Build a new computer for Z3/Vista 64 bit/RAMdisk

[PeterSt]

Here is my take of this all :

Cores

I think the multi core stuff will be more and more important in the future and you could say "the more the better". Keep in mind the native speed of a core though, and the faster it is, the better it will be.

FSB

The faster the Front Size Buss, the better it will be. Notice though this is old (Intel I think) technology, and the net result for speed is the factor of CPU cycles, what your memory can take and the FSB. The problem here is : when you want to optimize this you will run into the overclockers leage, and this is nothing for someone not used to it. In other words : when you don't get your system delivered optimized to this respect, well, it just won't.
IIRC modern AMD doesn't make use of this "combination" anymore, hence no dependencies exist.

Summarized and roughly said : an Intel based machine may have a high clock speed, but skips cycles because the memory can't cope.

2nd level Cache and shared cache

I'm not much up to date on this, but the difference exists and the "shared" type will be the modern one. I think this about avoiding the necessity to copy in the necessary bits of memory when it's a task its turn to be serviced, hence there's one (larger) pool of 2ndL cache that doesn't need to swap out/in at task switching.

Fanless ?

IMO the biggest mistake you can make is wanting a fanless setup;
It will give so many constraints that in fact there are "too many", and it may start with a larger cabinet than you want;
You will have less choices in everything, while carefully choosing silent parts will do just as well.
Also notice that there's no way we will be urging maximum power from anything, which includes CPU, disks, graphics, mobo and general cooling. IOW all fans can - and will run at their lowest speed.
But choose the largest fans you can find for every aspect (120mm).

PSU

For any crazy setup for audio, 450W is more than sufficient (including a modern graphics card not expecially used (!) for video).
Indeed the CoolerMaster is very silent, and moreover it contains nicely removeable internal powercords; more than you will ever need.

SATA

Carefully overthink how many disks you will have connected;
With the current 2TB disks you still may run into too few connections, although if you have sufficiently enough today, by the time you run out 4TB will be there.
Don't rely on just a number mentioned, because often a total number comprises of 2 eSata connections. The latter are useful by itself, but can't be used for internal connections.
Notice that as much as 10 internal connections exist, but those mobos are hard to find and it's a tough job to "select" them in the first place (have to go into all the details etc., and there are sooo many mobos).
Anyway, if the mobo also has a PATA (IDE) connection it will save you a SATA connection on the CDRom drive which is always needed, and really doesn't need SATA (but have an IDE drive of course).

Cabinet

Another mistake you can make is having a one meter heigh cabinet because it then supports 6 or so hard drives;
In my quest for this, the midi sized cabinets -officially supporting 3 hdds- really can contain 8hdds with some thinking *and* an SSD or two.
Also, the 2.5" hdds getting larger and larger, think about 6 (today's) of them occupying the space of 1 3.5" hdd (that's 6TB in the pace of one 3.5" hdd).

Memory

I would say 8GB is sufficient. Of course the larger (the RAMDisk) the more you can play from one playlist.
Also take into account that for a board with 4 memory slots, 2GB modules may be more easy to get than 4GB modules.
However, what I would do is give myself the opportunity to expand on it later. So, it would be good if the mobo can take 16GB or even more.

PCI etc. slots

Not so easy to determine, because you really have to be up to date in near-future technologies. But let's say that all modern mobos will think about your future, and that now counts : the more the better.
Do not forget that many graphics cards occupy two spaces for slots. So, they don't use two slots, but are wide enough to make one unuseable. *Now* take care that the one which is rendered useless isn't needed by you.
Preferrably the slot for the graphics card is on the far end, so you won't loose anything.

32/64bit OS

I think it is obvious that "today" we want a 64bit OS (in order to use more than 3GB of memory). Also, it seems that the driver problems for 64bits are merely behind us, so chances are fair you won't have problems there.

Keyboard/Mouse/Monitor connection

Just the notice that either can have a cable length of 10 meters (also VGA but use a better cable). So, generally it won't be a problem to have the PC near the stereo or in a (more silencing) cabinet somewhere, while you control all from this 10 meters distance.
Also notice that keyboard and mouse can have 15 meters easily (just use extension cables), while with VGA I don't know. But, for VGA extension solutions exist over CAT5 and in the end you'll always get were you want.

General features

Maybe not the most important today, but for the future you'll never know (and if you can't choose between boards anyway) :
Think about USB3, SATAIII, the number of eSata connections.
On-board Firewire generally s*cks for audio, and stuff like WiFi (and possibly also Bluetooth) isn't supposed to be "On" in your Audio PC anyway.

