We all fell in the W7 pitfall

[PeterSt]

Yes, I think we all wasted our time and money on an under performing OS.

Let's start with this small excerpt from my topic from December 29 2009 Windows7 ? hmm ... maybe not ! from the first post in there :

The sound ...
I don't know yet, but after two days of listening it seems that I hear what I see. At the rate I see "task switching" (take the orange bar as an example if you perceive that the same like I do) I hear a fake timbre in everything. More raw. This is a bit difficult because it could be real, but if that is real I don't like it much. Strangely enough this seems more apparent with WASAPI (Engine#3) than with Kernel Streaming. Or maybe it is logic ... (about task switching).

[...]

Allright, if it weren't for you out there just using W7 which *thus* has to be supported, I would go back to Vista !!
But, when I can't get the sound right, I will anyway. If I can't get those priorities right, we better all go back. Keep in mind : "you" now (mostly) solved this by "tweaks" meant for changing SQ. So, your bandwidth for that has been taken away. This is not the intention of it all ...

So, dear all, today we are working on the Split File size (SFS), and I think that to everyone who tries to vary the SFS there's a vast difference audible. Yeah, that's what you thought ...

But after listening a year or so to Windows 7, better try Vista again, and see how your system turns into the most delicate sounding system ever ...


As the result of a crash of my system (not bootable anymore), I had to fall back to an OS disk which (not coincidentally) was from December 29 last year, and it's a Vista (SSD) disk. With a new system bing build up at this moment, I thought to use that disk as a base again, because it will allow me not to reinstall all the development stuff. So, just like last December, I would clone that disk to a new one, and in there upgrade to W7.
Because the new system isn't ready yet, I thought to make it work (for playback) with the latest XX version. This was the case right before the evening's play time, and I played something which I played one time before only a longer time ago. So, this time I was not familiar with the contents;

In instantly could hear all the "beauties" of the sound I once had, but never could find back anymore. Those really really natural veils of drums, a totally analogue sounding trombone, the guitar like I ever heard it, but wouldn't come back anymore. New though, was a detail unheard, which I found later with more familiar material. Un-be-lie-vea-ble.

The most apparent thing jumping to you, is the total lack of aggressiveness. Compare that just as well with vinyl; with vinyl you can sense the enormous headroom available before things will start to sound wrong or harsh. You just can't get it wrong. This now, is the same, and therefore I referred to the SFS "tweaks" from today, because that will be totally irrelevant.


The major "mistake" I will have maken myself, is that at the time Kernel Streaming was completely new, *and* it evolved so quickly. So, because of that I could tweak my own listening pleasure into something acceptable again (see quote above) without actually realizing I was working on the solution to a wrong cause. Or let's say I could forget about it, because KS really improved SQ compared to Engine#3/WASAPI, and at the time KS was ready (April or so ?) I'm sure the net result was better than Vista/Engine#3 from earlier 2009. And most probably nothing changed to that as per today ...

But today we can use Engine#4/KS on to the Vista of before, and NOW you have to listen;
It is not only by far far far the best I ever heard (sense that headroom thing !) but it also brings back what I unconsiously missed : that refined sound. Delicateness, a string plucked on purpose, a voice brought with sensitiveness, not *that* much forward and more in balance. And that with all that cymbals and stuff floating through the air ...

This is about the Phasure NOS1 DAC too of course;
Since the gain stage is in there and the cymbals appeared, for me it has always been always tip-toeing between the cymbals being there in the first place, and the aggressiveness of it when not quite good. Say, like from a random earlier Deep Purple album ("Who do we thing we are" left alone, because that's an example of the better smashing around rock cymbals, like everything from the first 5 albums of Led Zeppelin is). So, with those earlier Deep Purple albums, I'm always squeezing my toes, and think that those bad sounding cymbals better stay away, next thinking "oh, but sure nobody will play this on this DAC". Yea, that's what I hope in such an occasion.

