HOW I´VE BUILT MY NEW PC FOR XXHIGHEND AND WHY I´VE CHOSEN THE COMPONENTS

[AlainGr]

I read the Intel paper with great interest, mostly the ruggedness and reliability of the enterprise hard drives.

You should not be worried about the fact that they mention "RAID". They will work fine as standalones. We do have a few old servers in our company that do not have RAID specs (one that goes back to 2001) and they are still working. RAID is a method that can provide for more protection against data loss (and/or speed depending on the kind of RAID), but it does not change a thing about their reliability and ruggedness.

Yes they are normally rugged and reliable, but you should verify if they allow as many Start/Stop cycles, since they are conceived to work 24/7. Generally speaking, they would allow at least 50,000 Start/Stop cycles.

I assume that when you talk about enterprise HDD, you are still talking about Sata drives ? I ask this since there are also SAS drives (the connections look the same, but they require a controller generally not found or a standard desktop motherboard). Just mentionning.

As for SQ, I can't tell... Peter could chime in ?

Alain

[juanpmar]

No drives we use run 24/7 unless you set them to that in Power Management. Not sure whether this is your angle though (really running them 24/7).

But to be honest, I never before heard of such a thing (like : more reliable because of for businenesses). But I guess it exists ...

Hi Peter, 24/7 is interesting just because it is a proof of reliability and roughness, also because I usually have the music Pc turned On 24/7 like the NOS1 and the rest of the system, of course I can turn Off the external drives.

Enterprise drives are more reliable and protected against vibrations which is always important.
Here are some extracts to save you the time to read the whole document (Intel Paper) that I put in the other post:

Enterprise-class drives generally incorporate internal mechanisms that allow faster data access and retrieval. These features include heavier actuator magnets, faster spindle speeds, denser magnetic media, and faster drive electronic components with more cache memory and faster hard drive micro-processor speeds.

-Vibrations
The source of vibration that can affect drive operation can come from moving components within a system, such as fans and neighboring hard drives. Vibration from fans can be transmitted through the system chassis to hard drives, and vibration from a drive can be transferred to another drive, or from the drive to the system and then reflected back to the originating drive. While data is read from or written to a disk, these vibrations can push the read/write head out of alignment with the data track. Failure to compensate for vibration induced misalignment can result in data that is written or read off track. This increases the possibility that an off-track write could corrupt data in an adjoining track, or that an off-track read could result in incorrect data or data that cannot be located or read. Some forms of misalignment compensation can have a dramatic impact on performance due to the time required to spin the data target location back under the read/write head. Performance loss of up to 90% has been observed in some tests. The amount of performance loss is dependent on the frequency and strength of the vibration.

- Misalignment detection
Most drives incorporate multiple “servo wedges” in the track. Most desktop drives do not have dedicated servo and data path processors or the firmware compensation algorithms that make them more susceptible to RV (Rotational Vibrations) errors, which results in poor performance due to vibration. Most enterprise class drives have dedicated servo and data path processors with servo algorithms in the drive firmware to enforce this compensation. Enterprise class drives are able to more effectively detect and compensate for vibration.

- Enterprise class drives use ECC for data passing through drive memory and may use additional error detection methods for data transmitted within the drive electronics. The form of this error detection and correction capability is usually proprietary to the drive vendor. Desktop drives do not have this data protection feature within drive memory, If a data error occurs in memory it will not be detected. The error will be transmitted to the next stage in the drive electronics, and the error will be propagated to the drive media or to the host device. This type of error becomes very difficult to detect and can affect operating system stability or client data reliability.

I read the Intel paper with great interest, mostly the ruggedness and reliability of the enterprise hard drives.

You should not be worried about the fact that they mention "RAID". They will work fine as standalones. We do have a few old servers in our company that do not have RAID specs (one that goes back to 2001) and they are still working. RAID is a method that can provide for more protection against data loss (and/or speed depending on the kind of RAID), but it does not change a thing about their reliability and ruggedness.
Yes they are normally rugged and reliable, but you should verify if they allow as many Start/Stop cycles, since they are conceived to work 24/7. Generally speaking, they would allow at least 50,000 Start/Stop cycles.
I assume that when you talk about enterprise HDD, you are still talking about Sata drives ? I ask this since there are also SAS drives (the connections look the same, but they require a controller generally not found or a standard desktop motherboard). Just mentionning.
As for SQ, I can't tell... Peter could chime in ?

Alain

Thanks Alain, yes the hdd I´m thinking on is a SATA drive. The problem could come with the ERC (Error Recovery Control), for more information please read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Error_recovery_control.

I think that I´ll get the WD RE4 WD5003ABYX 500GB drive anyway to test it, I have 7 days to return it if I get problems with it. http://www.amazon.com/Western-Digital-Cache-Enterprise-Drive/dp/B003SALVN4

Juan

[AlainGr]

Hi Juan,

Very interesting link indeed I was not aware about this. Maybe my comprehension is not right, but if the TLER is adjusted to 7 seconds, I guess that it is mostly to comply with RAID controllers, but I (still I could be wrong) guess that not using a RAID controller does not change the fact that this drive carries a 5 year warranty, plus that it is considered an "enterprise" HDD... I would be confident with this drive

Have you checked Seagate ? The Constellation 3.5in model seems interesting also...

