JPlay Part Deux: A new controversy?...

[PeterSt]

Im onside with native boat. Arc prediction is good for not really highly resolving system. When use in high resolution system, I feel little annoyed with artifacts (not as much as amarra, though). Though peter said there won't have anything like that but I don't feel it's natural sound to my ears.

Hey,

Just for your information, and my aknowledgement you *should* be right ...

Arc Prediction was made for NOS/Filterless DACs, and for those only. Moreover, it was explicitly made for 24/384 NOS/Filterless (read : the Phasure NOS1). This doesn't say all (see below), but it *is* good to know it (plus that you won't own such a DAC).

Next is my own surprise that most people like Arc Prediction over native anyway. This is not because I told those people ... the contrary ... I told them not to use it because ... (see above). But it just happened.

Today I am as far as that it highly depends on the DAC and what it does internally with already "ready" low passed data (so to day). I mean, one DAC still oversamples as hell, and the other "sees" that it is not necessary anymore (this is partly implied by software logic).

All 'n all, everybody who says he likes Arc Prediction better at using a DAC which filters itself (again and theoretically for the worse), is to be investigated on "how come". This is not about people having strange (or low-res) systems (at all), them not being able to listen well (at all), but to what degree their DAC "listenes" to something which is already good;
On the other hand, everybody who says Arc Prediction is worse than native 44.1 is inherently right. As long as they don't use something like the Phasure NOS1.

And so you must be right.
Peter


PS: Please let's not continue this subject here, because I really think it is off topic in here. Not by means of your post, but merely because of my answer.

[Per]

Josef, I agree with you on the peace on earth / forum statement, Josef. Let us be slow to judge (each other) and fast to forgive   Peter has done a tremendous job with his new dac. I am sure it will take highend computer audio to new heigths. Lots of congratulations, Peter - when my hifi one day is up to snuff I would love to give it a listen. Marcin, in my book you are The master tweaker of Computer Audio - and like Peter probably focusing of pushing the envelope of computer audio 25 hours a day That leaves very little for sleep - and then one could easily be a little a tense, I suppose.

Well, back to the topic:

I too have downloaded jplay1 and jplay2 and would sure like to try them and give some feedback, but I cannot 'Lock pages in memory' as I run Vista Home Edition   In short: I do not have the secpol.msc or gpedit.msc utilities that Josef refers to. From googling I have learnt that all the parameters is in the Registry database of Windows, but how to change the needed settings manually I have not been able to find out. Praise to Josef for digging into the inners of OS and sharing it with us.

Best wishes and regards to all of you,

Per

[Josef]

I mean, one DAC still oversamples as hell, and the other "sees" that it is not necessary anymore

Excellent point Peter!

If DAC is oversampling, then JPlay's output (a 'pure' native 44.1kHz) will be utterly destroyed!
(for example, 44.1 might get converted to 96kHz in DAC which is a _very_ hard thing to do right and almost impossible to do both _right_ AND in _real time_!)

And if same track is played with XX using Arc Prediction then DAC might say, ah, a 96kHz stream here:Good, I don't have to oversample I'll just play it....

Which obviously means that comparison is not exactly OK but nevermind - As I said, keep the opinions coming: the only way to make reasonable conclusions is to have _more_ opinions!

(Or, turn off Arc Prediction in XX and try again  )


My DAC is only pure native 16/44.1 (Audio Note) so I can't test this but maybe somebody with 96kHz or 192kHz can try following:
set DAC to its maximum (e.g. 192kHz) and try JPlay: does it fail reporting format is not supported? Then look in Sound Panel and check which format is selected as default (is it 44.1 or 96kHz?) Try changing the format and then try again.
(also, check if your DAC maybe has a way to 'turn off' oversampling? )

[Josef]

Per,

I cannot 'Lock pages in memory' as I run Vista Home Edition

but how to change the needed settings manually I have not been able to find out

Huh -That just may not be possible

But try this:
http://www.novell.com/coolsolutions/tools/13970.html

And some small info on how to use it:
http://ben.versionzero.org/wiki/Cmd:ntrights

Note you not only need Administrator rights but you may need to turn-off UAC.

