Challenging hiend cd player/transport result

[manisandher]

Well, I can't argue with people's direct experiences.

Earlier I wrote:

If you can get a computer to record well, then there SHOULD be no reason why you can't get the same computer to play back well also.

Can anyone explain to me why a computer would be able to record well but not playback well? I mean, what is more difficult about sending music data from a computer to a DAC vs. receiving it from an ADC and storing it? Surely whatever mechanisms might be messing it up during playback would also be evident during recording. And yet, CDs which have been originally recorded on computer seem to sound great on $$$ CD transports.

Mani.

[Nick]

Suteetat hi,

A very interesting account of the comparison, now we have much better idea about the event that triggered this debate, thanks.

Do you remember what DAC, amp and speakers were being used ? The question is more just out of interest.

BTW for your INT202 car batteries tend not to be so good in most audio applications they are great at delivery of massive current but not so good at delivery of quiet, fast, regulated power into digital circuits that run at Mhz frequencies. If you want to do a little DIY and depending on the current requirements of you INT202 you might want to look at using something like this. http://www.audiocominternational.com/product_info.php?products_id=28&osCsid=p67t8t2j3p94d4rlkddbapmsg1

I have used them a number of times in DACs, CD Transports, on USB cards and in SPDIF interfaces and they have usually been highly effective, much better than battery power. (Having said that I have not tried the battery type that JKenney is using in his HiFace mods which people say are excellent, you may not get your required voltage easily from these though).

Nick.

[manisandher]

If you want to do a little DIY...

I'm upgrading the cheap SMPS in my Weiss AFI1 interface with a toroidal + Paul Hynes PS. All the parts are on order and I should have everything completed by the end of January. If all goes well and there is a definite improvement in SQ, you may want to do something similar with your INT202.

Mani.

[Nick]

Mani,

As a though experiment only (no real experience here on this topic) and ignoring factors like RF noise and interface protocols (USB / Firewire / I2S / SPDIF) which defiantly have an effect on playback.

To record, the analogue signal it will be fed into some type of interface (external or internal). The conversion quality should be a function of the interfaces ability to time the sampling and determine the amplitude of the samples. For ADC I assumed this would all be done at dedicated ADC chip level with a very good clock timing the process. If the recording interface uses a buffer to pass the data back to the computer, and the transfer is not handled by the ADC (eg a separate processor takes care of this) then passing the data back to the computer does not result in jitter and so has less (no ?) effect on the sound quality.

Going the other way round to play music you have all of the playback buffer and memory timing challenges that Peter works on. Ideally the computer should be able to move data around and to the DAC in a true real time stream at precisely data rate demanded by the music sample rate. But as Peter and Josef are finding there’s a lot influencing and impacting on this. The net result I guess is that the data arriving at the DAC is less accurately timed even if you can manage to achieve bit perfect delivery of the samples to the DAC.

Probably way off the mark here.....

Nick.

[Windows X]

Let me add that I used to have hope about computer music server could be as good as $10k CD transport. I've tried more than 5 of audio interface at highest possible classes from various brands besides Mykerinos. One day when you realize how better system really make the difference, you'll know that music server couldn't get there.

In my own system, I could my own music server is almost as close as Esoteric P-05 like 95% or so when listening like you use flac against wav/mp3 against flac/etc. But I do know its true potentials in larger system like $100-500k ones. I could say $100k system we auditioned few days ago sound 5-10 times better than average $30-50k system. It has a lot more than equipments in there to make sound real good like world's best quality of custom-made stands and power distributor and $6-7k DIY preamp that beats some $20-40k ones easily for quality.

It's not like I'm being single-minded for any subject. If it's something I'm not really into it and know almost full well in every aspect, I wouldn't dare passing judgement on anything like that. But with my knowledge and experiences that I believe it's quite generic to discuss with tons of people who owns $100-300k system at ease, it can't be wrong to be judged in wrong way. I'm talking about quality here not preferences in sound.

To Mr. Suteetat, it would be nice if we can meet up in each other's places and test our projects to discuss for further improvements some days before X'Mas .

[PeterSt]

But with my knowledge and experiences

Just for fun here ... wasn't your age 24 ?

If not, what is it ? (and better keep it honest)
To me this seems as important as your $$$. Both say not all, but say something.

?

[Windows X]

How can we understand such thing like harmonics, micro-details, transparency, transient of dynamics, impact, speed, in very subtle but highly critical in super hiend system with proper setup and controlled in the same way? Do you believe putting a coin on any equipment can make the sound difference?

Let's just say money and information skills play best here. Computer can get roughly at 1ms or 0.5 for hardware while CD transport like Emm labs and Esoteric have hundred times lower. What can you expect?

And since when having longer times mean having more knowledge and experiences? If XXHighEnd can out best my non-xxhighend system, I would seriously take your word in consideration. But that didn't happen.

