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ivo
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« on: February 23, 2010, 05:46:02 pm » |
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Started this topic as I would like to pick opinions regarding how much really improves the SQ if all devices participating in music reproduction are connected via some sort of power cleaner or power conditioner or similar? I do not have experience into this, so please share yours...
Can someone confirm that moving from direct wall power to the filtered one brings all the stuff to another level?
Ivo
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Music on internal HDD in FLAC-->LatestXX in QAP + PeakExt Mode[KS,Adaptive,2048,Q1=14,xQ1=1,Sch3,Low,Realtime,15 ms, SFS 2-400, Straight, stop all, MinOS]-->Windows 7 Pro SP1 x64bit-->Intel i5 based laptop [8 GB RAM]-->JKDAC32(HiFace based USB-I2S-DAC)-->Denon PMA-1500AE-->JBL E90 3-way speakers
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PeterSt
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« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2010, 05:57:54 pm » |
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I think I can : usually you'll loose dynamics, but it depends on the device in question. Today I am quite convinced it isn't about these things, but about clean power to the DAC only, and this plays a role, well, just inside the DAC. At least that is what I managed/created. I can show you noise from the mains at -100dB with nasty things at -55dB (which latter are special to my house only), but I can also show you unmeasurable noise. Same mains, same house, same wall outlets ... different DAC. The pictures (of measurement) are all in this forum somewhere. (so, this is not about measuring a DAC, but just what comes from the loudspeakers as the total result of (added) noise in your system)  Btw, this is one of the reasons the NOS1 takes so long; Just day before yesterday I found the way to isolate it from the PC without highering jitter. And I started thinking about this last November ... (ok, I'm sloooooow).  Peter |
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For the Stealth III LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - July 17, 2021 (2.11)
XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 14/28 cores in BIOS and set to 10/20 cores via Boot Menu) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/0/0/*1*/ Q1Factor = *4* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *10ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *10.13* (max 10.13) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *62* / Nervous Rate = *1* / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filtering *Low* (16x) / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^3
A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).
For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10 (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.
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Telstar
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« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2010, 06:26:19 pm » |
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(ok, I'm sloooooow).
I'm patient  |
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(2nd Apr 2018)
Software:
W10 14393 Pro x64 | XXHE 2.10 | MinOS | Q=14x1/0/0/0/0 | SFS 5,19 mixed contiguous | Nervous rate 1 | 4096k buffer |
Hardware:
OrigenAE H5 case | E5300 fanless | 8GB RAM | Winmate DC-DC fanless PSU | OS on SSD | Renesas USB3 pcie card | Belden highspeed usb cable | Audio-gd dac19 NOS with sigxer F1 | My_ref_FE mono amps | Albedo Apex speakers
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earflappin
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« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2010, 01:45:00 am » |
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Ivo, great question, and unfortunately one that I don't think can be answered with a simple definitive answer....like many things in high end audio.
Perhaps Peter is right and power quality only really matters in the DAC. My overall experience, after years of experimentation, is that many (not all) audio components do benefit from better incoming power quality IF your room/system is sufficiently resolving. Ultimately one can only be sure through experimentation.
As Peter noted, trouble is that most power conditioners reduce noise AND suppress dynamics. So with many of these devices you will at first notice less noise (good), but then quickly you will release your dynamics have been filtered (not good). This is what I found with just about every unit I tried.
Then a long time very cynical audiophile friend suggested a try a PurePower 2000. Reluctantly I agreed and after having it in my system I would not take it out. The PurePower 2000 is actually a power regenerator with a battery buffer it you will. Basically it continously charges a battery and then regenerates the power sine wave from the battery - this decouples the outgoing power from the unit from the power mains feeding your house. Some might say this approach will constrict power. Not in my system and I have a pair of very high current Class A OTL Tube amplifiers.
There is no question that feeding my DAC from this unit improves sound quality. But I also prefer my amplifiers fed from the PP2000 as well. This results in more detail and a more fluid, analog sound.
Again, your results will vary based on many factors including the power quality in your home, the design of your audio components, etc. Remember that proper grounding is also important. I would encourage you to experiment if you can, but not to blindly put a power conditioning unit without being able to try one with a right of return.
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Mac Mini / Pure Music > Firewire > Metric Halo LIO-8 > Atma-Sphere M60 Mk3.1's > Geddes Abbey Speakers > Rythmik Servo Subs // ASI Liveline Cables, HRS MXR Isolation Rack, PurePower 2000, Elgar 6006B
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ivo
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« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2010, 10:55:57 am » |
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Understood.
So, how about using regular UPS?
I checked that my DAC takes just 5 W worth of power. I can connect my DAC to UPS and while listening to music, disconnect UPS from wall. In this way I would have clean power from UPS without any peaks form the wall. I think UPS capable of 240W can handle my 5W device for at least one full album?
