The Data Based Generation of Replay - What's the Best Route to Sonic Nirvana?

[ZagatoV12]

Well, In another thread, I've just been reminded of how we are all searching, each in our own way, for our very own SQ heaven, all over again.

As a relative Newbie to the current generation of recording / replay technologies, I have once again come to the Crossroads. Having read a fair number of the posts on this forum and on Computer Audiophile over the past week, I am impressed with what has been achieved over the past decade or more. The Rise of Convenience over sound quality brings with it inevitable compromises, but even so, there is still much to be gained from each generation - if you are prepared to work at it.

After we all achieved such relatively high quality replay with the likes of Linn Sondek, Naim, Krell, Audio Research etc. I remember the huge fuss over the onset of the digital alternative when most audiophiles of the day thought that all their investments in vinyl and analogue would fade into disuse and subsequent oblivion. Remember Cassettes!? If you recall, it took from 1982 when they were first commerically available to roughly 1995-1998 before you could really achieve compelling, musical, involving replay again, but this time, from CD.

And here we are again, split again, between the persuasive  possibilities that mobility and convenience offers versus the holy grail journey you all seem to be enthusiastically undertaking to achieve the very same goals, this time from computer based replay.

I'm always hopeful that the next generation of technology will somehow facilitate the best combination of all these potential benefits. No matter how the industry evolves with new technological possibilities, the average level of quality and convenience always rises for the majority. However, with each major shift in the fundamental platform (analogue to digital for example), audiophiles have to 'start again'; perhaps not from scratch, but certainly close to it.

So, I can see that the journey ahead of me will be a familiar one, taking a different route to the same destination and just in case it isn't obvious from my original question on the other thread, my ultimate goal is to achieve the finest reproduction of the original musical performance that man can devise; at reasonable cost, I might add.

And so to my question. Knowing what you know today, if you were about to start this journey all over again, which route would you take and why? Budget aside.

Hopefully, some of you will graciously be able to set me off on the right path.

Many thanks

Mike

[Flecko]

No matter how the industry evolves with new technological possibilities, the average level of quality and convenience always rises for the majority

Yes and no. There is a trend which causes that more and more people listens to a bad hifi system. It has become too cheap to obtain a hifisytem. These cheap systems produces a sound that let you recognise the song that is playing but not hear music. People are used to that bad sound and the music industry increases the loudness every year to make those cheap hifi play music at sufficient loudness levels. Then this people maybe listen to a good system with such an "loud" record and for sure they do not see a point to spend more money for that system. It sounds as bad as on their 100€ system.
On the other hand there is technology available that can produce a very good sound for a price that was not possible 20years ago. At least in the digital "domain". But these system also has their price and are not in the 100€ league.

And so to my question. Knowing what you know today, if you were about to start this journey all over again, which route would you take and why? Budget aside.

I think this question will get 100 different answeres if you ask 100 people. To make it general from my point of view, the convinience factor has become very important for me. The hifi system has to work flawless. That can be a problem if you use computer audio and is the reason because I listen 99% of the time to a cd transport. To avoid this problem, there should be a dedicated machine, that is optimised for audio.
A big plus for computer audio is the price sound ratio.
If you summ up all the costs, you can get about the same sound from a 1000€ computer system as from a 3000€ CD transport (If you think of the computer as a digital source with external DAC).

If there is enough money available, I think Peters NOS1 is a must try. The new USB version should be independent of the software and parameters used.
I wouldn't buy a computer audio system that is dependent on paramteres, like operation system, services running, audio player software.... But this is a very new achievement.

[music33]

First let me say a very eloquent post.

"my ultimate goal is to achieve the finest reproduction of the original musical performance that man can devise; at reasonable cost, I might add."

as to your goal i would say that you need to define a couple of more things -
(1) time - how much time do you want to spend to achieve this goal.  if not much, find a system you like at your price point and mimic it or find a person who trust and have them tell you what to buy.  if you are like a lot of audiophiles, then time is measured in years and years of experimentation to find out what YOU like best.
(2) risk - there are some amazing people in this hobby, Peter being one of them, who sell amazing products at price points that blow away the main stream hi-end manufactuers.  however not everyone is comfortable buying equipment from small one man shops espicially if they are not local to them.
(3) ingenuity - if you have some ingenuity and can build equipment from plans (DIY) or be able to tweak them you can save a ton of money.