[manisandher]

Probably way off the mark here.....

Hey Nick, you may actually be well on the mark. The only contention I have is that you associate buffer and memory timing challenges to playback only. I'm pretty certain they exist for recording also.

Also, most professional setups would have the computer slaved to the ADC/DAC clock, or to a dedicated external high-quality clock, for both recording and playback.

Actually, Suteetat & WindowsX, when you were using a computer/XX, were you slaving the computer interface to the DAC? I guess not with the INT202 (it doesn't have a w/c input) - how about the RME? In my experience, this is very important.

Mani.

[Windows X]

I did slaving clock from dac to my main transport. Another machine in test was made for compring Suteetat's approach to mine with same audio interface and so on. I have 0.02ppm clock feeding dac and transport in my home.

[manisandher]

OK, I understand you do things (i.e. clocking) well in your home system.

But at the local dealer's showroom, when you were making a comparison between computer/XX and CD transport... were you slaving the computer interface to the DAC? If not, then I have way less confidence in your listening observations. And this would also explain why there was such a variation when the INT202 power supply was changed.

FWIW, I cannot bear to listen to my system unless the computer interface is slaved to my DAC's clock.

Mani.

[Windows X]

My main system have it slaved from d-07 in comparison and got pwned once emm labs sacd se took my place for audition. Worst could expect from Eaoteric K-01. I couldn't imagine music server in any solution to sound as good as this (after weight balancing calibration when everyone leaves but me and dealer alone). And let's say p3d3g0rb combo sounds 50% better than k-01 as rubidium clock alone rougely improve K-01 significantly to 20%.

Without antelope clock, I wouldn't consider my music server sound bearable too as I'm enjoying 90% out of P-05 and 70% without it in my system.

[GerardA]

Windows X,
I'm sure if you pay Peter a million euro's he'll make a special version of his DAC for you that will sound the best in the world!

[Windows X]

Making hiend dac to kill top model of Emm Labs isn't that easy, you know?

And I prefer to pay 1m euro elsewhere though. Or you guys prefer to see only posts about "omfg! Xxhighend with xxx puts my $$$ cd transport to shame!"' huh?

[Chriss]

Windows X,
I like when people talk with some knowledge, skills and thoughts even if they are not so correct or complete. For a lot of thinks you are right but lets think together what is the most bigger benefit of the CD transport over PC?(I will be happy to writte them down)
-my guess is...the POWER SUPPLY ofc. If you open hiend CD and the hiend PC (is there hiend PC?) you will get my point. For hi-end PSU you need
Linear-tube,
Massive amorphouse transform,(Modular Power Supply / Signal Stage)
Kenotron Rectifier (Plasma Convertor)
Solid Core Silver Internal Wiring
Solid Core Silver Power Supply Cable ...and so on and so on
Most Pc's use chines 300000W ..nice, no! :D Yes we can continue with a lot of other stuff, someone like weight, plane down (rake), electricity!(proper power conditioner(most hi-end got one or even more) so you can see all the people in this forum found and search new and new thinks about PC music every day and yes there is still a lot of work but...don't give up the PC. It's a powerfull transport and storege!
Regards, and I(and the other I can say) respect your thoughts one or other way!
Criss.

[Suteetat]

The system we used in the test was Rockport Aquila, Karan mono, DIY preamplifier,
Esoteric D-07 DAC, for transport, it was EMM Lab, I can't remember which one but
not the XDS1 with Esoteric drive and not the older one with disastrous Philip drive.
I am not sure about wiring used. There were some monster cables and some Virtual Dynamic
cables from what I recalled. The system was incredibly dynamic, excellent soundstaging and depth.
Mid/high were a bit cool,a bit more on analytical side than I like. I left before I had to chance to hear
the system with their new Esoteric K-01 and dCS Puccini due to other commitment.
Cables used for my computer was Locus Design firewire to Weiss and Stealth Sextet from Weiss to DAC.

Thanks all for suggestion regarding power supply for Weiss. I don't have a clue about DIY but have many friends
who does. One suggestion that my audio friends who is also a car audio enthusiast suggested using capacitor banks
which helps battery to deliver much faster power than battery alone (I think!) at least that's what lots of people
use in their rather expensive car audio. I will also look into option of better linear power supply as well and will wait to see
how Mani's project turns out.

I picked Weiss INT202 over AFI1 mainly because my PD MPS5 does not offer clock input. It does have clock output  but not on BNC
but some proprietary connector for what purpose I have no idea but PD does not recommend using it as master clock to control other equipments
either.

Also PD is coming out with new USB module that will at least accept upto 24/384 sometimes next year. I will have to see how that go as well.

WindowX, definitely we can have another listening session soon but let me try a couple of things with battery first, it should not take too long krub.