HOW I´VE BUILT MY NEW PC FOR XXHIGHEND AND WHY I´VE CHOSEN THE COMPONENTS

[juanpmar]

Thanks guys, I´ll try to make some tests with the external drives while we wait for the new XX version. Who knows if all of this experiments will be of some use once the new 0.9z-7 arrives.

Brian, about the room treatment, the best non technical and more practical treatment is to put some shelves with plenty of books on the walls, the front and rear wall can be similar but just try to put something different in the left than in the right wall.
As you can see I use those Ikea thick boards under the amps, dac and computer. When I use two of them like under the amps and also under the NOS1 I use some mouse pads to stop the vibrations. Not high tech but it works very well.

My room is (L.W.H) 7 x 4,95 x 3,03 mts. A little narrower in the rear wall.

Juan,

The USB3 disc I use for my normal audio PC is
a. connected through a powered USB3 hub;
b. the disc (enclosure) itself is powered as well (if that still matters at all).

I'm pretty sure this setup is a good thing for SQ.
Notice that the music files still are where they always were (as far as I know they are all SATAII, but some will be SATAIII connected - by "accident")

Peter

Thanks Peter, so far I only have an USB 3.0 drive powered by the USB bus, however I notice some improvement.

About SATA II and III I have to investigate a little further.

I don´t understand what you mean with "Notice that the music files still are where they always were". I put the files directly in the USB 3.0 drive, is there some other way to do it?.

Juan

[CoenP]

The USB3 disc I use for my normal audio PC is
a. connected through a powered USB3 hub;
b. the disc (enclosure) itself is powered as well (if that still matters at all).

I'm pretty sure this setup is a good thing for SQ.

So the hub is also part of the setup. If I read it well both the enclosure and hub have their own supplies (not via an usb3 port).
Those are probably switching supplies. Soon I will have the means to check Nicks tweak #3 (seperate liear power for the sata devices).

I wondered about Juans difference is the sound of rips to os disc of to a separate music disc. This is really odd, bits should remain bits wherever they are stored. Do they have the same hash (md5)? If so then it must be either due to differences in connection (sata ports, cables, powersupply cables), disc (production tolerances, country of manufacture) or formatting/filing (sector size, disc type). Can we rule any of these out?

Regards, Coen
Regards, Coen

[boleary]

Thanks Juan, looks like I'll be making a trip to IKEA. Enjoyed the photo's too!

Brian

[juanpmar]

Well, at least that most dedicated (and very good sounding PC I built plays from SATAIII ...

Peter 

I´m a little confused about the hhd configuration to store the music files. In the PC you build you have the music in an internal SATA III hhd. You also use an external (powered) USB 3.0 hhd in your normal audio PC, this hhd connected through an also powered USB3 hub, in your opinion "this setup is a good thing for SQ".
I´m planning to rebuild some parts of my music PC now that XX 09z-7 has been released and I´d like to start with the music hhd.
Could you explain a little the differences in SQ you have found in between both, the Internal SATA III and the external powered USB 3.0 hhd?

BTW, I can´t find your post about the PC you build for sale and I´d like to take a look. Could you post the link please?

Best regards,
Juan

[PeterSt]

Hey Juan,

In the PC you build you have the music in an internal SATA III hhd.

Not that I know of.
There's an OS disc which is fixed internally and which is SATAII and the 3 removable bays are SATAIII. Neither of those is meant to contain music discs, although they can of course. But music discs are meant to connect to USB3. Notice though that this is only to reach "infinity" for storage capacity (also using USB3 hubs).
The difference in sound is unknown to me, because I just never tried.

You also use an external (powered) USB 3.0 hhd in your normal audio PC, this hhd connected through an also powered USB3 hub, in your opinion "this setup is a good thing for SQ".

Did I say that somewhere ? I don't know. But the reason I just gave above as it is the same reason. Well, almost ...

The USB3 connected disc (which is one only at this time just because I never found the time to move the internal pile to the USB3 discs I have laying around for close to a year by now) is the famous "Playback Drive" you may have seen from 0.9z-7 by now. And from *that* I say it's good for sound;

If you are not confused yet I will make you confused now :
This (Playback Drive thing) is not related to USB3 at all and worse, for the PC we build that "Drive" (hence hdd) is to be in one of the removale bays.

So ... what I read back from a few of you is that USB3 connected hdds would be good for SQ. I don't think I ever said that. But that doesn't make it untrue. I just never tried (and really, I try to stay out of this hocus pocus which may or may nor work, and rather concentrate on things which will work independently of "hocus pocus". Cheap USB cable for the NOS1 could be an example of that).

Is it clear a little ? I hope so ! But otherwise ask ahead.

I´m planning to rebuild some parts of my music PC now that XX 09z-7 has been released

Juan, you are out of shape ! haha. I mean : no 0.9z-7 has been released that I kow of.

Here the topic about the XXHighEnd PC : CPU considerations.

