Windows7 ? hmm ... maybe not !

[PeterSt]

To start with Leon's post : well, what I am trying now is making Kernel Streaming a standard. I love (mind that word and feelings behind it) the sound of it, and on W7 nothing bothers me about that. But beware, this is me and it could be personal.
If I had to describe the difference with WASAPI, I would say you would not "love" WASAPI. It is interesting, it may look as the best, but somehow it is technical. The KS as I have it is is just music.
Anyway, if this works out for all of us (I'm working on the last issues ... but they are tough) it could be W7 for all of us, and those with XP could use it just the same. Vista ? should also work (as I don't recall KS sounded different or better on Vista -> I don't know how it sounds on XP yet).

On to the useage of W7 vs Vista ... Some strange things seem to be going on;
First off, I may have been one of the few who (very explicitly) judged Vista as *faster* than XP. But to keep in mind : I only use(d) it for the audio development and playback of it. Of course there were all the IOs (for which I created that "Tweaked to death" topic), but further ? no problems, no bugs, no strangenesses and unexpected things. For W7 this is completely different, and I dare to say one thing :

W7 was not made for being downwards compatible with Vista.

This can be seen by changed functionalities like the taskbar shortcuts (compatible would have been : leave them where they were and allow them to be dragged away) and further intuitive things. I mean, who in the world (after so many years of windows) is going to expect that a rightclick on a button allows for the program behind it to be started. This never worked like that, won't work like that in 99% of cases (for normal buttons) and thus nobody is going to guess it works like that. It is stupid.

The maximizing window ... some nerd thought this would be a nice feature. Well, look at it. Drag the window to the top and it's maximized. Drag it down and it's back to normal. Drag it to the left and it's docked there ... drag it to the right and ... nothing happens (but it moves). Now drag it down again, and it's back to normal. The docking is no docking in this case, and the only thing which happens is that it maximizes vertically. What the heck to do with this ?

Go programming. Dive into an editor, and press (e.g.) DownArrow to scroll down. StutterStutterStutterStutter. It all behaves the same. Taskswitching anomalies. It's everywhere, up to deep down inside. It s*cks.

Read this if you have some time : http://www.ocztechnologyforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=63895 (notice that GC = Garbage Collection and FW = Firmware);
Here the nerd invented TRIM but did not provide a solution for a disk coming from another PC or "situation". This means it is totally unuseable and even works counterproductive. You know I immediately said that things feld like a wrong SSD. Well it is true, and it is unsolveable (a fresh install is the only guaranteed solution as it seems). So you see, YMMV and if you don't have an SSD you won't have these problems in the first place. Anyway, I had my SSD perfectly working under Vista, and the same SSD now is a kind of destroyed. It is quite unworkable at times, and the system may stall for 30 seconds each minute (during working in the program).

This morning I woke up the screen (only disks and screen set to go sleeping) but my keyboard didn't work anymore.

If I now bring up XX to find a next album (while playing goes on unattendedly) it is totally unresponsive. Of course, this is because all what happens in the playback program, but hey, nothing of this unresponsiveness was going on with Vista. So this is the technical downwards compatibility;
Do you know how much time it took to get everything going - which is all about matching priorities and affinities ? it is totally destroyed now. And worse : I don't see the logic in how to fix it. IT IS BROKEN.

Under Vista -if I started two threads (processes) for conversion- it nicely used 100% CPU for two cores (not in 0.9y-4 because of a bug on my side); W7 ? it won't work. Only one core seems to be used, or both halfly. I don't know. The log files always showed which core was used, which btw is redundantly determined or IOW a deriveal of things. But it showed reality. W7 ? the log files now show that two threads run on the same core because processes are performed in a wrong sequence. It won't be reality, but because stuff like log files are not reliable, it is now out of control.
And, because I think I know a bit what happens and what I'm doing ... the same can be seen from the OS itself all over. Taskswitching is BROKEN.

