Why Does Some High Rez Sound So Bad?

[boleary]

I purchased the 24/96 Dallas Wind Symphony: Crown Imperial from HD Traks and its among the best sounding recording i've ever heard. On the other hand I've also purchased from HD Traks Sam Cooke: Portrait of a Legend 24/96 and Oscar Petersons: Night Train 24/96 and they sound terrible. At this point I'm really hesitant to purchase more High Rez material. Just wondering if anyone can explain this?

[PeterSt]

I think I can ...

This one has already passed this forum somewhere ... (but I can't find it)

The Night Train is a hoax. Sorry ...
I'd even say we both dealt with this one per email ? If not, it was someone else.


Besides all, you may know my opinion on hi-res; far out the most sound worse than red book (ok, how I use it of course -> 24/384).

Peter

[boleary]

Pedal has recently written about how great the HD Traks 24/96 Getz/ Gilberto recording is and I don't doubt his impressions ( see:http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=1508.0). However, anyone have the redbook of this recording and done a comparison with the 24/96 version? Just wondering.

[PeterSt]

Uhm ... maybe you don't want to see it (or forgot if I had to say it), but with "hoax" I mean it is upsampled material.

[boleary]

Thanks Peter. I guess then that the Getz would be "hoax" material too? So, is it a fair assumption that unless a company specifically states that the high rez was digitally recorded as 24/96 or 192 from the master analogue tapes that its just an upsampled 16/44?

[PeterSt]

And then the other thing (a bit pretentious) :

Pedal has recently written about how great the HD Traks 24/96 Getz/ Gilberto recording is and I don't doubt his impressions

This may not be all that much related to anyone's imporessions, but merely the "inexperience". I mean, once at last have a DAC which doesn't touch the sound (or at least the least possible), it is logical to play all the hires you have or can get and next think it sounds good. And I don't say it doesn't, but I do say that chance is under 5% that it sounds better than the red book version of the same. Let's not forget that I'm "doing" this for two years now and with the over 300 hires albums I have here - can make some comparisons. And, of utmost importance (I'm sure you will believe that) is that the NOS1 allows to compare with all electrically 100% the same (no other DAC will do that). So, a 24/176.4 album will be electrically played 100% the same as the 16/44.1 version upsampled to 24/176.4. This incluses the driver setting and further buffers. Now, for some answer :

The difference is the way the 176.4 / 192 is realized. Most often it is low passed (hence again stupidly filtered) and it is there where it goes wrong as far as I can see (through). With 44.1 nothing is low passed, and as far as my theories go, the Arc Prediction Upsampling reconstructs better than the low pass filtering could do for so called "native" stuff. And not by a bit.

And for some kind of counterweight : take the RR Recordings. Now THOSE are good (you will know !). All of them.
All of them are 16/44.1 and they superceed whatever other hires so much that you just don't *want* to listen to hires anymore.
But use proper filtering (which in the end means ... well, you know that too - from theory).

Call me crazy for now, but Ill bet that it doesn't take long that the Pedals also will come to the same conclusion.
And none of these things let judge themselves in even a week. It's just the global merits - and in the end not according the recordings. Just watch it ...

Peter

[PeterSt]

Thanks Peter. I guess then that the Getz would be "hoax" material too? So, is it a fair assumption that unless a company specifically states that the high rez was digitally recorded as 24/96 or 192 from the master analogue tapes that its just an upsampled 16/44?

No, I won't say that because I don't know it and didn't examine it. Important is though, the (by now) knowledge that companies like HD Tracks buy the albums from other companies, and don't know what they are buying. Or, do VERY strange things which are unbelieveable to me in the first place. Linn is the example here. Here too, people received "hoaxes" and their answer was that they (indeed) bought from other companies, but did something wrong themselves (Linn) with the upload. Puh, what then ? no matter what, they sold "hoaxes", and so it just does happen.

For HD Tracks it's always the same. When you look after the suspicious album it has been withdrawn from sales. Happened to Night Train too (I'm still alomost sure we both dealt with that one some 3 months back).

[pedal]

Hi-rez is of course much better sounding than 16/44 Red Book, theoretically speaking. Both because of the higher resolution, and because you skip the downsampling from (usually) 96kHz mastetape to 44.1 CD sampling rate.

Unfortunately the music industry is quite sloopy. Their cost control exceeds their quality control. Which sometimes means that "somebody" at the recording company just ship the Red Book master to HD Tracks. Shame on HD Tracks for not controling EVERY title they get. The frequency spectrum and compression rate of the mastertape can easily be analyzed with software such as Audacity, which even is for free.