[juanpmar]

The USB3 connected disc (which is one only at this time just because I never found the time to move the internal pile to the USB3 discs I have laying around for close to a year by now) is the famous "Playback Drive" you may have seen from 0.9z-7 by now. And from *that* I say it's good for sound;

If you are not confused yet I will make you confused now :
This (Playback Drive thing) is not related to USB3 at all and worse, for the PC we build that "Drive" (hence hdd) is to be in one of the removale bays.

Is it clear a little ? I hope so ! But otherwise ask ahead.

I´m planning to rebuild some parts of my music PC now that XX 09z-7 has been released

Juan, you are out of shape ! haha. I mean : no 0.9z-7 has been released that I kow of.

Here the topic about the XXHighEnd PC : CPU considerations.

Thank you Peter. Yes, it is clear a little, he, he, but not totally  , I guess that once I get some more control over the 09z-7 settings it will be clearer, of course  once it has been released!!

Peter, could you tell me please what´s the brand name/model of the external USB 3.0 hub and powered USB 3.0 hdd you have?

At the end, what I wanted is to know more about the differences in SQ between the internal SATA III vs. external USB 3.0 used for music storage. Any comment from the ones with some experience about it is welcome.

Best regards,
Juan

[CoenP]

At the end, what I wanted is to know more about the differences in SQ between the internal SATA III vs. external USB 3.0 used for music storage. Any comment from the ones with some experience about it is welcome.

I only have experience with my music disk on XXHE v9-06c and this didn't turn out for the better. What I took for extra space and detail was actually accompanied by a mean harsh glare. I blamed it on the casing's switching PSU, but a linear (lab) supply brought no improvement.

Aspects that may matter: no hub was in place, I bought a quite generic not-too-expensive-on-stock ICIDU 12V 3,5" casing and had to use the packaged USB3 cable. I connected it on the remaining USB3 port of my PCI-e card (mobo USB3 is off).

I don't know how this works out for v9-07 and when used in Peter's abovementioned fashion. I am not risking 1,8Gig of music  .

regards, Coen

[PeterSt]

I am not risking 1,8Gig of music

That's 3 CDs. Ok, 6 in FLAC.

[PeterSt]

Peter, could you tell me please what´s the brand name/model of the external USB 3.0 hub and powered USB 3.0 hdd you have?

Hi Juan,

The USB3 hdd is a "Medion". It's 2TB and in a beautiful piano black enclosure. Believe it or not, but it was 66 euros (ex VAT) and came with USB3 cable as well. There's also a eSata connection. I bought all I could get (which was 4). http://download1.medion.com/downloads/anleitungen/bda_20047837.pdf
But these can't be bought anymore, as far as I know. The replacement (which I just tried to find) doesn't look as nice I think.

The hub came from HongKong was was hard to find in it's 7 ports version (back then). It is as piano black too by accident. I think this is the one :
http://www.amazon.com/Uspeed-Cable-Adapter-Backward-Compatible/dp/B006TT91TW/ref=pd_cp_e_0/186-7244552-4957921
http://usb.brando.com/usb-3-0-superspeed-7-port-hub_p02384c061d015.html

Peter

[CoenP]

I am not risking 1,8Gig of music

That's 3 CDs. Ok, 6 in FLAC.

OK, I'm a dynosaur, this is not 1992 anymore!
I need more time to get used to GHz and Tbytes .

regards, Coen

[juanpmar]

Peter, could you tell me please what´s the brand name/model of the external USB 3.0 hub and powered USB 3.0 hdd you have?

Hi Juan,

The USB3 hdd is a "Medion". It's 2TB and in a beautiful piano black enclosure. Believe it or not, but it was 66 euros (ex VAT) and came with USB3 cable as well. There's also a eSata connection. I bought all I could get (which was 4). http://download1.medion.com/downloads/anleitungen/bda_20047837.pdf
But these can't be bought anymore, as far as I know. The replacement (which I just tried to find) doesn't look as nice I think.

The hub came from HongKong was was hard to find in it's 7 ports version (back then). It is as piano black too by accident. I think this is the one :
http://www.amazon.com/Uspeed-Cable-Adapter-Backward-Compatible/dp/B006TT91TW/ref=pd_cp_e_0/186-7244552-4957921
http://usb.brando.com/usb-3-0-superspeed-7-port-hub_p02384c061d015.html

Peter

Thanks Peter,

This is the Medion I´ve found although it is 1Tb not 2Tb like the ones you have: http://www.medion.com/gb/electronics/prod/MEDION%C2%AE+P83771+1TB+3.5%22+USB+3.0+HDDrive-n-go+%28MD90175%29/50038078A1?category=external_hdd_61

And in Amazon is possible to find the hub: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B006TTA75Y/ref=s9_simh_se_p147_d0_i1?pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_s=auto-no-results-center-1&pf_rd_r=4F6F6FA2DD5C4C5883FF&pf_rd_t=301&pf_rd_p=240112507&pf_rd_i=HDDrive-n-go

About the hub it is important to have one with enough current to drive well the hdds. Each external hdd needs 900mA, the hdds must have its own power supply if the total current exceeds the one provided by the hub.