As of now, I like the Black Caviar Western Digital 3.5in for desktops, as it carries a 5 year warranty and they seem quite durable. But as I understand things now, the method for reliability differs between the 2 categories.

But I find very interesting that you can try the drive and return it even if it works fine

I hope you will come back with your impressions with that drive.

Regards,

Alain

[PeterSt]

But I find very interesting that you can try the drive and return it even if it works fine

Is that so ?

[juanpmar]

Hi Juan,

I (still I could be wrong) guess that not using a RAID controller does not change the fact that this drive carries a 5 year warranty, plus that it is considered an "enterprise" HDD... I would be confident with this drive

Have you checked Seagate ? The Constellation 3.5in model seems interesting also...

As of now, I like the Black Caviar Western Digital 3.5in for desktops, as it carries a 5 year warranty and they seem quite durable. But as I understand things now, the method for reliability differs between the 2 categories.

But I find very interesting that you can try the drive and return it even if it works fine

I hope you will come back with your impressions with that drive.

Alain, it doesn´t matter if you use it in a Raid configuration or not to preserve the 5 years warranty, it is not mandatory to use it in RAID. At least I haven´t read anything about it.

The Constellation seems similar to the WD but it has much less feedbacks than the WD and if you read the Western Digital WD RE4 WD5003ABYX feedbacks e.g. in Newegg you´ll see that this drive is considered a kind of Rolls Royce of the hdds among the users. Many of the people there, in Newegg, use it as an independent driver.
On the other hand now I use a Seagate Barracuda (LaCie) as Playback Drive and the sound is very good, but the same way I did with the other components in my music system I like to investigate further and, why don´t try this WD hdd if it is one of the best?. I mean considering the special facts like that it is built thinking on vibrations and the other things we were talking about.
Of course I´ll share my experience with it, I´ll get it here in a few more days.

But I find very interesting that you can try the drive and return it even if it works fine

Is that so ?

I can return it in 7 days with no questions about it if I keep the hdd and the box in perfect condition. Here is where I bought it (but in Pixmanía Spain). In this site the Satisfait ou remboursé is for 15 days, so even better than where I bought it http://www.pixmania.com/fr/fr/8165562/art/western-digital/disque-dur-interne-re4-wd.html

Juan

[PeterSt]

So, we all find more "types" of these, try them out and return them ? hahaha


PS: By coincidence I had a 1TB LaCie (looked like an SSD but was not) in my system as playback drive. Don't know the type. But the sound was totally aweful !

[juanpmar]

So, we all find more "types" of these, try them out and return them ? hahaha

Sure! we all can make a testers gang and "buy" a different hdd each one of us, so no one will be the only baddie 

PS: By coincidence I had a 1TB LaCie (looked like an SSD but was not) in my system as playback drive. Don't know the type. But the sound was totally aweful !

Uhmmm, then maybe mine is also awful...and I was thinking that my sound was terrific... I need to listen personally your system asap!, jeje

[PeterSt]

I'm fairly sure is was this one : http://www.lacie.com/products/product.htm?id=10518

BUT, it was not self externally powered (we didn't). That could be a problem ...

Peter

[juanpmar]

Mine is physically  similar but inside is a Seagate 7200rpm 230Gb, it is USB 2.0 and it is externally powered. I have it from around 5 years or more.

[PeterSt]

Then yours will sound better.

[juanpmar]

After some time testing some hdds for Playback Drive I´ve come to some conclusions:

First, let me tell you that I compared the following units:

- USB 3.0 32Gb pen drive
- WD Elements USB 3.0 1Tb, self powered
- LaCie (Seagate Barracuda), 230Gb, 7200rpm, 8Mb cache, USB 2.0, externally powered.
- WD RE4 WD5003ABYX, 500Gb, 7200rpm, 64Mb cache, externally powered.

I tested the WD RE4 with some different connections like SATA, eSATA, USB 2.0 and USB 3.0. The LaCie was connected with the USB 2.0 directly to the computer and through an USB 3.0 hub.
To do that I used some Sharkoon SATA QuickDeck, one with eSATA and USB 2.0 connections and other with USB 3.0 connection (I returned the one with USB 3.0 because I can´t reboot the computer with it connected and I used in place of it a TooQ Prodata Series USB 3.0 external case that works flawlessly)^*1. The USB 3.0 and USB 2.0 were connected to a powered USB 3.0 hub and directly to the computer. The SATA and eSATA were connected directly to the computer.

Soon I discarded the two first ones in the list because the sound seemed too cold and lifeless, so I concentrate in the other two.