Ivo
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Music on internal HDD in FLAC-->LatestXX in QAP + PeakExt Mode[KS,Adaptive,2048,Q1=14,xQ1=1,Sch3,Low,Realtime,15 ms, SFS 2-400, Straight, stop all, MinOS]-->Windows 7 Pro SP1 x64bit-->Intel i5 based laptop [8 GB RAM]-->JKDAC32(HiFace based USB-I2S-DAC)-->Denon PMA-1500AE-->JBL E90 3-way speakers
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pedal
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XXHighEnd is THE best buy in Hi-Fi. Thank U Peter!
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« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2010, 01:13:48 pm » |
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So, how about using regular UPS? Most UPS units made for PC market use switching technology which itself infects HF noise into the powerline (and all connected equipment, consequently). Eventually it will work better if you pull out the wallplug every time you listen. Then you will (probably) get true battery voltage. BTW: I had a true battery supply for my previous DAC, some years ago, and it DID improve the sound quality. It was a DIY construction. Battery cells wore out after a couple of years, though. |
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Hardware: Stealth Mach III > Lush^2 > 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 > active preamp > 3-way active XO > amps > ribbon/dynamic true line source speakers.
Settings all settings as recommended by Peter by October 2019.
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ivo
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« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2010, 01:42:37 pm » |
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OK, sounds good.
I think then if I feed only my DAC with true battery voltage then I can go with some special battery supply rather than bigger UPS device. Have not looked for such devices, can you advise some ready made battery supply unit which can be charged and then used for DAC?
Thanks,
Ivo
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Music on internal HDD in FLAC-->LatestXX in QAP + PeakExt Mode[KS,Adaptive,2048,Q1=14,xQ1=1,Sch3,Low,Realtime,15 ms, SFS 2-400, Straight, stop all, MinOS]-->Windows 7 Pro SP1 x64bit-->Intel i5 based laptop [8 GB RAM]-->JKDAC32(HiFace based USB-I2S-DAC)-->Denon PMA-1500AE-->JBL E90 3-way speakers
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PeterSt
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« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2010, 02:26:49 pm » |
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This is not so easy, and generally it must work the other way around : have a battery, and design the DAC around it. Why ? because of different voltages needed, actually different PSUs are needed (which output the desired voltages for the various parts) and they take AC for input and not DC (like from you battery).
I don't think it is an option to go that way afterwards, unless you have a 220V (or 110V) battery that generates AC again ...
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For the Stealth III LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - July 17, 2021 (2.11)
XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 14/28 cores in BIOS and set to 10/20 cores via Boot Menu) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/0/0/*1*/ Q1Factor = *4* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *10ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *10.13* (max 10.13) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *62* / Nervous Rate = *1* / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filtering *Low* (16x) / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^3
A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).
For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10 (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.
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earflappin
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« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2010, 02:35:30 pm » |
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Peter is right. Certain DAC's are designed with low voltage power inputs - the Metric Halo ULN-8 and the soon to be released Antelope Zodiac Gold are just a few examples. These supplies provide their units with wallwarts to provide this 12-20V DC and offer high quality linear power supplies. One can also buy linear power supplies from companies such as Red Wine Audio.
I chose the PurePower APS because it is suited to those units that don't take low voltage DC inputs. The PurePower as I said regenerates a clean, unrestricted power sine wave without artifacts from the mains grid from a battery.
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Mac Mini / Pure Music > Firewire > Metric Halo LIO-8 > Atma-Sphere M60 Mk3.1's > Geddes Abbey Speakers > Rythmik Servo Subs // ASI Liveline Cables, HRS MXR Isolation Rack, PurePower 2000, Elgar 6006B
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pedal
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XXHighEnd is THE best buy in Hi-Fi. Thank U Peter!
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« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2010, 02:51:32 pm » |
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OK, sounds good.
I think then if I feed only my DAC with true battery voltage then I can go with some special battery supply rather than bigger UPS device. Have not looked for such devices, can you advise some ready made battery supply unit which can be charged and then used for DAC?
Thanks,
Ivo Like Peter and earflappin is pointing out: You have to respect the voltage, of course, and differ between AC and DC ;-). A product like the PurePower2000 can be used with all kinds of equipment, sharing the same AC voltage (220-240V in Europe). It replaces "the wall" AC outlet. The same goes for typical UPS units ment for computer envirements. (Like I said earlier, computer UPS's are cheaper than PurePower/PPP, but I am not shure if they really provide more pure AC out). If you wanna build your own battery supply (feeding DC to a DAC, for instance) of course you must know what you are doing in terms of regulations and internal voltages, normally between DC 12-20V. |
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Hardware: Stealth Mach III > Lush^2 > 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 > active preamp > 3-way active XO > amps > ribbon/dynamic true line source speakers.
Settings all settings as recommended by Peter by October 2019.
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listening
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« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2010, 08:12:37 pm » |
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Hi Ivo,
I'm using filtered battery power with all electronic components (Except the pc -- at the moment ) and all I can say: There is a big difference between this system and conventional power supplies, it's worth the effort to optimize.