I´ve found also a couple of hubs with 3.5/4A just in case someone could be interested:
- LogiLink UA0091: http://www.amazon.es/LogiLink-UA0091-5000-Mbit-3-5/dp/B003EC6H94/ref=zg_bs_937877031_3
- DeLOCK USB 3.0 External HUB 4 Port: http://www.amazon.es/gp/product/B003URZAMI/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?ie=UTF8&smid=A1AT7YVPFBWXBL

Peter, I have a couple of questions about the external hdd and its connections. You said that the Medion has also an eSata connection, I wonder if you have tested it or if you think that could be a good idea to get an external hard drive with this kind of connection besides the USB 3.0.

What I´m also considering is to get out the internal WD hdd where I have the music stored and use some kind of docking station like these ones:
- Sharkoon SATA QuickDeck Pro (24.95€): http://www.sharkoon.com/?q=en/content/sata-quickdeck-pro
- Sharkoon SATA QP U3 FireWire (?€), it has USB 3.0, eSata and FireWire connections: http://www.sharkoon.com/?q=en/node/2237

There are more docking stations for 2,5", 3,5" and SSD hdds with different connections.

What do you think about this idea?.

Best regards,
Juan

[juanpmar]

I´m, once in a while looking how to update the hardware in my music Pc. Lately it is the turn of hdds and now I´m thinking if the Enterprise hdd could be a good choice. Although now I´m primarily thinking on using it for Playback Drive could it be also an interesting election for other uses in the music Pc.

In my music Pc there are four different kind of drives determined by the use I give them. As a general rule for a hdd the faster the better, but to be more specific this is what I have, well I better would say I should have because e.g. I use an USB 3.0 (30Gb) pendrive for Galleries instead an SSD:

- One hdd where the OS and XXHighEnd resides. This must be fast and not necessarily big (120-300Gb)

- One hdd where the Galleries resides. Must be fast. Can be a SSD drive, 60-120Gb can be enough.

- Several hdds where the music resides. Big (2Tb or more) and not necessarily as fast as the others.

- One Playback Drive hdd. This is the one that condition the SQ. How must it be?, I´m not sure besides that it must be fast and not necessarily big, that´s why I´m going to try different connections and hdds. There are different experiences here in the forum that I read. There are some people having good results with hdds with 5900rpm or 7200rpm, SATA II, SATA III, eSata, USB 2.0 or USB 3.0, with more or less cache size, etc. At the end not a final conclusion on what is best.
Of course you can use an external USB 3.0 hdd for Playback drive and forget about it but I want to be sure what is the best choice.

In order to try the different connections I´ve bought two external cases with USB 3.0 and eSATA, this way I can check the differences in SQ with different drives and connections :

http://www.sharkoon.com/?q=en/content/sata-quickdeck-pro

http://www.sharkoon.com/?q=en/content/sata-quickdeck

Why I´m thinking about Enterprise hdds?. Because they have some important qualities: they are fast, reliable, can be run 24/7 and have extra protection against vibrations. The problem is that they are primarily made for RAID and I don´t want to use it in RAID and I don´t know either if this kind of hdd can be used as an stand alone hdd. Some people say yes, others say not. Some help on this issue is welcome..
By the moment I´d use this Enterprise hdd as Playback Drive to see how it is going on, I´m thinking on this hdd:http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136697.

Here it is an Intel Paper that explains the differences between Enterprise drives and Desktop drives. I think that can be important also for Sound Quality, please read mostly the parts about vibration and Data integrity (1.1.4.2, 1.1.4.3, 1.1.4.4, 1.1.4.5): http://download.intel.com/support/motherboards/server/sb/enterprise_class_versus_desktop_class_hard_drives_.pdf

Best regards,
Juan

[PeterSt]

Hi Juan,

http://www.sharkoon.com/?q=en/node/2237

I have a couple of these, and they are totally unreliable. Not in all situations, but you will run into it when using them. And for example, with USB3 over an USB3 hub, forget it at all.

I don't know what this tells about the other Sharkoon types, but I'd say : avoid them.

Don't know more ...
Peter

[juanpmar]

Thanks Peter, too late because I´ve already ordered it. About using the USB 3.0 QuickDeck with the USB 3.0 hub I don´t see a reason to use it if you can connect the powered QuickDeck directly to an USB 3.0 port in the mb. Well, the only reason could be that I have already the USB 3.0 pen drive (Galleries) connected to the hub and if I want to use it I´ll have two USB 3.0 connected at the same time in the mb. If that matters I don´t know.
What worries me more is about the Enterprise drive I mentioned before, I´m not sure if that´s a good choice because if it has some bad sector at any time will be difficult to recover it due to the firmware which is prepared for RAID with a short time (8 seconds) to recover the drive making it unusable.
Other possibility is this hdds that is prepared for running 24/7 http://wdc.com/en/products/products.aspx?id=150

Juan

[PeterSt]

Juan,

No drives we use run 24/7 unless you set them to that in Power Management. Not sure whether this is your angle though (really running them 24/7).

But to be honest, I never before heard of such a thing (like : more reliable because of for businenesses). But I guess it exists ...

Regards,
Peter