So, what's next ?
Let me first refer once more to my quote above;
Although many people had problems with getting Windows 7 to run without glitches etc. which were not there with Vista, "we" solved those things, but as my quote ends, with wrong appliances. We all used SQ "controls" to get our glitches under control, and lost those controls for SQ control. This is the first thing never to forget, and I have said it quite some times throughout time.
Next, I always try to imagine what "you" perceive from things, and for example, a more rough sound (which (now even the more) it clearly is from W7), will create more freshness. You may like that, because something is coming from your speakers which wasn't there before. You will hear details too, which weren't there before; this is all a matter of "roughening". Please believe me. How that really is though, can only be heard from, say, infinitely more resolving systems, and already my own system resolves infinitely more since the end of 2009. This is partly because of the KS (special Mode ahead), but merely because of the evolvement of the Phasure NOS1 since then;
If I would have heard the giant step backwards my system shows today, I would never have stayed at Windows 7. Of course, back then I noticed it, but as said, it could be tweaked by a coincidental new Sound Engine. But it sure doesn't mean it was right.

Up to yesterday I think I found exactly one response of someone who explicitly told W7 didn't sound right. Coincidentally -with this post already in mind- this morning I received an email from a second person. So, I guess only a few people are "able" to perceive what only a few do, but trust me, W7 is wrong. And not a bit.

I will use Vista from now on, although I'll have a second boot for W7. I advice all to do the same, and look for what you have missed. It's really crazy.

Peter

[Marcin_gps]

Peter, are you sure it's not placebo? Are you using the new PC now? Is the OS optimized? Could this be driver related? 32 or 64-bit Vista?

Cheers,
Marcin

PS
I'm trying Vista today 

[PeterSt]

I'm trying Vista today 

You will see. We'll bet some Zywiec on it.

I kept all the XX settings the same, and the PC is just the old one (which still runs, but is "dangerous" so to say). XX plays from the "damaged" SSD, and/but the only real difference is that the OS is now on the old OCZ SSD and/thus that now two SSDs are in the system.
The SSD with the Vista OS is the exact same as when I made my first report about this and just hopped from Vista to W7.
All 'n all the only thing which really has changed (apart from the OS) is the OS being on that other SSD.

So no, no placebo. This time I thought to withold you from the common "my wife" story, but which story actually was there;
After a first track had played, I asked her "don't you hear a difference ?". She said "no, but I don't know this music". Me : "But it's easily audible anyway, so what do you say" ? and without further hesitation the response was "no aggressiveness".

And this is the one and only description which really covers it all, although it will be sheerly impossible to understand what I (we) mean by that in my system, and which is related to all those cymbals smashing around, while (and I mean that) 2 years ago I had nothing of that (at all !). "Nothing" means no explicit cymbal audible, except for some faint shht.
Hit cymbals *are* aggressive, but are even more aggressive when they are not right. Again, that over-freshness which actually comes from distortion, that by itself being too square waves while they shouldn't be.
It goes as far as a familiar synthesizer album I played later in the evening, that now showing normal cymbals, while earlier it came to me as badly sampled stuff (it will still be sampled allright, but not badly at all); I always refer to Enigma, who always show that very gray "cymbal" sound, which is so overexpressed that it has become part of the sound, already because this is audible in any system. But that too are normal cymbals in the end; don't ask me what it takes to let them sound so gray (compared to, say, a jazz combo). Same sort of mystery as the Beatles discussed in the "DAC" thread, I guess.

Let me know what you perceive from it, and don't forget to set all your settings the same ! Never mind the SFS, haha.
Peter

[AUDIODIDAKT]

Thanks Peter,

Something good came from it anyway,

If people want to install Vista, consider vLite.
http://www.vlite.net/index.html

[Marcin_gps]

Again - 32 or 64bit Vista? I'm already excited

PS
I prefer Brok Export instead of Zywiec 

[PeterSt]

Haha.

Sorry Marcin, I forgot : 32bits here. Drivers are exactly the same; all is the same.
But let's keep in mind : the observation from now is nothing different from my observation Dec 29 2009; that just bleeded to dead.
Unjustified.

Peter

[PeterSt]

Roy - good idea. I knew it existed, but forgot about it.

For everyone : Since I will build up the new system anyway, I will try this too. And this one is even "free" (at least that's what I got from it).

Thanks,
Peter

[manisandher]

... the only real difference is that the OS is now on the old OCZ SSD and/thus that now two SSDs are in the system.

