Gainclone heaven ?

[PeterSt]

But guys, what are you doing ?!?
This looks like the most ordinary twisted wire. That is, if Flecko is correct with his clamp solution.

Method 1

1. Find a grip somewhere;

2. Knot your end of the strands/wires to it (like Flecko's picture with the stand and horizontal bar);

3. Find a partner;

4. Find a battery driven screw machine (like a drill, but rev controlled). yes, batteries should be charged.

5. Mount the other end of the strands/wires in the head of it. Cause the lenghts to be the same of all wires.

6. Position your partner at "some" distance from you. Remember, you may be 10 meters from that grip the wires are connected to; the partner will be at 2 meters from you or so and guides the wires with arms wide (this suggests two wires, but more will work also (see method 2 below);

7. Start screwing. The partners holds the wires so the tension is and keeps (!) what you want. If the partner nevers moves, the tension gets higher. When the partner walks backwards, the tension can keep the same. This needs "one wire" practicing, and then you feel how it goes. It may need another wire to obtain the overal tension (or IOW density of the twists). Keep notice of the shrinking length during your practice (the gross 10 meters may end up easily as 6 meters net).

8. Do 20 meters in one go if you like. The total distance of the wire is not important; the distance to your partner is, and this never changes.

9. Keep in mind that at your end (the screwer) you may cut off half a meter of waste (there the density ain't right/even.

You will do 10 meters in 2 minutes easily !!
Come on, let's break records (good quality twists permitted only).

Notice that this is the only way to twist the wires evenly. I mean, that not one twists around the other, while the other keeps on being straight (which might be another application ...). When done manually, it will always end up like that (wrongly).

PS: Or am I missing something ?

PPS: We do it all the time here. Look under the hood of your NOS1 (the red/black and blue/black wires). Works with as many strands/wires as will fit in the screw machine's head.

PPPS: It looks too simple to be true eh ? still I wondered how to solve this while taking ages and ages at doing it manuallay ever back (for even one meter). Until I saw this light.

Method 2

Don't use the grip at the other end. Actually this is more more convenient, and you will be able to use up all the wire at that loose end (it won't curl up there). So, the partner is more involved at guiding the wires now; there's also somewhat more control about the tension of each of the wires. This is still about two wires basically, but more will still work.

Method 3

Do it completely on your own. Again use the grip at the other end, but now it is a balance between your other arm/hand doing the guidance, and doing nothing but pull back more and less. This changes per distance left and the length at first;
Once experienced this works as well, and in the end the best for more than 2 wires. This method will incur more for "after curling" than Method 1, because there's nothing there as a buffer at the not yet twisted end. You won't understand this now, but will notice this in practice later automatically.
What it comes down to is that at loosening the wires from grip and screw machine, the whole thing will behave as a curling snake. This is a matter or twisting back the whole lot until the snake is out. This looks more tough than it is, because you can also treat your snake like it's a whip. The curls go out automatically.
With Method 2 there are no curls at all, because the loose ends (behind the partner's hands) will "back twist" on their own automatically.

Have fun, which it really is ! If you see what HUGE amounts of time can be save, you will recognize that you made your own machinery with close to nothing. And the result ? perfect.

Peter

[Flecko]

Maybe I did not understand your method right. I tryed to twist the wires in a way you discribed but WITHOUT an automatic screwdriver. I used a doorknob to fasten the cable and twisted them around each other by hand. It was impossible for me to make an even twisted cable. I do not know how it would work, if you will use an automatic screwdriver. For sure it will work much better. But this "horizontal work" can be more difficult than one might expect 

The technique I suggested is limited by the height of your stands. Apart from that I had perfect results and it was unbeleaveable easy to do. Just spinning the clamp and watshing the cable twist (It can also be done with more than two wires). I wish I could show you a picture but the cables are hidden in my speakers now.

