The best amp and speaker setup for digital playback

[Calibrator]

I could write a bit about 'listening' to equipment and I will probably do a much longer post on it one day.  Suffice to say I am not that big a fan of it despite the fact everyone says its what you should do.  One reason is you can be easily fooled - and I have been.  I tend to trust guys who listen to a lot more stuff than I do and who technical skill is beyond reproach. 

G'day Bill,

that's an interesting approach to choosing equipment, however, it's not one I adhere to.

I would rather suffer the consequences ( if they occur ) of making a fool out of myself, than have someone else make a fool of me. If I am going to buy a wheelbarrow, I like to push it first !

Music enjoyment is a very subjective and emotional game, and while there may be others that share ( to a degree ) your philosophy on sound reproduction and techniques, and can offer some insight as to how certain combinations work together, I think it is limiting to one's enjoyment if you rely exclusively on others to make the choice for you.

It takes a little effort to train yourself to recognise specific aspects of sound reproduction, but it's not beyond the capability of the average audiophile given a little guidance.

Just my 2 cents worth for the moment,

Cheers,

Russ

BTW ... a friend recently suggested "Rapigel" as being very helpful in reducing the effects of arthritis and muscle pain. Widely used in the sporting world apparently. Do some googling about it.

http://www.horsesrus.com.au/products/rapigel.html

 

[PeterSt]

Another 2c attempt from my side ...

My woofers as well as the sub woofers are ported. The ports are there by design obviously, but like Bill said, I think it is fake (low frequencies). I am not sure whether this is in the "there's no free lunch" department, but at a certain stage I closed all the ports, and now my bas is ... more warm.

I won't repeat my ever lasting story about standing waves and more I seem to be the only one keen on (how to avoid them), but if you think carefully about this, it is again the same principle (the 1:1 really is everywhere). So, my subs, officially rated at 12Hz won't go that low anymore. Fine. My woofer, rated at 27Hz won't reach that anymore (I didn't even care to measure it after closing that port), but the bass response gets more outlined from it, and the interaction of the PROPER waves (frequencies) let excel the harmonics - otherwise vanished in the wobbling so called deep bass.

This too is an experience one can have a reference on. Or at least everybody should have heard the difference in order to recognize its importance;
Bass can be low but without a real frequency or "pattern" (harmonics !). Lay your hand on the (sub) woofer's diaphragm and feel a wobbling cone, or feel the repeated pattern of the instrument, including the wood it is built around;
Because not all music and instruments allow the judging of this by hearing, you can always feel it (the relative difference between good and bad).

No, I don't see how a ported speaker design can workout for the better.
All of you who have ports in there, for fun close them for a week or so. IMO (and as far as my knowledge goes on this) this doesn't work destructive for the sound. The port is just there to output longer waves, which hopefully are a kind of in phase with the normal driver output.
If you have a port only (and no normal driver output), leave it open ! hahaha.
But I'm serious. Try it, and next focus on low frequency sounds that maybe have become strings, or a clear synth, or even a tuba.

Peter

[manisandher]

All of you who have ports in there, for fun close them for a week or so.

I tried this with my Wilson Benesch Chimeras for a few months, and indeed, much preferred them with their ports closed.

HOWEVER...

I was using them with active x-overs (internal passive x-overs removed) and could adjust a whole host of parameters (output, freq., order, Q, etc). If you close a port, you really need to be able to readjust a bunch of stuff. Worth trying anyway though.

I've never really understood ported designs - the ones I've heard and owned have generally sounded terrible. I guess it comes down to the manufacturers being able to quote low frequencies in the specs... This is such a shame.

Mani.

[Telstar]

The Timepiece Mini ... 87 db ... the Maya is 150w

87dB speakers in a room of about 90 cubic meters requires 75W for 110dB peaks (peaks are 20-30db above the average).
I think that you have a good headroom with your 150W.

I could write a bit about 'listening' to equipment and I will probably do a much longer post on it one day.  Suffice to say I am not that big a fan of it despite the fact everyone says its what you should do.  One reason is you can be easily fooled - and I have been.  I tend to trust guys who listen to a lot more stuff than I do and who technical skill is beyond reproach.  These are guys like Hugh Dean at Aspen and Bob Smith at Aether Audio.