The beginning of this review (link below) sums up very nicely what I have learned.  If I was to start over again I would have direct lines with high quality cabling and receptacles.  It makes moderately priced equipment sound like high priced equipment plugged into cheap receptacles with non-direct lines.

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue56/sony_xa5400.htm

all this is just my humble opinion.

[ZagatoV12]

Thank you both Flecko and Music33.

In particular, thank you Music33 for the link. Very helpful.

As you say, I will get 100 different response from 100 different enthusiasts.  , which is what I was hoping for.

To put some more context into the discussion, and I hope many others feel they can chip in with their advice, I have at home in the UK, an Audio Research based system with their CD2 / DAC integrated player (getting on a bit now) at the front end, with a delightfully musical LS25 Vacuum Tube preamp into AR's VT100 amplifier connected through to a wonderful pair of Sonus Faber Guarneri speakers fed bi-wired; all connected throughout with Transparent Interconnects and Cables. In its day - fabulous.

Having rekindled my interest recently (and switched the ol' system on for the first time in a while), I discovered to my horror that the CD2 is giving up the ghost and I suspect it will not be repairable as parts would, by now, be unavailable. So, that made me wonder how best to front-end the existing system and before diving into an upgrade, I decided to look at what has changed in the meantime. Hence my arrival here on this forum. Of course I could just buy the latest and greatest from AR, but I wondered whether this would be an opportunity to review that system from scratch with maybe a computer based replay front end.

This conundrum is separate from building another, new, separate system at my place in the US, which is also a challenge (I bounce back and forth for work reasons) and may lead to a completely different approach altogether, hence my request for suggestions from all you far more experienced members here. So, bring on your recommendation, please!?

My grateful thanks for any and all advice received,

Mike

[juanpmar]

Hi Mike,

I recommend you to take the route of computer music with the new NOS1, that is supposed to sound better even than the current NOS1.
Just build a computer with Windows 7 Ultimate 64bits as silent as possible and with as much memory as possible. Connect it to the NOS1 and forget your preamp and cd player (sorry) or use them, at least the preamp, in your other system. That´s the best I can suggest  from my experience. I have an EMM Labs player resting without use and some time ago I sold also my Supratek Dual tube preamp. And I don´t miss it. 
You won´t regret.

Juan

[PeterSt]

Hey Mike,

I have been thinking about this for a few days, until yesterday I finally found something useful to say to you. Well, sort-ish ...

Gererally, there won't be much reason to start all over. Ok, when one is addicted to vinyl maybe, and drop that. Other the other way around maybe (don't !).
Similar would be like going from CDPlayer to PC playback. It is a kind of explicit reason, but a crazily hard way if you are not sure what you are doing. Things for almost sure will sound worse at first, and the "years of" like someone talked about could be applicable.

So, I *did* start all over, but for me it was the empirical findings about what to improve since something didn't sound right. I ended up with a complete new system (really unintended at first), and my strategy has been (or had become) speed. Speed is a logical thing where one can hook into. Like the slew rate we talkec about in the other topic.

If I now had to start all over, it would be explicitly about speed. Just because that works out (also see the GainClone topic). I have no idea with what I would end up with, and nothing tells me it will be the same as I have now. Ok, the NOS1 would be in there (explicitly made for speed as nothing else I think), but further ? no idea.

Speed is not all there is, although very theoretically and well-approached it should be. And then I talk about speed with uncompromised performance in the distortion department. It should go along with eachother, but I would prefer measurement to see it's allright.

I, for 200% sure would start out spending 10K euro on a measurent device. They come way more expensive, but what can be done with them additionally is not necessary. So, 10K and you have nothing really yet. BUT, now you'd have the sheer opportunity to litterally measure your strategy. So yes, the "speed" strategy is a convenient one, because it can be measures.

Now, assumed the NOS1 is something taken for granted (dangerous maybe, but I really would do that myself hahaha), all what is left is amps and speakers.
Amps is theoretically easy, because they can be measured. But, keep in mind the strategy, and never think an amp must add colour. Whether this results in the coldest amp possible I am not sure, but I guess that will be the case. Now keep in mind that *nothing* will sound cold, once it is processed well. It just won't no matter what you may think of it.