Example: Steely Dan Gaucho just released on HDTracks has severe cut-of at 21kHz. Don't buy it. (But the 5.1 version on DVD-A which I have, has plenty of high frequency content. I just made a downmix of it, from 5.1 to stereo, and the result is quite interesting. Although the downmix need some more tweaking, reducing the bass and increasing the vocal somewhat).

HDtracks is run by David Chesky, the owner of Chesky Records. He certainly knows the meaning of high SQ. He has got some angry e-mails lately from people like us, and I am quite sure he will improve the quality control inside HD Tracks for future releases.

From Verve, I was rather disapointed about the SQ of the Ella & Louis album on HDTracks. The Getz/Gilberto sounds very good in comparison. I didn't spectrum analyze any of them, though. Anyway there is a limit of what you can expect from those old primitive recordings. Also, I think that small jazz combo recordings from the 60s certainly benefit from vinyl playback.

Although there are exceptions: Miles Davis/Relaxin (2 track mono recording by Rudy Van Gelder from late 50s) sounds stunning in the 24/96 HD Track download. The same recording on a 180gram audiophile LP reissue sounded muted and dead on Leif's €50.000 vinyl rigg. Afterwards he pulled out an old original pressing of the same, which sounded more or less equal to the 24/96 (apart from severe surface noise and scratches).

So the rule is: THERE IS NO RULE. Too many exceptions. If you are hunting for the best version, you have to zig-zag between the formats and test each version individually.

[boleary]

We did talk about Night Train a while back but I didn't really get what the issues were then. Really appreciate both your and Pedal's replies. Anyone know where these recordings are honestly reviewed so that one can make an informed purchase? (Other than what is shared here  )

[AUDIODIDAKT]

I purchased the 24/96 Dallas Wind Symphony: Crown Imperial from HD Traks and its among the best sounding recording i've ever heard.

We tested this at Peters place, as i recall, this is a hoax too .....! (we couldnt stand it for more than 2 minutes)

Pedal, try the 16/44 vs 24/96 version of Joao Gilberto and Stan Getz, just curious about your findings

Roy

[AUDIODIDAKT]

Example: Steely Dan Gaucho just released on HDTracks has severe cut-of at 21kHz. Don't buy it. (But the 5.1 version on DVD-A which I have, has plenty of high frequency content. I just made a downmix of it, from 5.1 to stereo, and the result is quite interesting. Although the downmix need some more tweaking, reducing the bass and increasing the vocal somewhat).

5.1 CAN NOT be downmixed properly !!!!!!!! (its called lossy)

If there is a 2ch 24/96, use that, STAY AWAY FROM DOWNMIXING, no good, never will be good sounding, period.

 
Roy

[AUDIODIDAKT]

Just checked,

Steely Dan - Gaucho, has a 2ch/24/96 MLP on there.

WHY DOWNMIX 5.1 to 2.0 ??

[PeterSt]

I purchased the 24/96 Dallas Wind Symphony: Crown Imperial from HD Traks and its among the best sounding recording i've ever heard.

We tested this at Peters place, as i recall, this is a hoax too .....! (we couldnt stand it for more than 2 minutes)

Djeez, you're right. With this "Night Train" I was all the time thinking that this was related to a set of six or so, but now I know again, this was the Dallas Wind ...

Btw, a brief "investigation" learned that it was hard to believe this is a hires album, because the rest of the set just is not ...
A dangerous conclusion maybe ...

[PeterSt]

... additionally ... this is a RR, right ? (hence no hi-res <- careful, maybe now they have)

[pedal]

Call me crazy for now, but Ill bet that it doesn't take long that the Pedals also will come to the same conclusion.
And none of these things let judge themselves in even a week.

Of course my impressions of hi-rez is based 99% from listening on my previous DAC/interface. The NOS1 has just arrived and are still on break-in. Certainly it has transformed the SQ of 16/44 replay. But also, it should improve (relatively speaking) as much with hi-rez material.

I have about 100 hi-rez titles, and indeed there are some confusing stuff in between. Some nuggets and some stinkers. But when everything is done right, the hi-rez is clearly better.

-----------

Something else: The present "confusion" and "stinkers" are mainly related to old recordings. (including most of my favorite music, unfortunately...)
-Recordings which are managed by a music industry close to bankrupcy.
-Recordings with confusing owners rights, blocking remixing and WW distribution.
-Recordings done on corupted analoge tapes.
-Masterings ment for vinyl, not digital.
-Masterings ment for digital, but heavily compessed.
-Etc, etc.

On the other side we have "new" music, from companies like 2L:
-Smal scale companies run by enthusiasts and "perfection people".
-Modern license/ownership terms allowing digital distribution.
-Recordings done on SOTA hi-rez digital equipment.
-Quality mastering for digital.
-Etc, etc.

My point is that time is on our side. Hi-rez will come more and more. The industry will improve. So in the long run "we" will win!