For me the other way is true.
Got burned once. Got luckier with several peoples opinion rather than a single reviewer. But I'm 100% satisfied only with my ears.

[Telstar]

Because not all music and instruments allow the judging of this by hearing, you can always feel it (the relative difference between good and bad).

No, I don't see how a ported speaker design can workout for the better.

It can be done. it's called overdamping. Very few BR speakers do that (Avalon, Tidal among the ones that sound good) because people likes boombastic bass and also because there is a natural dampening in American houses wall construction (thanks to a friend i finally understood this mystery just a month ago).

Rather than going to closed box (penumatic suspension), a BR can be designed not to boom. I have read some paper recently very enlightening, but i cant find it right now. I'll try to if you mail me for a reminder, Peter.

I prefer even more damped loading systems than the closed box such as infinite baffle (if i had a free room behind my listening room, thats THE way to go) and open baffle (which requires LOTS of space IN room).

Edit: Oh, i remembered one thing about that paper, and it is that low frequency reach is much more important than the SPL in low-frequencies. A very low Q design just sound more natural to the hear even if it is -10dB at 20hz rather than -3, while the first is at -15db at 10hz and the second at -30

[bhobba]

87dB speakers in a room of about 90 cubic meters requires 75W for 110dB peaks (peaks are 20-30db above the average).
I think that you have a good headroom with your 150W.

Exactly - thats what my math tells me as well.  Indeed there is really no need to go above 90db as well since it is generally recognized listening to even that level for extended periods will damage your ears - let alone about the neighborers, quite rightly IMHO, complaining.  I know I got hoping mad when the guy next door at 2.00 in the morning new years day decided to blast his boom box (I won't call it a stereo) full blast.  I couldn't even shout over it to tell him to turn it down to a sane level.  One person eventually heard me and turned it down but they didn't care and turned it up again.  I rang the police who put a stop to it quick smart.

I generally listen at about 80db if that.  This has another advantage as well.  It is generally recognized it is cheaper to get a good low powered amplifier than a high powered one.  Don't listen over 85 db and a 40 or 50w amp will suffice saving you real money to spend elsewhere. 

For me the other way is true.
Got burned once. Got luckier with several peoples opinion rather than a single reviewer. But I'm 100% satisfied only with my ears.

Yes - no one agrees with me on that.  But it has served me well for quite a while now.  Although I have had a few nibbles from guys burned with the conventional approach asking exactly how to go about it.  The main thing is to form a direct relationship with the designer, follow exactly what they are doing, and see what others say about it.  I judge it not just on subjective opinions but on technical details as well.

Thanks
Bill

[bhobba]

Needless to say I am a big fan of powerful amps rather than the other way around. I believe in amplifier headroom. I have seen too many speaker drivers destroyed with underpowered amps, and many owners suddenly relax with the new "natural unstressed reproduction" on dynamic musical passages when a powerful amp was inserted into their system. Most didn't know they had an underpowered amplifier problem until the stress and distortion problems were taken away.

Thats the view of the guys that like those 400W Cherries:
http://www.digitalamp.com/cherry.htm

But even those guys have tired the minis with the amp I am interested in and its just fine - even at the levels they like to listen at.

Thanks
Bill

[bhobba]

Rather than going to closed box (penumatic suspension), a BR can be designed not to boom. I have read some paper recently very enlightening, but i cant find it right now. I'll try to if you mail me for a reminder, Peter.

Although I much prefer a closed box to a ported design even better is transmission line bass of which I have only ever heard a few.  However the guy I plan to get my speakers from is a master at them.  His designs are always hybrid ported/transmission line (that evidentially gets rid of most of the problems with ported designs - I will soon finedout if thats true - but from what other guys tell me it is to a large extent true) or straight TL.  However his TL speakers are supposed to something extra special in the bass department - one guy reports they literally make people swoon when they hear it:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=54021.0

If you are keen Bob can do you a sub-woofer:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=38864.0

Personally though I am not going to bother - at least initially anyway.  I had an Evocatour sub-woofer for many years and ended up leaving it at a friends place when I moved.  He was staying with me at the time and we used to call it our dunny speaker.  When you engaged it you actually didn't hear too much extra stuff but you sure felt it when you went to the dunny.  I may be cajoled though once I get my system fully set up and looking for a little tweak to add that something extra.  But for now I am not too worried about extra low bass.

