NOS1 and Power Supply

[Scroobius]

I am interested in other users experiences. I have always understood that a computer is very bad thing to have on the same power supply as the hifi system. All that high frequency hash!!!. So I went to much trouble to install a separate spur just for hifi (but not as much trouble as Mani went with his!!). I am just about to install my NOS1 with the idea that NOS1 goes on the hifi spur and the computer goes on the main house ring main. No problem with that except that if the house ring trips then the sound card could end up as toast. So it would make sense to have NOS1 and PC on the same supply with the PC on auto restart after a power cut.

I was just wondering if anyone out there has tested NOS1 & PC on the same ring versus on a separate ring? Does it affect sound quality?

I am still waiting for my PC to arrive  so I cannot listen to my new NOS1 which is currently sitting there in the corner of my room with me hotly anticipating how it is going to sound.

By the way Peter I was very impressed that you put my initials "PC" on the top cover a really nice touch that   

PC

[praphan]

I am interested in other users experiences. I have always understood that a computer is very bad thing to have on the same power supply as the hifi system. All that high frequency hash!!!.

Hi PC,

I got the PM from Peter on your question and thought I might be able to share you some of my 2 cents experience. First let's try to understand the problem so corrective action can be derived.

Why most people think that PC is so polluted?

1. Moving part especially from all sort of fans eg. CPU fan, PSU fan, GPU fan, case fans, HDD motors, optical drive motors, etc. Moving parts can generate a fair amount of EMI pollution in PC case. There are some folks in Overclock.net who experimented EMI effect on HDD latency. They measured HDD latency when it was installed inside and outside the case by routing SATA cable around the back of the mobo tray to shield it against EMI in the case. The result was interesting. Outside was 15.4 ms and inside was 22-28 ms. Higher latency = slower access time.

2. Switching power supply : it is a basic knowlegde to all audiophiles that standard switching power supply generates large amounts of switching frequency based pollution - RFI and EMI. They have been used in certain audio power amplifiers (namely pro audio and autos), but were not taken seriously for high quality home users. They were also more expensive than passive transformer based (linear power supply) products. However hi-end reputable name like Mark Levinson has launched digital power amp using switching power supply. Check this link http://www.marklevinson.com/ProductDetails.aspx?prdid=1   I doubt if interleaved switching power supply based amp can gain trust from fellow audiophiles.

Solution :

1. You may find thread discussions on XXHE about fanless PC to eliminate both noise (audible one) and EMI/RFI noise. I use water cooling - not easy to work with especially when you want to exchange and play around with CPU or GPU. You have to be careful with the water leakage and tubing maintenance. But the beauty is that it is completely quite and with less pollution. Mine is Zalman Reserator 1  with large cooling tower. Don't buy the one that has extenal fan attached to the cooling tank (Reserator XT : http://www.zalman.co.kr/eng/product/Product_Read.asp?idx=185) If you decide to go for water route, you have to be prepared to void your GPU warranty since you have to remove the stock heatsink and replace it with GPU block. But the effort is very rewarding.

2. Fanless can go further into PSU. Some folks in XXHE circle use fanless PSU. Some removes PSU from the case and place it outside. I know that Suteetat is hiring an audio geek to build a linear PSU for his music server- IMHO a project too ambitious to be true. Mine is a fan one -SeaSonic 850W- but will kick in only when the PC pulls more than 20% of the rated load. It uses Sanyo double ball bearing variable speed fan which is very quite too.

3. Mobo selection can be helpful. Make sure that your mobo has large heatsink on the northbridge and preferably southbridge as well since you may choose to power off all case fans. I don't think you can find aftermarket heatsink for northbridge. But you can get water block for this from Zalman. My G1 Sniper has a massive machine gun look heatsink.

4. Application of EMI/RFI shielding materials : you can build your own metal box to form a Faraday cage to your internal sound card (a means to block out external static electric fields which is in existance since 1836). I use Stillpoints ERS paper to shield my Lynx AES16 card (before I bought NOS1). Please see photo how I shield the Lynx card. ERS can be purchased online at  http://www.tweekgeek.com/_e/Stillpoints_ERS_More/product/ERS/Stillpoints_ERS_RFI_Killer.htm
If you open NOS1 case, you will find 3 compartments each separated by steel wall. These are Faraday cages. DAC compartment is in the middle of the H shape (under your initial !) and is the most important part to be shielded against noise pollution. Peter moves Juli@ card outside of the PC case just to feed it with linear power supply and to keep it away from noisy environment.
 

5. SSD to eliminate moving part. But we know that spinning disk will give a better SQ for XX. 

Is it a good idea to run PC and NOS1 in a separate circuit than your dedicated audio power supply circuit?

I don't know. I haven't test it with a critical listening materials. But I will and report back later. But theoretically speaking, you wouldn't want to run your PC and especially NOS1 in a typical home circuit which hooked up to refrigerators, washing machines or any home appliances with motors. The pollution can find their ways to "sneak into" your high-end dedicated audio circuit. And *that* will have a detrimental impact on SQ. The noise generated from a well configured music server PC is much lower than those from washing machines.

I am still running my NOS1 in a breaking in mode ie 24/7 basis. I am already half way through a month of burning in. Both of my PC and NOS1 are connected to true online UPS (placed outside my listening room) to protect against system failure and potential damage to Juli@ card inside NOS1. Please read this http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=1445.msg16633;topicseen#msg16633

Hope this will help.