[GerardA]

OK, here is a detailed description I made for Gerard:

Hoi Gerard,

Het is heel simpel, een klosje lakdraad, voor trafo's en spoelen, van de gewenste diameter bijv. 0,35 mm voor hoog en 1 mm voor laag, kopen.
Een aantal keer de lengte die je nodig hebt eraf rollen en naast elkaar leggen, na ze in stukken geknipt te hebben. Dan neem je bijvoorbeeld 4 stukken en die ga je in elkaar twisten, gewoon draaien dus. Dan nog een keer 4 stukken hetzelfde. Dan heb je daarmee een plus en een min-ader. Van de ene geef je met gekleurd plakband aan de uiteinden aan of het de plus of min is. Dan twist je die twee weer in elkaar en heb je één luidsprekerkabel. Voor stereo nog een keer en voor biamping nog twee keer extra.
Nu komt het leuke karwei om de uiteinden schoon te maken.
Met een scherp mes kun je de lak op de laatste 2 cm er af krabben en daarna met een soldeerbout de uiteinden vertinnen waarbij de laatste lakresten verbranden.
Met een multimeter kun je dan kontroleren of alle kontakten echt goed zijn.
Dan alles weer netjes samendraaien en uitproberen.
Check nog wel even dat plus en min geen kortsluiting maken!

Groeten,

Gerard.

OK, OK, you need it in English?

You take a roll of enamelled wire like they use for trafo's and coils. Say .35 mm diameter for  mid/high and 1 mm for bass.
Take the length you need four times, cut them off and lay them together. Twist them together. Now you got one wire for plus or for negative.
Do the same again for negative or plus. These two wires you twist together again. This makes one wire for left or right high/mid or base.
So for stereo repeat this once. For biwiring two times more.
Now you have to clean the enamel from the wire at all ends of all strands for about 2 cm.
You can do this by scr*ping with a sharp knife and after that using a soldering iron to put some solder and this will burn off the last residue of the laquer. Then for convenience put a piece of coloured tape on one of the wires on both ends to identify plus/minus.
After this you check with a multimeter to see if all strands are conducting. Only after that you can solder the seperate strands together for plus/minus seperately. After that check with the multimeter to see there is no shortage between plus and minus.
After that your ready to listen!

I think I got the idea from an english forum in a topic about the anticable where the famous dutch hifi-journalist John van der Sluis gave the tip about enamelled wire. I tried the tips and found that only one pair of single strips sounded very good but also a bit coloured as if there was a specific resonance. Twisting more strands solved this, so I guess the important part of the twisting is the added rigidity that keeps the wire from moving/resonating. And of course the lack of plastic must work the same way as using very expensive capacitors, no pvc but paper in oil and the likes.
You could try oxygen free copper or something similar, but remember the coils in your speakers are made most of the time from the same simple enamelled wire.

So good luck!

[PeterSt]

But this "horizontal work" can be more difficult than one might expect

It is just very easy. The point is, if you rev up your screw machine to 2000 and walk the 100 meter in 8.9 seconds, you'd be doing 40 meters in 8.9/100*40 seconds, right ?
(and have 60 net meters of wire). Haha.


But all you need to do is concentrate on the tension (whatever that is you want) and walk forward. But really, we (one person) do 15 meters (this is our practice because of the room size) in something like 2 minutes.

Peter

[Gerard]

It is just very easy. The point is, if you rev up your screw machine to 2000 and walk the 100 meter in 8.9 seconds, you'd be doing 40 meters in 8.9/100*40 seconds, right ?
(and have 60 net meters of wire). Haha.

  

[PeterSt]

Take the length you need four times, cut them off and lay them together. Twist them together.

You will need much longer !

[Flecko]

It is just very easy. The point is, if you rev up your screw machine to 2000 and walk the 100 meter in 8.9 seconds, you'd be doing 40 meters in 8.9/100*40 seconds, right ?
(and have 60 net meters of wire). Haha.

Sounds like a "crazy" contest. Like one of the northern traditions like "wife long throw" .... Maybe we could establish a tournament.

[manisandher]

..."wife long throw" ....

Us British men have a lot to learn about romance...

I'm kind of confused. Looking at the datasheet for an LM3875, the slew rate is given as only 11V/μs. These gainclones should sound terrible. How come they [apparently] don't?