Thanks
Bill

[PeterSt]

But for now I am not too worried about extra low bass

I estimate that this is in 30%-50% of random albums (I mean, in at least one track of them).
Wouldn't want to live without it.

Here too, this is about "control". Good sub low is never just "low deep sound". It's individual vibrations (say, under 40Hz) up to "shaking" (under 22 or so Hz) because you can't hear it anymore. If you don't hear vibrations from a sub, it is no(t) good. And certainly here, feel the diaphragm. If you don't feel what you'd perceive from the instrument (or sound) involved, it's wrong (for music anyway).

Don't use a sub higher than the normal woofer, and try to cross it as usual (which may mean adjustmend to the woofer's filter as well). Without this, forget it, because you will be destroying your woofer('s sound).

Don't connect the sub in a 2.1 etc. configuration, but just satellite it (from the interlinks when active or from the LS cables when passive) (which goes along with my above crossing etc.).

Never listen to those who tell you that subs can't work for music. But it may be a tough job to get something which is good. Next, it still is difficult, because you'll need to calibrate the sub with the woofer/normal speaker. This depends on the distance from the normal speaker and the listening position, and is about the phase which has to be aligned.
If you think you'd better have two subs for stereo (which is certainly what I would do and have), find yourself calibrating the whole lot for ages. This is very difficult (both will cancel out eachother, depending on where you measure) and you really have to know what you're doing and why.

Never think low frequencies are not directional. They are, when they are "good".

Peter

[bgjohan]

Peter

When you suggested covering the port in a vented speaker, do you mean completly sealing (as with a piece of solid wood) or only partially sealing (as stuffing the port with some foam, as I have seen suggested on a a speaker construction site).

Bjorn

[Telstar]

But it has served me well for quite a while now. 

Whatever works for you.

[PeterSt]

Hi Bjorn,

Foam is what I mean. Old socks usually do. But is must really fit tight, or otherwise is't blown out again (the forces are rather high).

Peter

[stoneman]

I'm currently driving a pair of Quad 2805s (planars) with a Pass Labs Aleph 4 (single-ended, pure class A, 100wpc... and lots of heat!) and getting a really nice sound. In fact, the most 'coherent' sound I've ever achieved from speakers.

I think this is one (perhaps of many) recipes that actually works... thought not if you're into raves.

If only the Quads were more efficient, I'd be driving them with my Berning Siegfried.

Mani.

Hi manisandher

I use a pair of Quad 2905s and I supplement the bass with some (very old) Celestion 6000 subs.  Since the workload of the low frequencies is managed by the subs, the system can go pretty loud; despite the Quads being relatively inefficient.  It also means it's quite difficult to short the panels out.

regards
Andy

[manisandher]

Ooh, I'd love a pair of Celestion 6000 subs.

But not for my 2805s - I'm quite happy with the balance I'm getting, and also just love the speed of the bass and the general coherence of the sound... although I must admit it'd be nice to have a little more punch low down.

No, I'd love to mate the 6000s with the SL600s in my office

But you've got me thinking - high pass the 2805s around 100-150Hz, use a pair of 15inch drivers in sealed boxes down to ~50Hz and a pair of subs <50Hz. The only thing I'd be worried about would be speed. Surely no conventional driver could keep up with a 2805/2905s. What's been your experience with the 6000s?

Mani.

[PietPara]

Hi,
if we speak of reproducing pure 1:1 sound, does anyone here know anything more about Bybee Technologies and their Quantum Purification technology used to purify the sound traveling through cables?

See here: www.bybeetech.com

Sound interesting to me, but somehow it also smells like someone selling a Heisenberg compensator.

Maybe some of you have heard about it and know the truth.

cheers
PietPara