Under Vista I had Kernel Streaming running which in my case is rather tweaky. Read : it can't make use of the more normal facilities for it, so I have to do things which depend on the internal clock (how much time has passed ? so do this and that). W7 ? somehow (I can't determine where it happens) I loose 4 seconds. As if the clock stops running. Take this as loading a track 4 seconds earlier compared to Vista or otherwise you are out of sound. 4 seconds !!


Ok, what I like to know : Do you also see Taskmanager stalling when a new track (part) is loaded ? (I use Threadprio RealTime and PlayerPrio BelowNormal (or idle) and Appointment Scheme 3). If you see that too, so be it. But if not I have hope it is something overhere and it can be solved.
Btw, I upgraded from Vista, and it has not been a fresh install. But I doubt this will make a difference.

Thanks,
Peter


PS: I may sound angry ... because I actually am.

[Eric]

Hi Peter,
yes I see the taskmanager stalling for a few moments - followed by a 100% Processor Usage spike. Also look at the Latency Checker - same spike behaviour when a new track is being loaded. However, the music keeps playing without any interrupt!
I understand why you are angry (maybe a little frustrated too?). This is usually not the best state to be in when you have to take decisions. Tonight is a perfect moment to take a brake and handle the new challenges in 2010, like you did before.
Thanks for all you have done for us "in the field" and Happy New Year!

Cheers, Eric.

[Per]

...Thanks for all you have done for us "in the field" and Happy New Year!

Cheers, Eric.

Ditto.

Wishing the best for you, Peter
- and for all of you nice folks in here

Per

[Moritz]

For those with doubts : look at Taskmanager and the Performance tab. Isn't it so that it completely stalls when a track is loaded ? why ? there is no reason to. Not according the priorities, and not according the affinities (which processor core is allowed to do what).

taskmgr.exe on Win7 drops to priority "below normal" as soon as I click "Play" in XXH 0.9y-4. So it's actually going out of its way to make your life better :-)
I would suggest that you should use Process Monitor (procmon.exe) @ www.sysinternals.com to trace process interactions (there's a lot more documentation on kernel internals to be found on the sysinternals site). There's also a user forum on the same site if you wanted to reach out to the community for a broader discussion of your observations (e.g. somebody already asking why audiodg runs at normal priority http://forum.sysinternals.com/forum_topics.asp?FID=9 ).

Hope this helps,
Moritz

[PeterSt]

I also see that this user didn't get many answers. Haha.
But then it always (Vista) ran at normal priority and btw it doesn't say much about internal thread priorities.

taskmgr.exe on Win7 drops to priority "below normal" as soon as I click "Play" in XXH 0.9y-4. So it's actually going out of its way to make your life better :-)

True. But is/was the same with Vista, and there it doesn't stall. So, if TaskManager is representative for all the behavior, here you see how that is changed. And it is completely crucial !!

But thank you very much Moritz. I'll dive a bit into that forum (didn't know it) and I may post something in there.
Peter

[christoffe]

The reason for the installation of XXH was to listen to our music with the best SQ available.

WE know that XXH was optimized for VISTA in the end, and an upgrade to a new OS will cause a negative (we should know the quality of the MS OS since years) effect to the SQ normally.

WE are the users to blame for, because everybody was eager to install W7 without any precautions (installation of XXH on a separate music system only).

As I wrote before, the first installation of XXH was under W7, and then I changed to VISTA by the end of Dec. 09.
The music under W7 was without air around the instruments, less depth and width in the soundstage in comparisions to my CD player. The sound was "compressed" and had a lack of timbre at the guitars and horns.         