About the on-board graphics : If it's there throughout (hence useable, see earlier posts about this), why not. If only this is an Audio PC. It will save you a slot somewhere. But here too : don't make it a knock-out, because your further choices will degrade to near zero.

Other mistakes

When you order memory in a "general" fashion like "4GB" notice that you may end up with 2x2GB while you wanted 1x4GB.

Think rational, and don't let yourself get confused by not wanting a $50 cabinet which already contains a PSU so "you can't use it". Of course you can. Tear out the PSU and replace it with the one you want. Wasted money ? so what. Your choices are bigger now.

The CPU cooler coming with the CPU ? throw it out if you want silence. It may work quite allright today, but not next week (some dust is enough to degrade the efficiency of those things). Just get yourself a decent one.

Fans in the cabinet ? they are not needed. But (!!) let switch your disks off within a few minutes, and don't let sit the POST (BIOS) screen there for a longer time (or all will start steaming indeed because disks will keep on running).

Don't put disks upside down. They can be on the side allright, but not upside down.

Stay away from RAID solutions and NAS for that matter. It can only bring you problems at the moment you want to exchange things, and RAID isn't a backup means. Oh, it is for a disk dying, but it is not for mistakes you make yourself.
NAS is a pain to begin with, but *if* you necessarily want to think like that : get another PC and stuff that with (more) disks. It's really the same but without the NAS quirks.

Also don't tink USB is the way to go for storage; it will take you more than a day to copy a 2TB disk, and USB disks won't spin down (that I know of).

The above may be where the number of SATA connections become important. It's really the fastest means for disk I/O (also important for conveniency at playback) and notice that eSata is not as fast.

My system

Maybe not all that important, but this is what I have :

• Asus P7P55D-E Evo (socket 1156, P55 chipset), 7x SATAII, 2x SATAIII, 1x eSata, 2xUSB3 (http://www.asus.com/product.aspx?P_ID=6tYErg5Gvuxs4VGz&templete=2 see specifications tab));
• Intel i7-i870 (quad core plus Hyperthreading (2 threads per core) possible);
• Memory (8GB, 4 DIMMs) DDR3/1600MHz (2200Mhz possible with overclocking), dual channel (max is 16GB over 4 DIMMs);
• Zalman CNPS9900A cpu cooler (never running at more than 950 revs -> could be a tad more silent when using an open cabinet);
• CoolerMaster M520 PSU (just silent);
• Asus ENGT240 graphics card (with fan, but just silent).

Motherboard is always 32C, CPU always 28C (but may rise to 38 1 or 2 secs at trackoading without cooler fan spinning up).
With this 7 HDDs and 1SSD are mounted internally permanently, but usually another one is layed on top (backup etc.), and one is externally connected (eSata, other temporary stuff).
Cabinet is always open, and lays on its side (disks on their side too).

Peter

[Chriss]

Peter,
all my respect, but seriously are you DEАF? or are you really try to build HIGHEND player with Engine modes, SFS files, Buffers sizes, arc, invert and etc, etc and you really can't hear your power supplies fan? I don't know....maybe I need a doctor!!!  http://www.seasonicusa.com/X.htm Suteetat take a look...fantastic PSU and fanless. THE MOST important think for a music server build.....think wherever you want but who cares for 4 or 6 cores and 12 or 16gb ram IF you have noisy PC guys...WHO? Suteetat take even 2 cores but buy the best PSU you can find mate, my suggestion!

[Marcin_gps]

Hehe, I'm getting one X-400 Seasonic PSU in few days, Thermalright HR-02, OrigenAE S16T case.
I disagree with Peter on few points, because I have had different experiences. For me absolutely no fans inside PC and no PCI-e GPU is the only way. Fans are very silent, but 'noisy' to other components, if you know what I mean. The same with power consuming noise polluting graphic card. If you don't hear the negatives, go ahead and don't bother, I do, at least in my system Maybe PC interface for NOS1 isn't sensitive for that factors, but I doubt it - if it's powered from PCI/USB, then it matters.

[Chriss]

For me absolutely no fans inside PC and no PCI-e GPU is the only way. Fans are very silent, but 'noisy' to other components, if you know what I mean. The same with power consuming noise polluting graphic card.

Exactly Marcin! When I say noisy all I mean is that this noise is in all the way to the speakers! You can put the PC in other apartment if you want but that "noise" is moving through the chain! Even believe or not but fuses and electricity matters more than we think !http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xs1aUws0Lrs watch this video if you didn't and listen the funny greek about 50% electricity.
Regards, Chriss.