I have never tried this so no guarantees....

[manisandher]

I think there's an issue with nomenclature here. Although there are no precise definitions, mine are as follows:

Upsampling is done before the filter in the DAC

Oversampling is done during the filtering in the DAC

So Josef, when you say turn the oversampling off, most people would not be able to do this. 99.9% of DACs are delta-sigma, and therefore by definition need oversampling to work. Some DACs have the capability to upsample 2x or 4x. This is sometimes switchable on/off.

Arc Prediction is a means of upsampling in the software. If you have upsampling in your DAC, try to switch it off if you can. If you have a true multi-bit DAC, try to switch the oversampling filter off, or bypass it. If you have a delta-sigma DAC (highly likely), see if you like the sound of AP - you may, or you may not, depending on your DAC.

Mani.

[Josef]

Thanks for clarifications Mani!

BTW - Still unable to access command prompt from RAMDisk? Does jplay work if you simply double-click play.bat from Explorer?

[Flecko]

Where is the instruction to set up the memory lock thing?

[Marcin_gps]

Adrian, there you go:

Start Menu > Run > enter "mmc" > OK button
File > Add/Remove Snap-in > Add button
Select "Group Policy Object Editor" > Add button
Finish button
Close button
OK button
Local Computer Policy > Computer Configuration > Windows Settings > Security Settings > Local Policies > select "User Rights Assignment"
Double-click "Lock pages in memory"
Add User or Group button
Object Types... button
check Groups > uncheck Built-in security principals & Users > OK button
Enter "Administrators" under "Enter the object names to select" > OK button
Apply button > OK button
File > Save
File > Exit
Reboot

[PeterSt]

Josef,

I see you so persistent on the settings in the advanced tab of the audio device (like setting it to 44.1 etc.).

If you do everything right on your side, this doesn't make one bit of a difference.
But if you use Shared Mode, it does ...

[Flecko]

thx marcin!

I tested aples with aples first:

xx-engine3@44.1/16bit <-> jplay64
result: same sort of sound but jplay sounds cleaner

then aples with pears

xx-engine4,special@44.1/16bit <-> jplay64
result: nearly same level of detail, a little bit more focus on lower midrange and bass with xx, jplay sounds brighter

and then aples with oranges

xx-engine4,special@88.2/24bit <-> jplay64
result: much more musical with xx, more 3d, simply better

btw: just tested sfs.ini settigns again: would say 01 is closer to jplay than 21...I like 01 more

[Josef]

Josef,

I see you so persistent on the settings in the advanced tab of the audio device (like setting it to 44.1 etc.).

If you do everything right on your side, this doesn't make one bit of a difference.
But if you use Shared Mode, it does ...

I am persistent because I like to have things double & triple-checked before making conclusions - call me paranoid    
I'm well aware of unfortunate sh*t Windows is doing to samples in Shared mode - that one does not require multiple DACs to check 

[Josef]

Flecko: Thank you for your observations!

Was it done before you found jumpers to disable oversampling or after?
And could I bug you for 32 vs 64 bit test?

[manisandher]

... could I bug you for 32 vs 64 bit test?

I'll try this also at some point and let you know what I think.

Mani.

[Josef]

Josef: My system priority has programs selected, I see your pic has backround services selected. Which is preferable for jplay and/or xx?

Which one is 'better' I don't know: I think e.g. Marcin definitely prefers Programs (right?)

In principle, this shouldn't have an effect - However, it IS messing around with _very_ important parts in a running system as opposed to Background setting which leaves things more 'at ease' so to say

Personally, as I also write & test code for JPlay I absolutely need a system that is as 'predictable' as possible - hence my preference for Background.   

To answer what's best for XX I also don't know - maybe Peter will answer.

I can only say that, in principle, because of a different design approach and especially when certain settings are used XX will be definitely affected more than jplay - this however does not imply anything as, for example, certain XX settings intentionally make things even more non-'predictable' yet there are people who prefer SQ precisely with such settings!

Long story short: This depends on too many variables so it's best to try for yourself and make your own decision

[Marcin_gps]

Josef,

I prerefer neither of those :D

Marcin