The SQ under VISTA is superior and I will not change the present system until I get a signal/update from Peter if possible.
The present SQ is really amazing, and the CD player (Reimyo CDP 777) is ready for the shelf.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Windows VISTA SP2> XXHE 09-y4 / Q1/2/3/4/5 = 4/0/0/0/0 / No Invert / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = RealTime / Scheme = 3 @ UnAttended / *Quad Arc Prediction Upsampling* > Sony Vaio VGN-AW4 Series>|- Weiss Minerva -|- Dartzeel NHB-108B > speakers: Anat Referenz II Studio>

[Robin Hood]

Actually the work Peter is doing with XP sounds much more promising.  Many audiophiles have found XP to provide better SQ than either Vista or Win7.  It's just that to date XXHighEnd has been optimized for Vista but hopefully soon Peter will work in his magic for XXHighEnd and XP.

As for Win7 it may be too early to expect miracles.  Many of us expect changes from Microsoft and won't consider Win7 until R1.  I also expect driver support to lag, not that the hardware is not supported but that there is probably only a single choice for each hardware.  In contrast my Lynx AES16 card has several different drivers from which to choose for XP and btw, the latest does not provide the best SQ.

[earflappin]

Robin Hood, have you actually tried the latest release of XXHE and the latest AES16 driver on Win7 to compare the sound quality?  If so, how do they compare?  I certainly hope Peter can realize the same or better SQ on Win7 ASAP as from a user interface standpoint it is superior to XP and Vista IMHO.

[Robin Hood]

No, I haven't pulled the trigger on Win7 yet.  I was planning to upgrade one of my dedicated XP music servers running cMP/cPlay to Win7 so I could also install XXHighEnd and compare on identical hardware and OS.  But when I saw Peter's posts regarding his current efforts and impressions on the next release of XXHighEnd and XP versus the current version and Win7 I figured it best to wait for more definitive results.

I am currently running XXHighEnd 09-y4 under Vista 64 Home Premium and it sounds very musical.  Unfortunately my Vista computer is not a dedicated music server and is just an inexpensive Dell computer preloaded with Vista that serves many other functions.  I would probably agree with you that the user interface of Win7 is superior to either XP or Vista but I believe that should only matter if you have a non-dedicated music computer.  My experience with cMP/cPlay leads me to want to shutdown and streamline the Windows bloat and unnecessary services that affect or may affect the SQ.

Perhaps you and I may be disappointed six months from now if the latest versions of XXHE still sound superior under Vista.  I'm not looking forward to buying a standalone copy of Vista to install on a dedicated music server but I will if the consensus still indicates a Vista preference.  I realize that Peter and all of us are somewhat pawns to the whatever Microsoft provides .

[PeterSt]

WE know that XXH was optimized for VISTA in the end, and an upgrade to a new OS will cause a negative (we should know the quality of the MS OS since years) effect to the SQ normally.

WE are the users to blame for, because everybody was eager to install W7 without any precautions (installation of XXH on a separate music system only).

Well, partly. I mean, maybe I should have been the early adopter just to try it out on behalf of you all. But to be honest, usually there's just no time for something like this, which I'd rather call "playing around" (if it were for beta versions anyway).

But I guess there is hope. That is, I start to see how W7 behaves (I see patterns now) and although I didn't start tackling it, at least it is a base;

What I see is what actually has been reported by a few, and that is that something has to learn to settle down. It is/feels completely strange to me, but for instance right after the conversion of an album - all the IO's long gone - it seems that the OS is out of breath and for a few minutes it needs recovery. This is "why" people experience a stall of sound at the first time something additional has to be performed, like showing the Wallpaper for the first time (actually the second, when the OSD time should jump in).

I can stop-start-stop the development environment as much as I want, but as soon as I do that right after playback, stopping it (!) takes a minute. A minute of nothing ! Play briefly (like 10 seconds) no problem, but play a whole track and there you go. Should indicate memory reorganization (garbage collection) but I don't see it happening.

Anyway ...

Since I encountered a severe degradation of sound at one time (just severe enough to call it destortion by something else), by now I'm fairly confident it is this "learning process" which does it (negatively). Something like : allow playback for a few minutes, stop, play again the same album (no conversions needed now) - and everything is used to it and now it sounds normal. I know, far out, but this is how it seems to come to me.