So, amps are in now. Last is speakers (hey, did you notice I followed the general audiophile route upside down ?).
All is perfectly 1:1 in front of them, so now it comes down to listening. I would NOT measure speakers. It is too difficult and needs too much expertise from actually someone who builds them, and even still that would be a subjective picture (because : measuering speaers IMHHO just can not be done properly). BUT ... the strategy must be good.

It is here where you may make important decisions, like "what type of speaker". This hugely matters. I won't say that I chose horns because of their speed, but you can well say that I chose them because they show much more resolution than another design can. Why ? oh well, because it is about speed with horns. This is an aftermath for me, but it is.

Don't get yourself horns because someone tells you that speed is important. This is a kind of BS. But, compare it with the normal radiating types (horns are directional), up to open baffle. Sound from either is totally different, and now your subjective likings come into play. But :
Never forget to calc-in that speed, because or your speaker can't cope and highs (and bass !!) are wrong, or it can and it will sound better for just that reason. Subjectiveness for the "nice warmer sound" may be the wrong idea here. IT MUST SOUND REAL AND IT CAN THESE DAYS. Just because I tell you ...


Preceeding everything there is the software, assuming that was your first choice anyway, because it is the best way to go (again, says me, but trust me). It is important too. But no worries for now, because it easily can be changed, and won't cost you much, if something at all. But, again an NOS1 assumed, the software looks as set too.


Yes, it needs a dose of trust, which is different from believing a story which just as well could be a commercial. On that matter, you can just as well believe *anyone* in here, like the texts already in this topic. There is no one in this forum that I no of, who blatters around without fundation. And if that happens, it will be me saying something about it.

What is important for you (or anyone) is that you can judge the references right. Like in the Gainclone topic, where someone starts something with loudspeaker cables, that someone owning Gainclones + an NOS1 - and next I would blindly start making those cables (or buy them).
All (ALL !) is about proper references, and on this matter everybody in here is such a reference on his own because of using XXHighEnd and really no different views on the results (all is quiet these days because it's all a kind of set, but notice the past 4 years). You will find this nowhere else.

This was my little story. More will exist (and do already). Don't take anything for granted (also not from me), but make it consistent. This is the same how I read reviews. This is the best eh ? aha, the before review as well, And the before And ... ditch that. Get into the persons instead, and learn from elsewhere how they really are. Could be Juan from above. Dig up his great topic on how to build that PC. It is a good start, because in the end needed too. But it also is a best start, because he layed it all out the very best and detailed, plus it's not "old" yet.

Peter

[manisandher]

Knowing what you know today, if you were about to start this journey all over again, which route would you take and why?

Hi Mike, this is an interesting question. And I really don't have anything very insightful to share with you I'm afraid. But I felt compelled to respond nevertheless.

The only thing I know is that I wouldn't go the 'traditional' route of approaching an 'high-end' dealer. Last week, in my search for the perfect amp, I spoke to a number of such dealers (in the UK) over the phone. And my God, did they invariably drive me up the wall within a minute or so. I mean, their sheer arrogance... They'd ask me what I'd got and I could just hear in the tone of their voices their total disgust that none of it was the branded stuff they peddle for a living. And you know what, I don't think they really know much about the 'faithful reproduction of sound'... or that they really care.

I wish you all the best on your own journey. My advice: follow your own path, or failing that just follow the wise on this forum.

Mani.

[arvind]

Hi Mike,

Firstly, there is no route to Sonic Nirvana; its very relative & depends on one's own perception of sound/music.

Vinyl is probably considered as the best source but in my opinion a very difficult medium to handle. Comparing CDT/CDP vs Computer Audio, I feel that if rightly done, CA gives out better sound & has ease of operation & flexibility.

The audio gear that you have is really good & personally I wouldnt change from the AR preamp to the Sonus Faber speakers. If you go with CA all you need is a well configured PC, (specs are available in the forum discussions) XXHE software player & a good DAC like the NOS 1 USB or equivalent.

All the best,

Arvind