The WD makes a sound that is really clear, vigorous, clean, it seems to me that it is more true to the real music, in other words less euphonic. It doesn´t mean in any way that the sound is cold or something like that, no, the sound seems to be like the real recorded sound is, that´s the feeling I get listening this WD RE4.
The LaCie hdd, on the other hand is a little more veiled or, better I´d say smoother, but I wouldn´t use that word because the WD is also smooth if the recorded music is that way, I´d better say that the LaCie reproduce the music giving the sense that there is some less information than with the WD.
The information with the WD RE4 is outstanding, I heard things in some albums that I listened hundreds of times that never heard before, some details, subtle sounds...
In my opinion this WD RE4 makes a fantastic hdd for Playback Drive.
I´m going to use also the LaCie as Playback Drive. In fact I´m using both drives as it is very easy and fast to change from one to the other in XXHighEnd. When I use the LaCie?, well not very often really because I´m in love with the WD sound, however I´d say that I sympathize with the LaCie in some way. I´d use it e.g. if I had a party or a casual reunion in my home and I´d have some background music. If I´m alone listening music I´d use the WD RE4 unless...I wanted to listen an album that would be very brilliant, and even so...

So in my opinion it is a great discovery this WD RE4, but let me tell you that, as Peter says in the tutorial, the Playback Drive sound depends on many things like where it is connected and I guess it depends also on the other components you have in your computer. But anyway I recommend it, just read the specification and you´ll see that all can be for the better like e.g. the control of vibrations and in general the way it is built.

I posted this test here, and not in the topic "Playback Drive drive" because I have some other parts that now I use in my Music Pc like the SSD for Galleries. It doesn´t have any influence in sound but it makes the selection of music much faster. Mine is a 128GB Crucial m4 SATA 6Gb/s (SATA III). I connected it to a SATA 6Gb port and goes really fast.
Btw there is not different SATA cables for Sata I, II, III or for 6Gb/s. All SATA cables can work with all SATA connections, the only think you must take care of is to buy a good quality one, that´s it. For more information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_ATA


I´d like also to give some ideas to the ones that use a laptop as Music Pc, they also can make big improvements for no much money.

- Buy an USB 3.0 card if your laptop doesn´t have any USB 3.0 port, with maybe two ports and if it´s possible look for an externally powered card. Maybe you´ll need also a powered USB 3.0 hub to connect some other drives (for Playback Drive or for a hdd with your music files).

- Get an old hdd no matter if it is only 200 Gb or so, and use it for Playback Drive. If it is USB 2.0 or IDE use an adaptor to connect it to the USB 3.0 ports. Of course you can buy for less than 100€ a very good external hdd USB 3.0, no need more than 500Gb, it is important that this hdd be externally powered (as a general rule use always devices with external power).

- You can put your Galleries in an USB 3.0 pen drive connected to one of the hub ports.

Total cost?, depends on the hdd you get but I´d say that even with a good external USB 3.0 the total wouldn´t surpass 200€. If you use an old IDE hdd with an USB adaptor the total cost could be around 120€.

With just that you can play a lot and enjoy the music in a way that probably you haven´t imagined before.

Best regards,
Juan

^*1
Sharkoon adapters:
http://www.sharkoon.com/?q=en/content/sata-quickdeck-pro

http://www.sharkoon.com/?q=en/content/sata-quickdeck

TooQ Prodata Series USB 3.0 external case:
http://www.tooq.es/product_detail.php?id=1463

[PeterSt]

Thank you Juan ...

[juanpmar]

Some little things that can help to get better sound, I´m using these two...:

Against vibrations in the Playback Drive: http://www.sharkoon.com/?q=en/node/915

To clean the power just for the USB 3.0 hub and Playback Drive: http://www.psaudio.com/~psaudio/ps/products/detail/duet-power-center

Now the sound is even better!

Juan

[juanpmar]

I tested the WD RE4 WD5003ABYX that I use as Playback Drive connected directly to the TeckNet USB 3.0 PCI Express Card and the sound now is even clearer and more detailed, fantastic!!. A very noticeable improvement. (Thanks Praphan!).

So I don´t use anymore the USB 3.0 hub to connect the Playback Drive. I´ll use from now on the hub just to connect other external hdds with music files.

Best regards,
Juan

P.D. For the ones interested in HOW TO BUILD MY NEW PC... I recommend to check once in a while the Updates in the first post of this topic.

[praphan]

I tested the WD RE4 WD5003ABYX that I use as Playback Drive connected directly to the TeckNet USB 3.0 PCI Express Card and the sound now is even clearer and more detailed, fantastic!!. A very noticeable improvement. (Thanks Praphan!).

Credit to you Juan !!   

I have been so busy with work and just follow you recommendation on WD5003ABYX. Spot on. This enterprise drive is the best I tested so far. I also had best result by directly connect it to Star Tech PCIe USB3 card. With this connection, you don't need to use on MOBO USB3 and hence I recommend you to disable it in the BIOS.

Best regards,
Praphan