Or what about this one :
In 0.9y-5 I pre-read (and write) complete albums (but per track) in certain situations. Let's say each album contains 60 minutes of music. If that album contains 4 tracks it may be over and done with within 5 seconds. But if it contains 30 tracks it may take 2 minutes.
Why ?

So you see, I have a few "hard" things now of which the behavior can be copied and which can be sorted out. From there maybe they can be solved, or otherwise MS may work things out for SP1.

The main message is that I think SQ can end up allright if only things have settled down (better read : have recovered from). Mind you, this may not be the same for everyone. For example, do *not* copy to XX Drive and just have WAVs instead of FLACs, and not much has to recovered from to begin with.
... And as I just realize ... what I mentioned above about that pre- reading and writing ... nobody has that (yet). Only me.

Just hold on !

[Telstar]

Btw, I upgraded from Vista, and it has not been a fresh install. But I doubt this will make a difference.

Oh, it can! uprading is never recommended. That also explains the dirty SSD.

[PeterSt]

That also explains the dirty SSD.

Yes, of course.

[AUDIODIDAKT]

After reading that thread about mall-functioning SSD's
Would not trust an upgrade.

W7 (Vista too) does "learn" somehow, kind of "prefetching" or settling down.
It becomes faster after a couple days.
When all programs and/or services are "spoken" to, it becomes more quiet. (This is also the case after a reboot, it takes minutes to settle down)
I don't know what accually happens, I am not a computer savy.

But things as stalling or freezing up, nothing like that happens over here,
I really "abuse" my setup by doing several heavy things at once.
Everything is always instant (Milliseconds)(except when some software has to start for eg. a sleeping hdd)(witch is stupid sometimes)
Even when its idle for hours, I open an program, all is instant.
Computer is defenitly faster than me.
This doesn't say anything about SQ, but hope you can manage to get xx less OS dependable (hope this will be the case when writing your own drivers and codecs)

Oh, something else,

Peter can it be possible that when playing Attended (or Unattended), 1 flac track is being converted by 4 (0r 2) cores.
I believe you do the same with flac/cue, just cut of a piece

Can you devide a flac track by 4 and then convert by 4 cores! (something like a fake cue)
Can this speed things up ?? (think about for eg. klaus schulze tracks, long)
So instead of 4 tracks being converted by 4 cores, just convert 1 track by 4 cores

Roy

[DannyD]

I'm considering back-revving Windows from Windows 7 to Vista based on the reports of superior SQ with XXHE.  Before I decide to do that, can someone tell me how XP stacks up for XXHE?  I hear pretty regularly that XP is still the preferred platform for other computer-music components.  It seems to me that XXHE is pretty unique in its preference for Vista.  I'd rather kill two birds with one stone if I go to the trouble.  Thanks for your help.

[Calibrator]

Before I decide to do that, can someone tell me how XP stacks up for XXHE? 

G'day Dan,

as you are running Win7 currently you will derive no benefit from going backwards to WinXP, as you will lose the ability to use Engine#3 in XXHE. It is the latter that currently brings a noticeable improvement over alternative applications. If I'm right in assumming you have only been using XXHE now for a few months, I would suggest you continue experimenting with different parameters, particularly the "Q" ones, to get a good feel for how XXHE performs currently on your hardware.

Once you are happy that you have eeked out the best that XXHE has to offer on your current system, then by all means consider trying Vista as a comparison, but be sure nothing changes in the way of hardware when doing that or it may cloud the judgement. Going from one OS to another is most easily done using multiple partitions and a boot manager.

In the meantime, those of us who have been around for longer can perhaps more readily distinguish the differences between Vista and Win7, which should make it easier for novices to chose which O/S to ultimately end up with.

It goes without saying though, if you are PC savvy, and this applies to all here, feedback to Peter will be greatly welcomed if you are able to compare the two OS'es side by side.

Cheers,

Russ