guideline (I don't think it will exist). If this is not solved adequately first, I don't think there will be much sense in preventing sonic impacts as talked through in the before post. In the end, yes of course, but :

But you may wonder what it actually is when "a" material presents you better sound. I mean, nobody needs to tell me that my hum will have created better sound, and might one doubt : I tell you that it will have made it worse. But what was there to notice ? For you ? most probably a sheer nothing, because you wouldn't have heard the hum anyway, or you accepted it long ago. Besides you may use a preamp, and it won't be a problem ever.

Ah, is that so ...

Peter


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XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 14/28 cores in BIOS and set to 10/20 cores via Boot Menu) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/0/0/*1*/ Q1Factor = *4* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *10ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *10.13*  (max 10.13) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *62* / Nervous Rate = *1* / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filtering *Low* (16x) / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^3
A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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Tore
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« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2011, 09:50:44 am »


Plastic in  hifi electronics is bad for the sound. Plastic stores static electicity that is bad for the sound.

Have you tried to build NOS1 withoute plastic? (for example removeing plastic cap over capacitors, plastic in RCA connector etc.)
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Phasure Mach III, 12/24 core (Win 14393.0 on RAM-OS / controlled by RDC, / connected directly to music server / XXHighEnd 2.11 / Minimize OS / Engine#4 Adaptive / DB=4096 / Q1=10 / xQ1=15 / Q3,4,5=1 / SFS=0.69 max=140,19 /XTweaks = 35, 10, 0, 0, 0 / Straight Contiguous / Clock Resolution = 15ms / Scheme 3-5 (low/realtime) / Unattended) mobo USB3 port -> Lush^3 -> Phasure NOS1a B75 G3 ->  Blaxius^2.5 , Crazy A monoblocs, Avantgarde Duo Omega
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« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2011, 01:53:15 pm »

Quote
I see some giant electric field under the bottom, there circling some 12 mm above the floor, caught by flat steel plate above it.

Well, the H shape reminds me on a segment of a YAGI antenna, so maybe putting some NOS1 dacs in a row will improve the reception.  Grin
Just like the old days when I got 'radio Moskou' on my phono inputs.

Quote
Have you tried to build NOS1 withoute plastic? (for example removeing plastic cap over capacitors, plastic in RCA connector etc.)

Beewax, silk and wood seem to improve sound. Here's a (unfortunately Dutch) review of some DIY audiophiles that made a wooden enclosure around their elcaps. http://www.dhtrob.com/impressies/elna_inhout.shtml

And companies that sell wooden plugs http://nfo.dhtrob.com/ and natural material cables http://www.phy-hp.com/English/Products/Products.html


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i7 920, Asus MB, Windows 7 Home Premium 64 bit / 6 Gb RAM /no updates / music on SATAII  => XX V9z-6 / adaptive mode / XX buffer 4096 / Q1,2,3,4,5 = 5,0,0,0,0 / unattended / SFS 60 Mb memory straight contiguous / system clock 10ms / CPU Engine 3 / Threadprio RealTime / Playerprio Low / 16x Arc Prediction / Minimise OS / Peak Extend on / Phase invert off => NOS1 USB DAC => Aitos Pre and End amplifiers => PHY-HP KM30 open baffle.  NOT a single capacitor or coil from DAC chip to speaker
PeterSt
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« Reply #28 on: October 19, 2011, 06:40:25 pm »

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Beewax, silk and wood seem to improve sound. Here's a (unfortunately Dutch) review of some DIY audiophiles that made a wooden enclosure around their elcaps.

Yes, nice. I must have read this already many years back. Nothing for real production though (way too (much labor) expensive).

Btw, this too will be about (inside cap) resonance ...
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For the Stealth III LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - July 17, 2021 (2.11)
XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 14/28 cores in BIOS and set to 10/20 cores via Boot Menu) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/0/0/*1*/ Q1Factor = *4* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *10ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *10.13*  (max 10.13) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *62* / Nervous Rate = *1* / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filtering *Low* (16x) / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^3
A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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« Reply #29 on: October 19, 2011, 09:06:24 pm »

Btw, this too will be about (inside cap) resonance ...

Indeed, a capacitor should not resonate or vibrate (internally by the signal or externally by mechanical resonances) as this affects the sound.

This does not mean that it can't sound nicer though...

Bert
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Februari 1st: RDC controlled i7-4785T (set to 800Mhz - fully passive design without any moving parts), 16GB RAM / XXHighEnd 2.04c on 2GB RAMDisk (IMDisk) / Windows 10 Pro 10586.0 X64 on internal 250GB SSD / Music on external NAS / Playback Drive 10GB RAMDisk (IMDisk) / SFS 0.10 / Barbone Industrial Intona > Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) > Blaxius BNC interlink > BD-Design BD30-SPR amplifiers > BD-Design Custom Made Sigma loudspeakers.

XX settings basically similar to PeterSt's
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