I've been using two SSDs for the last 6 months or so. Recently, I bought a couple of new 'faster' SSDs, with a view to using a single one in two different PCs. But you may recall that I had a problem with 'ticks'. It transpired that this actually had nothing to do with the new SSD, or indeed using a single instead of two SSDs in the PC - it was a bug in XX. But in trying to eliminate the ticks, I installed the second new SSD in my main PC also. So, one SSD for the OS and the other for XX, just like I had for the last 6 months, but with newer SSDs. AND...

Now this is probably a complete placebo on my part, but I could have sworn that the sound was smoother with two SSDs - less aggressive.

So Peter, is it Vista, or is it because you're using two SSDs???

Mani.

[AUDIODIDAKT]

Its about months and months looking for golden settings, which are not there.

I think Peter is right, guys

[AUDIODIDAKT]

Roy - good idea. I knew it existed, but forgot about it.

For everyone : Since I will build up the new system anyway, I will try this too. And this one is even "free" (at least that's what I got from it).

Thanks,
Peter

Its free and could be shared among members, because everybody needs their OWN key to install anyway.

[PeterSt]

Its about months and months looking for golden settings, which are not there.

If you don't mind, I emphasized that little phrase. So, Roy's remark looks like a "I want to say something too" remark, but I think Roy knows what he is doing, and it *IS* about the ever and ever search because things won't be right one way or the other. Think about my own remark about the headroom again. I feel (but didn't try a thing yet) that it will be impossible to molest the sound I have right now. It even feels like Engine#3 will "do" it again. The difference is just so huge ...

[Marcin_gps]

Peter, do you think that there could be difference between 32 and 64-bit OS? (in terms of SQ, of course)

[PeterSt]

So Peter, is it Vista, or is it because you're using two SSDs???

Or maybe both haha. Or the other type. Today or tomorrow I will have a third.
And indeed, you may recall that I have said a couple of times that just having an SSD in there seems to be sufficient to improve sound. So, two can improve more ? three ?

Of course I have thought about it, which is also the reason I mentioned it (that there are two in there now). But the point is : I recognize back the sound I ever had and never got back anymore. This is mainly about the veils from drums. They have a colour, a texture, and a, say, "impact" level. It is this latter which I ever had and one of the most beautiful things a song can contain, because it so much shows the "feeling" of a song, while the drummer is the conductor. So, he not only gives the measure, but also knows as the very first when to play loud, when more soft, when more sensitive. Now, if you first imgagine the colour of the various drums (toms) to be very well audible (and they are here -> one year ago not at all), then next you can imagine that the stiffness a stick hits the veil may become audible (which is a bit similar to the stiffness of the veil being audible or not). It is *this* what disappeared in my system, but I don't recall exactly when that was (at what occasion I started to miss it). Thinking about the time period it hasn't been there, it will fit the "over to W7" situation.

Maybe it is good to notice that this was the kind of single compromise I had in my system (which I reflect to the DAC of course), just because of having the reference, and it once worked. But compromises are not needed, if only first "things" are right. And therefore Roy's remark is of so much importance; if something doesn't allow things to get consistent, you can try and try and try, but always will have a compromise somewhere.

I now feel that a whole new months of work is ahead, in oder to find out whether maybe Special Mode with ultra low latency also works for stuff other than electronic music (that too is the nail on the head from Roy). So, super detail comes from it, but with Ray Brown it won't work ? come on.
No, the longer this all takes, the more measures come available which at least tell that something is wrong.

Brrr, I wish you could all listen to what I listen to.

[PeterSt]

Peter, do you think that there could be difference between 32 and 64-bit OS? (in terms of SQ, of course)

If course I can say "yes" because everything matters (or at least seems to), but in the end I don't know. But I will install a 64 bit version of I-don't-know-yet as well.


Man, you have no idea nor clue how important it is to have a GOOD reference again. Sorry for my nagging, but this really is the most crucial.
So, I'm just imagining rebooting the PC for that 64 bit version and have a listen; if in one system not all (*ALL* !) is right, and in the other also not all is right, the decision on what is the best becomes arbitrairy (and personal, subjective). But if one is good (nothing lacks to your ears), it is so very easy to reject the other.

[AUDIODIDAKT]

We have to straighten this out, this of atmost importance.

Maybe spend some time on it, next week, when at your place, Peter !

Can you prepare some OS setups ?

PS: For me its come to the point of loosing interest in music completly. (yes, really)
      And its not me struggling alone, I see Mani, Boleary, Marcin etc ect
      Something is way off