(Just for reference, my Sanders Magtech amp has a slew rate of 500V/μs.)

Mani.

[PeterSt]

Sounds like a "crazy" contest. Like one of the northern traditions like "wife long throw" .... Maybe we could establish a tournament.

Count Japanese in for such a contest !

[Scroobius]

Mani - Slew rate mmmm how fast does it need to be I have not a clue - what does NOS1 produce Peter? all I know is that I am sitting here with a huge great smile on my face. Certainly it sounds fast like it never has done before.

Well I wish I had asked about wire twisting before I started - could have saved much time. I used a manually turning handle with the wires clamped in (my wife did that bit - I have to buy here a meal by way of compensation). Why did I not think of an electric screw driver? - simple when you say it. Anyway all I would add is that when I twisted eight 0.5mm wires together I passed the wires through the teeth of a comb so that they were an equal distance from each other - so then moving along the wire as it was twisting and feeding the wires into the twist using the comb (if that makes sense). That gives a nice even twist.

Hell wish I had thought of the electric screw driver though.

Also where do I enter the "wife long throw" contest sounds fun.

Paul

[PeterSt]

NOS1-USB does 650 on the outputs (NOS1-original does a 100 less). But this is over 10 times what it atually needs.

I had another post here briefly, but deleted it again. Maybe it was not appropriate (to delete it, haha).

This summarized, nothing tells that "our" Gainclones overhere are build around the LM3875.
See Bert's earlier post in this topic ...

Peter

[Flecko]

Also where do I enter the "wife long throw" contest sounds fun.

To apply for the UGH-Lympics you have to download this:

http://www.abandonia.com/en/games/219/Caveman+Ugh-Lympics.html

And that:
http://www.dosbox.com/download.php?main=1

With dosbox you can install the game, start caveman and enter MateToss. I don't know exactly what to do. I click like wild on the arrow keys and on enter, then he throws his wife...those were the days...I have mixed up the idea of this old DOS game with the finnish "wife carying". LOL

[juanpmar]

Hi Peter,

I´d like to know if would be possible to put on the upgraded NOS1 four RCA/XLR outputs (total 8 outputs). I ask it because in case I take the route of the Gainclone I´d like to amplify the speakers with the Spectron monoblocks on the bass part and with a pair of Gainclone monoblocks on the mid/treble part of the speakers. That means four amps.

Thanks, Juan

[crisnee]

Now Peter, could you please provide us with the two minute gainclone? I'm sure you've been whipping them up while you're wife is resting from her part in the wire factory.

A fine and funny thread (page 7 anyway) and informative too.

-Chris

[PeterSt]

Hi Juan,

I am sorry not to have answered your earlier same question. I was more up and down between jobs of uninstalling W7 RC yesterday, and was having some fun in here. Ok, here goes :

I don't know !
The question has been brought up before in another context, and then my answer was that I can't be sure how different the reactance will be from the both amps (for one channel), and thus how the "feedback" of that may influence the outputs themselves. So, physically it can be done allright, but I wouldn't even be able to test (and for sure not measure !) it myself. It would be a trial ...

You and me also talked about similar (but in again another context), and then I adviced to use (home made) Y plugs on the outputs (well, something like that is what's in my mind). This would come down to the same. You could even try the Y connector at the othe end (near the amps). At least this way it's not a destructive thing. Also, you can try it right now (if you have those 4 amps - I'm not sure).

If you recognize (I mean, right now) that it works, I can make it a fixed thing which will be somewhat better (avoids a couple of connections). If it then bothers afterall, it would come down to just not using those connections, and if it psychologically bothers you, you can cut the wires close to where they output from the gain stage.
Think 160-180 euro for this (which is mostly about the soldering of the bunch of wires to the now actually small connector pins inside).

Lastly, we must be careful. Because now I think of it ... it formally will need twice the current output to drive the interlinks. I don't say it won't work, but theoretically it will work less (or the allowed interlink length will be less).

Maybe by now we must wonder how Paul did it, because he must have done something similar ...

Peter