Georg
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XXHE 2.10 - PC ASUS Sabertooth X99, passive Cooling / Seasonic P-400FL Platin / Core I7 6800K 6/12 cores scalable @1.2GHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 30/-/1/1/1/ Q1Factor = 10 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 15ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.69 (max 0.69) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ 2GB RAMDisk (IMDisk) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Stop Desktop, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = 35 / Nervous Rate = 10 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / *Arc Prediction Filtering (16x)* / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On
(Settings currently not stable)
USB3 from MoBo -> 2m Belkin -> Intona (Standard) with external power supply -> Clairixia cable
USB3 from MoBo -> 0,5m Belkin USB3 -> ALLDAQ ADQ-USB 3.0-ISO-PS with external power supply -> 2m Belkin USB2 cable
-> WaveIO to dddac1794 or to Soekris DAM1021
-> SMSL SU-8 ES9038
-> 2x Gainclone -> TQWT 9710M/01 + BMS 4524 Horn
-> 2x Quad 405 rebuild as mono amps with Dada Electronics boards -> Quad ESL63 Pro
-> 2x Anaview ALC0300-1300 -> Original Celestion SL6 in concrete housing
-> 2x Neumann KH-120
-> Funk MTX Monitor -> AKG K701
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Doman
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« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2010, 08:05:46 pm » |
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I use a Lindy 6-way Mains conditioner and I thought it sounded good. Although I would have to try it without to see if I gain dynamics ?
Edit: It got 5 stars in What Hifi so I assume the dynamics are still present ?
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Lindy6-WayMainsConditioner; Windows 7; XXHighEnd Q12345=0 VIA SPDIF Engine3 BufferSize32 Unattended ThreadPrio=Real-time DAC 24Bit 96KHz Quality Double Arc Prediction; VIA SPDIF; RMEDIGI96/8PAD Coax In SlaveClock AnalogueOut; RoksanK2; Mezzo6
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ed linssen
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« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2010, 10:35:28 pm » |
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Hi Ivo,
I'm using filtered battery power with all electronic components (Except the pc -- at the moment ) and all I can say: There is a big difference between this system and conventional power supplies, it's worth the effort to optimize.
Georg
Hi George, Can you tell/show us how you did the battery-filtering? Thanks, Ed linssen |
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Dedicated music-PC: Asus P8Z77-M, Intel i7-3770K- W7 SP1-64bits and XXHighEnd 0.9-Z8-2 both on WD caviar black spinning disk(sata), music on WD caviar-black(sata),WaveIO Usb/I2S-- DDD1794 N O S DAC, 2 decks.192/24(Diy). IanCanada's FiFo in front of the Dac. (Buff3 dac,) Stereo. Amp: DIY-transistor fully class A, about 20watts/channel. Speakers: rebuilt ESL Quad 63. 12345: 70000, Q1, Engine4,playerprio:LOW,threadprio:real time.Scheme3, Dac=24/192, at 16bits=24bits, pe,ss,st.serv,st.Eng.4,tt,arc pred 2x(4x). Adaptive Mode/straight cont. Buff 4096, Phase -, Clock 15ms, Balanced 43, Nerv. rate 100, Cool 1, Stable 0, Core 1, Optimal, SFS 1-160, Incl. garbage coll.,Start Playback during conversion, Stop all services.Minimised O.S.
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Telstar
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« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2010, 01:50:59 pm » |
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The answer to the original question, is a clear YES.
Even with a mid-fi source, a more stable PSU do brings an improvement to the sound, albeit not huge.
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(2nd Apr 2018)
Software:
W10 14393 Pro x64 | XXHE 2.10 | MinOS | Q=14x1/0/0/0/0 | SFS 5,19 mixed contiguous | Nervous rate 1 | 4096k buffer |
Hardware:
OrigenAE H5 case | E5300 fanless | 8GB RAM | Winmate DC-DC fanless PSU | OS on SSD | Renesas USB3 pcie card | Belden highspeed usb cable | Audio-gd dac19 NOS with sigxer F1 | My_ref_FE mono amps | Albedo Apex speakers
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fzman
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« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2010, 04:00:51 pm » |
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I am using a Shunyata V-ray for my source components, including the computer, lieanr psu for the sound card, and the dac. My amps run from a Shunyata Hydra 8, and I am using their power cords on everything.
The Shunyata stuff works so well because it takes power distribution seriously, uses filters which do not harm the sound, and also prevents your components from polluting the ac for your system.
This is with 120v 60 Hz USA power, but I would assume that 220v and 50Hz would work the same. Clean power is extremely important for good sound. Once converted to analog, the signal simply modulates the Ac from the wall to drive your speakers -- the AC is in the signal path as far as I am concerned.
Best regards,
Mark
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xp sp-2, on gigabyte g31 mobo, 1 gig kingston ram, e7200 cpu, with bios settings per cics. asus essence stx soundcard, powered by my 12v/5v linear power supply (recipe from John Swenson's fit-pc psu design on audio asylum), feeding aq digital cable to cary xciter dac. 0.9y-7 current settings: ks-adaptive, unattended, q1=4, Q2-5 all 0. player priority nothing, thread priority realtime, services suspended, have not tried any upsampling, or any other modes.
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