We all fell in the W7 pitfall

[Nick]

4)   Mulimedia Class Scheduler
9)   Software Licenceing
11)   Windows Audio
12) Windows Audio Endpoint Builder
13) Windows Driver Foundation - User Mode Driver
14) Windows Management Instrumentation (needed for RAMDisk to work)

Marcin hi,

I think all of these services are needed. This is the minimum set to still have a working audio system. From memory I removed each individually to check and the system failed. I remember being disapointed at the time because XP would run on only 6 services ! Each removal was tested for sound quality as well (at least on my system).

Nick.

[Marcin_gps]

OK, so it depends on the system too. I have turned these off while XXHE was playing. I'll investigate that later, now I'm very happy with the sound and still have the usability of a normal PC.

[PeterSt]

It has been a long time since I tried myself, but notice there may be a difference between WASAPI (which is official audio for Vista/W7) and Kernel Streaming (which is not). For example, I can imagine that "Audio Endpoint Builder" is not necessary for KS at all, which it 100% sure is for WASAPI. This may (!) also imply that no audio devices should be enabled in the first place, so WASAPI doesn't even get the opportunity to start "building" those end points (which will be about the enumeration of audio devices as you see them in XXHighEnd, but also in more parts of the system (like the taskbar tray speaker)). Going this route, of course eliminates Engine#3 as an option to play with.

2c
Peter

[Nick]

Oh boy ... Ehm, for Nick, a small follow up on my previous post, after following the link from Roy to my own Dec. 2009 topic once again, this time actually reading what I wrore in there :

One of the major flaws I discovered (but it's a general thing I think) is that "media" (hence audio) doesn't perceive the highest priority anymore. Thus, when a piece of kernel code is supposed to fill a buffer while another piece of user code is doing something else, that user code now has preference. STUPID ! This is just where Vista was good at, and now it is destroyed. I don't say this can't be solved, but in the mean time it now *has* to be solved, where Vista was ok with it. So thank you very much.

You see ? I knew that too (by emperical finding).
But also : I forget things some times.

The heat of the battle ...

Peter,
I know you had spotted this issue with W7, I remember the post, you really made think hard at the time. This post, papers on W7 and Vista architecture and cool audio quality reception of W7 at Phasure and elsewhere made me adopt a “wait and see” approach till something definite happened.....then this thread started .

I can really identify with your “the heat of the battle” comment, I get that a lot in what I do as well. You had to work with W7 when it was released though, every MS dependant application owner has to. What impresses me is that in you pursuit of the best sound you have the guts to say the “king has no clothes”.... I mean “We all fell in the W7 pitfall” dosent pull any punches does it 

Best,
Nick

[Nick]

It has been a long time since I tried myself, but notice there may be a difference between WASAPI (which is official audio for Vista/W7) and Kernel Streaming (which is not). For example, I can imagine that "Audio Endpoint Builder" is not necessary for KS at all, which it 100% sure is for WASAPI. This may (!) also imply that no audio devices should be enabled in the first place, so WASAPI doesn't even get the opportunity to start "building" those end points (which will be about the enumeration of audio devices as you see them in XXHighEnd, but also in more parts of the system (like the taskbar tray speaker)). Going this route, of course eliminates Engine#3 as an option to play with.

2c
Peter

I hadn't though about that, I did the tests on pre kernel streaming HighEnd versions so it may be that some additional services could go. Will have a play.

[Nick]

Another reasonably effective OS system edit – Globally Turn off DEP.

Data Execution Protection is implemented partly BIOS / HW and in the OS by Windows. In the windows admin tools you cannot fully turn DEP it off. I guess that there is some busy bit of kernel code checking I/Os and DEP flags trapping any errors as programs run.

Turning DEP off could open systems up to memory overwrite attacks and might cause instability if you run badly implemented programs but since my build runs music software only and never goes near a network I am happy to turn it off.

The effect is quite marked when applied on top of the MMCS parameters regedit. More hash and grain removed from the sound with improved imaging depth and resolution but I am not sure if it takes away some of the musical engadement from the sound ???

From a command prompt with admin privileges;
To turn DEP off “bcdedit.exe /set nx {current} AlwaysOff” then reboot
To turn DEP on again “bcdedit.exe /set nx {current} AlwaysOn” then reboot (I had to guess the on command but it seems to work fine)
Nick.

[Marcin_gps]

Nick, you're awesome 

I'd also add cMP optimisations per cics' site - http://cicsmemoryplayer.com/ They're for XP, but most of them works the same in Vista/W7.

I also had an experience of better sound once I installed latest DirectX Redistributable (June 2010), but I'm not 100% sure.

[Telstar]

From a command prompt with admin privileges;
To turn DEP off “bcdedit.exe /set nx {current} AlwaysOff” then reboot

gotta try this right now

[Nick]

Telstar,

Let me know what you think to the Global DEP disable.

Have you tried the MMCS service prioritisation regedit ? It's in a longish post from me a few pages back in the thread. The effect fundermantal to relay , this is the one you REALLY want to apply for best music.

Nick.

[Telstar]

Telstar,

Let me know what you think to the Global DEP disable.

Have you tried the MMCS service prioritisation regedit ? It's in a longish post from me a few pages back in the thread. The effect fundermantal to relay , this is the one you REALLY want to apply for best music.

Nick.

Yes, i printed both things.

On W7 the DEP can be disabled without {current} in the command line, that is:
bcdedit.exe /set nx AlwaysOff

Also the clock key is missing in two of the 4 entries (i think audio and audio pro, but i should check again) - is that normal? I'm using W7 64.

[Nick]

Also the clock key is missing in two of the 4 entries (i think audio and audio pro, but i should check again) - is that normal? I'm using W7 64.

Telstar,

I had forgotten that you are running W7. W7 does not implement the clock keys there in Vista only. This reflects is one of the fundamental changes that took place for audio playback when MS launched W7. In Vista the key allows you to set the granularity of CPU time dedicated to multimedia processes. The clock key values suggested dedicate loads of CPU time to music  There were problems however for Microsoft with this CPU prioritisation as effectively other processes like network could be crippled when media was being used (not that we care  ). MS fix was to remove the CPU time Guarantee in W7. We may discover other reasons as well but I suspect this is at the root of the Vista / W7 performance difference. This is why I never moved to W7.

This makes me  when I think of all that CPU time going to audio http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8_0e0pDzAY

On Vista the reg edit takes music to another level, it would be very interesting to see what you think the remaining key edits does for W7. Hopefully there will still be some benefit.

Nick.

[Telstar]

I spent lots of time to the ramdisk to have it working (huge difference), at the same time of the registry and DPS fixes, and couldnt check without yet, so i'll do it later this afternoon.

The clocks are in SOME of those keys in W7 and i wonder if they can be ADDED to the missing ones

[Nick]

The clocks are in SOME of those keys in W7 and i wonder if they can be ADDED to the missing ones

Worth a try.

[Marcin_gps]

I've just received a message from Cantatis and they say that Overture can't and won't work with 176kHz sample rate in Vista, because it's impossible. I guess, I'm gonna have to stick with no upsampling for 44kHz stuff 

[Telstar]

I've just received a message from Cantatis and they say that Overture can't and won't work with 176kHz sample rate in Vista, because it's impossible. I guess, I'm gonna have to stick with no upsampling for 44kHz stuff 

It's impossible FOR THEM. But since it's possible with other soundcards with the same chipset, it means that they need better programmers

BTW, I did the test of 8x AP vs no AP and it's NOT a huge difference, the ramdisk is way more important.