BTW, what is your new desktop PC configuration?

cheers!
Praphan   

[Scroobius]

Hi Paraphan,

Many thanks for your response and very useful.  I had always assumed that most of the noise was derived just from the switch mode PS - but obviously there is more to be considered. Anyway much to work on when I get my PC the spec. of which is:

Intel Core i7 950 (4 x 3.06GHz) 8 MB,  Asus P6X58D-E/USB3 (Intel X58),  6GB (3x2GB) XMS3 DDR3 1333MHz,  W7 Pro 64 bit,  Cooler Master 600W Pro M Modular Silent Power Supply,  2Tb Seagate ST2000DL003 Barracuda LP, SATA 3Gbps, 64Mb Cache, 5900rpm, 8ms, Arctic Cooling Freezer 7 - Silent (I need to be convinced if this fan unit is really "Silent"), NVIDIA GeForce GT 210 - 512 MB - (Asus) (PCI-E) (fanless). I will be installing another separate 2T SATA for the music files.

So the PC is supposed to be "quiet" but I guess the starting point will be to see if the PC noise in normal operation is intrusive in the listening room. Then I will try the PC on the same dedicated HiFi mains circuit as NOS1 and then on the separate house ring. If it sounds better with PC on separate house ring then the fun will begin.

I will report back on my findings when the PC is delivered. GGRRRRggghhh how long can it take to deliver a PC? - I am still looking at NOS1 not able to listen to it.

All the best

PC

[PeterSt]

6GB (3x2GB)

Can't you make 3x 4GB of this ?
I am not sure, but I recall to have advised you to have 12GB in there for maximum (SFS Straight Contiguous) performance, knowing that 8GB is a little tight;
6GB is not a little more tight ... look at it to be 10x more tight (like 4GB hardly allows for any SFS SC at all).
If it's done it's done, but if you are waiting for ages for your PC anyway, maybe you can demand for changing a little ting like this ...

PS

[praphan]

Hi PC,

May I make some suggestions to your new music server :

1. Good choice for X58 chipset. I tested some Gigabyte P67 and H67 chipsets for second gen Intel 1155 socket. Some mobo has compatability issue with XXHE and NOS1. Please refer to this thread : http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=1636.msg16632#msg16632

2. Your mobo has 6 memory slots : three blues and three blacks. Your Corsair 3x 2 GB RAM must be triple channels. Then they have go into blue slots. 6 GB is not sufficient to run SC stably unless you dial in quite low SFS. I *HIGHLY* recommend you to get one more set of 3x 2 GB RAM. You must get exactly the same brand and best same sku no. You will end up with 12 GB by using all 6 slots. However, if it is not too late. I suggest that you ask your dealer to switch to 3x 4 GB tripple channel RAM, 1600 MHz. Run faster and allow you to upgrade to 24 GB in the future when XX is runnning at 64 bit.

3. CPU : Again if it is not too late, I would advise that you exchange to i7 970 hexa core. 0.9z-5 start supporting multicore - up to 24. Future version will see improved SQ using multicore processing. I think Peter gave you the same advise. It is a pitty to buy X58 chipset without going for hexa cores. Intel cut price of i7 970 down significantly. You can get it for about USD 600 from Newegg.

4. HDD : might be useful to get SATA III HDD if your mobo offers a real SATA III support. But I am not sure if Marvell 9128 on your mobo can actually deliver 6 Gb/s. You may like to leverage google.

5. OS : google Windows 7 SP1 and download the official SP1 version (not the RC one). You need SP1 for a better SQ. I think you know this already but ...... just a gentle reminder.

6. PCIe x1 : your mobo has one slot (navy blue) of this located nearest to the northbridge. You should slide the PCIe interface card into this slot for safety purpose. I am not saying that you cannot slide it in other PCIe x 8. But you may take a risk of frying your mobo like mine if you are not careful. I fried mine even with the PC shut down but the PSU on. The moment when I slided it into PCIex8, PC started automatically and my mobo was history. I might indent the interface card and get the gold contact short circuit or something. So remember, disconnect your PSU power cord before working your hardward in the PC. This is not manditory but for a safety reason.

7. Juli@ driver : if you cannot successfully install the driver after the first detection of the sound card, don't worry. Reboot and do it again. It will work. Juli@ card is among the 8 sound cards reviewed by Karl Schuster of the Absolute Sound (May/June 2011 issue). In Karl's opinion, Juli@ card merits his unqualified recommendation , in both relative value and absolute performance over other cards. Apparently, he is not the only one who appreciates the ESI Juli@'s virtues ; several high-end manufacturers are already using modified version of Juli@ inside their computer music products including NOS1. I have Lynx AES 16 too and will post my comparison soon.

Enjoy !!
Praphan

[Scroobius]

Hi Praphan & Peter

Well that was a close call but I just managed to change the order so now it will be i7 970 hexa core and 3x 4 GB triple channel RAM, 1600 MHz. Not sure how I managed to get the memory wrong but never mind OK now. I did choose the 950 to save some money. Anyway it probably would have been a false economy total increase in price was about £230 - I just had to raid my piggy bank 

The only downside is I have to wait another 5 days    but at least it will be better future proofed  .

Many many thanks to you both for keeping me on the "straight and narrow". I appreciate Praphan it takes much of your time to put together the above. I will let you know how I get on.

All the best

PC

[praphan]

Hi PC,

My pleasure to be of help. This is why we are here for - to help each other.
You can PM me anytime you like if I can be of any further help.

Regards,
Praphan

[PeterSt]

Right. It won't be long until eveybody has Hexa cores. Except for me.


Praphan, how long does it take you to load a FLAC album with 12 tracks or less for unattended ? I mean, until the XXHighEnd GUI has vanished ?