[PeterSt]

Oh ... *that* noise ! hahaha

No, I didn't think about that, but that will be because I can't have any of such noise (and don't have it indeed -> measurements).

Ok, don't ask me how much that can influence in any normal situation ... I just don't know. But don't make yourself crazy with just stories.

Peter

[praphan]

Hi Doc,

I am one of those fews who use water cooling on my CPU and GPU. I vote for non-moving part electronics. Moving part can generate "noise" (some sort of EMI I guess) which degrades SQ. If the price of SDD comes down to a certain point, I am positive that HDD will face extinction like CRT monitor/TV.

Downside of water cooling is its inflexibility. It is not that easy to switch the graphic card if you want to play around with it. Once you remove the fan which comes with the graphic card, you void the warranty. RMA is not possible. But if water cooling is your choice, then make sure that you run your system with the fans until it is stable before installing water cooling system. I use Zalman Reserator 1 V2 (not available in
thailand). One other warning, remember to switch on the pump before power up your PC.

Note that I need gaming grade GPU since my system is multimedia PC and not only for music. When home (once a year during school break), my son plays games on 92 inch 1080p projector with McIntosh tube amp. What a luxury !!!

In conclusion, I vote for "noise free" (from eliminating fans) in a trade of with "glitch free" (from faster processing speed, tripple channel configuration).

Just my two cents.

Cheers!
Praphan

[Suteetat]

I'm afraid you're wrong. The motherboard supports integrated graphics as long as it is integrated in CPU, but quadcore core-i5 doesn't offer one. (only dual cores i3 and i5 have intel hd graphics). http://www.intel.com/consumer/products/processors/corei5-specs.htm

i7 980x could be much better - 32nm, 12MB l3 cache, triple channel ddr (Phenom is 45nm, 6MB l3 cache, dual channel ddr), but the real question would it matter for SQ?

opps, thanks for the correction.
i7 980x could be interesting except that it costs as much as AMD CPU, MOB, RAM combined. Again, it would be 1366 socket with in integrated graphic and the needs for extra graphic card.
As far as CPU power, I am wondering. AMD 6 core is quite cheap but on core to core basis, Intel, even the i7 quad core performs much better at the same clock rate. For Phenom II xt 1095T to outperform Intel Quad core i7, it is needed to be overclocked to over 4Gz.
http://www.guru3d.com/article/phenom-ii-x6-1055t-1090t-review/10
I definitely don't plan to overclock my music server as I want to stick with fanless CPU heatsink.

So more core at lower performance vs less core but higher performance per core? Throw in DDR3 tripple channel but perhaps with additional (hopefully fanless)
graphic card, which way would you choose?

One case that I am very interested in is Thermaltake Level 10. The price is outrageous but I like the idea of lots of aluminium, almost 50 lbs and everything is
compartmentalized. Power supply is in separate enclosure from MOB. HD and CD-Rom are also in their own enclosure. The only downside is that it is rather big.
If I forego this case, there might be enough money to look at i7 980x but I am not really sure that i7 980X is neccessary.
Seasonic power supply looks interesting. However whatever PSU I use will most likely be temporary. I am still looking into possibly having a linear power supply built for the computer and it will sit in a separate enclosure for sure.
One solution for me to keep computer noise away from leaking into my system (I used to get a buzz once in awhile through my tweeter when computer is on) was to use
JPS Aluminata power cord on my computer. Don't ask me how it works but ever since I tried the cable, I never heard any buzzing noise through my speakers ever again. Unfortunately the power cord cost more than the computer itself but I also tried a few other cheaper power cord but none of them manage to get rid off the noise like JPS. Shunyata Hydra 8 conditioner stopped the buzz from getting into the stereo system but the buzzing noise occur at Shunyata chassis instead which was still annoying.

[Suteetat]

True and wrong Ramdisk can use memory above 4GB in 32bit OS, leaving all system memory for Windows.
So, assuming you have 8GB of RAM installed, your OS utilise 4GB and 4GB goes to ramdisk. I'll check this myself tomorrow and let you know how it works. I suspect it could be even in terms of SQ, because ramdisk won't interfere with system memory.

Please let me know if this is true. That would save a lot of hazzle for me. I assume that I don't need more than 3GB for RAM anyhow and I can have 8GB or 12GB of RAM with 5-9 GB for RAMdisk under Vista 32, that would be great as Vista 64 is rather hard to find over here unless I do the Win7 Pro and downgrade to vista 64.
Beside RAM size, is there anything else in Vista 64 that is beneficial for XXHighend?

