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Author Topic: Inverted Phase is not good  (Read 25593 times)
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edward
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« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2007, 09:14:16 am »

Hey Peter - you haven't replied to my last response, so I was just wondering where you stand on this. I just tried version 0.9m and you have done good things here. However, the SQ with Invert checked is still different than 0.9k. In some ways I like it (0.9m) better, and in other ways it lacks the detail of 0.9k. (Of course, when playing 0.9k, I have manually set the priorities and affinites the same as 0.9m achieves automatically.)

So I was wondering, is the Invert function in 0.9m the same as it was with 0.9lb, or did you make further modifications?

BTW, with 0.9m and Invert checked, there is no crackling and gapless works. Success.
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Home built PC (Zalman TNN-300 Silent Case = Intel E2160 - Dual Core 1.8GHz) => Vista (Home Premium) => RAMDisk => M-Audio Audiophile USB (AK4528 DAC) Latency 128 =>

April 19, 2008
0.9u-14a (Double, No Invert, Mem Unchecked, Volume -24dB ** Q1 = -1 ** Player Priority=Low ** Thread Priority=Realtime ** Core Appointment Scheme-1 ** Unattended)
PeterSt
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« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2007, 09:45:30 am »

True Edward ... had to find an appropriate answer ... or in fact, I have/had one, but you may not like it that much. Wink

In the later versions -which exactly I can't tell- had slipped in some debug code for this matter. So, this was active in production unintendedly. blush1 This debug code did just *not* activate Invert, but the math to correct a 2 byte positive integer (as what is used in Redbook) while half of it represents negative (volts), was still active but now wrongly applied. In fact, with Invert the lot was DSPd a bit ... and certainly did not invert the phase.  blush2

Now it is working properly, and what you might perceive from it is untouched data, whereas before it was mangled with (though unintended). So now the phase is just inverted, nothing else. So what you are dealing with now is that maybe you have to learn how to hear the difference.

But careful now ...
The Phase Inversion, though originally setup to satisfy those who are disturbed by wrong absolute phase, when finished was not officially implemented at first because of the perceived idea of it not being useful because it hardly occurs that a whole song is recorded with wrong absolute phase, and merely individual elements (singer, guitar, the snare drum) are. However :
When the Q1 was introduced, it occurred that at certain "levels" of Q1, now Invert suddenly could make the difference of the world. Btw, this was when the bug as described above did not get into the production version yet.

Moral : When Q1 starts to be, say, nasty, it is exactly the point where Phase Invert will drop your jaw. That is, it looks like the general experience from people; not only my own. This phenomenon by itself implies that there are also Q1 settings where Invert hardly makes a difference (think of +90 vs. -90 degrees).

Phase is the most important phenomenon within audio IMO. Not so much to the sense of "proper phase" but far more in the area of properly aligned.

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For the Stealth III LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - July 17, 2021 (2.11)
XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 14/28 cores in BIOS and set to 10/20 cores via Boot Menu) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/0/0/*1*/ Q1Factor = *4* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *10ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *10.13*  (max 10.13) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *62* / Nervous Rate = *1* / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filtering *Low* (16x) / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^3
A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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PeterSt
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« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2007, 09:49:33 am »

(Of course, when playing 0.9k, I have manually set the priorities and affinites the same as 0.9m achieves automatically.)

I doubt that ... although you could have done it technically. Happy
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For the Stealth III LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - July 17, 2021 (2.11)
XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 14/28 cores in BIOS and set to 10/20 cores via Boot Menu) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/0/0/*1*/ Q1Factor = *4* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *10ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *10.13*  (max 10.13) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *62* / Nervous Rate = *1* / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filtering *Low* (16x) / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^3
A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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edward
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« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2007, 10:06:57 am »

In fact, with Invert the lot was DSPd a bit ... and certainly did not invert the phase.  blush2

I think I mentioned this before. I also felt that the detail I was experiencing (with 0.9k) might have been inaccurate (or crazy exaggerated in certain frequencies) and it did sound (dare I say) a bit too digital (or maybe what you refer to as squary).

...there are also Q1 settings where Invert hardly makes a difference (think of +90 vs. -90 degrees).

That's exactly the impression I was getting while playing around with 0.9m. Phew! I thought maybe you forgot to activate it or something.

OK, well, thanks for the explanation. All makes sense now.
Logged

Home built PC (Zalman TNN-300 Silent Case = Intel E2160 - Dual Core 1.8GHz) => Vista (Home Premium) => RAMDisk => M-Audio Audiophile USB (AK4528 DAC) Latency 128 =>

April 19, 2008
0.9u-14a (Double, No Invert, Mem Unchecked, Volume -24dB ** Q1 = -1 ** Player Priority=Low ** Thread Priority=Realtime ** Core Appointment Scheme-1 ** Unattended)
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