[manisandher]

Fanless ?

IMO the biggest mistake you can make is wanting a fanless setup;
It will give so many constraints that in fact there are "too many", and it may start with a larger cabinet than you want;
You will have less choices in everything, while carefully choosing silent parts will do just as well.
Also notice that there's no way we will be urging maximum power from anything, which includes CPU, disks, graphics, mobo and general cooling. IOW all fans can - and will run at their lowest speed.
But choose the largest fans you can find for every aspect (120mm).

I use a totally fanless setup, more because it seemed like a good idea at the time than anything else. But I have to agree with Peter here - there are some massive constraints going this way. I am very limited with mobos/CPUs/GPUs - it was a nightmare getting an i7 to work in my case (Zalman TNN300). Although with this case, I actually can use everything at full power.

But the craziest thing with my setup is that my pro ADC/DAC has a (very silent) fan built in anyway!!!

Mani.

[Suteetat]

Hmmm, I made some calls today and looked like there are still some fanless graphic card out there
so Intel 1366 platform is certainly possible although looking at the price of i7 980 Extreme is rather scarry.
However, i7 950 is roughly the same price as AMD Phenom II 1090T but interestingly
DDR3 triple channel is not that much more expensive than DDR3 dual channel. DDR3 triple channel 12 G (4GB x3 1600, you need everything in
multiples of three) is about $70-80 more than 4GB x2, 1600 DDR3 dual channels. However, motherboard for AMD is about $100 less.
Throw in another $100 odd dollars for fanless graphic card,  the price difference between Intel with less cores but more powerful
on core to core basis with significantly faster (and actually more RAMs) might be worthwhile.

[Suteetat]

I use a totally fanless setup, more because it seemed like a good idea at the time than anything else. But I have to agree with Peter here - there are some massive constraints going this way. I am very limited with mobos/CPUs/GPUs - it was a nightmare getting an i7 to work in my case (Zalman TNN300). Although with this case, I actually can use everything at full power.

But the craziest thing with my setup is that my pro ADC/DAC has a (very silent) fan built in anyway!!!

Mani.

I agree that going completely fanless is going to be too limited.
However, I think that if we try to minimize number of fans and possibly avoid fan that has physical contact to MOB via CPU/graphic card, that may help.
Certainly fanless graphic card or something like Thermalright HR-02 fanless CPU cooler does not exactly impose too much limitation on the computer, as far as
XXHighend is concerned. Whatever I build certainly still needs case fan and until I can get power supply sorted out, I will most likely have a fan or two there as well but hopefully large low speed fan.

[Calibrator]

Throw in another $100 odd dollars for fanless graphic card.

ouch ... inflation must be rife where you live. All you NEED for a dedicated server ( which was your original design criteria ) is something like this ..

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814131371

If you're living outside of CONUS though, which is what Newegg restricts delivery to, and you can't find something like that, consider a browse through eBay for preloved cards if you're comfortable with that. Not everyone is though. The funds you save could be better put towards a faster CPU.

Happy hunting,

Russ

 

[Calibrator]

True and wrong Ramdisk can use memory above 4GB in 32bit OS, leaving all system memory for Windows.
So, assuming you have 8GB of RAM installed, your OS utilise 4GB and 4GB goes to ramdisk. I'll check this myself tomorrow and let you know how it works. I suspect it could be even in terms of SQ, because ramdisk won't interfere with system memory.

Been there ... done that ... didn't work !

http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=1403.msg13521#msg13521

I'd be interested to know if you had better success.

Russ

[Suteetat]

Throw in another $100 odd dollars for fanless graphic card.

ouch ... inflation must be rife where you live. All you NEED for a dedicated server ( which was your original design criteria ) is something like this ..

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814131371

If you're living outside of CONUS though, which is what Newegg restricts delivery to, and you can't find something like that, consider a browse through eBay for preloved cards if you're comfortable with that. Not everyone is though. The funds you save could be better put towards a faster CPU.

Happy hunting,

Russ

 

Thanks for the suggestion. I will look locally first to see what's available. Unfortunately the store here does not always list everything they have. The guy I talked to mentioned ASUS HD 5... something when I asked if he has any fanless video card in stock.

[PeterSt]

XXHighend is concerned. Whatever I build certainly still needs case fan and until I can get power supply sorted out, I will most likely have a fan or two there as well but hopefully large low speed fan.

You guys are funny.
I propose a case full with fans except the case fan(s), and *thus* all fans have to go out except the case fan ?

Ok ...
haha