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Author Topic: Challenging hiend cd player/transport result  (Read 160256 times)
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PeterSt
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« Reply #150 on: January 11, 2011, 02:02:12 pm »

Haha Gerard - maybe some small additions :

Quote
Distortion and resonances in speakers are a lot of times stronger than those in good vinyl recordplayers.

Theoretically true, but practially less useful. Try to think like this :
a. Any distortion in the source is multiplied by the gain (sort of);
b. Next any distortion (always square-like) can't be delt with by exactly that speaker you refer to.

So, 10 times wrongish, the other way around.

Ad b. :

Quote
The funny thing is XXHE is so much better then digital replay some years ago and to a lot of people getting closer to the analogue sound.

By stupid software alone ? come on ...
Ah, wait. See b. above. Happy
See ?

Quote
At Peter's demonstration it was easy to hear that the higher sampling rates sounded closer to what I like from vinyl.

Although you speak the truth for 100%, that higher sampling rate didn't show you anything even close to what it should be - and *can* be. Ehh, is ? I recall one person
a. knowing my sound reproduction;
b. who was at the demonstration;
c. owns an NOS1.
He may be more objective than I am (or can believed for) ...

Moral for now : don't bind any conclusions to what you heard so far, were that at random fine places or Amersfoort (ditch that experience Happy).

Quote
The naturalness and the true colours and timing of the sound.

Mine : the dullness, slowyness BUT ease (because of that) which makes you drill your ears with anything near by.
I can't help it. But with some "other" experience, it wants you to turn your head inside out, hoping for a more direct and more fresh sound. Something with attack. Something that doesn't show (grayish) cymbals without the attack preceeding it.

It is hard to explain, but the last example is killing; How can you listen to the sound of something, while knowing that that sound can only emerge after hitting it - hence the necessary attack. Oh, I listened to that long enough, but this was without the other experience. Now ? now my brains won't cope anymore. This is more serious that some stupid alinea wanting to make a point. It will make you ill, once you "know" how things should be.

Quote
In part it reminds me of the difference of analog and digital photography which is (or will be?) won by the latter..

Nice one. And, IMO is won for some 10 years by now, I think.
But ... not completely true. Digital photography can only win from analogue once you know what to NOT make pictures from, or under what conditions NOT to do that. So, it is more difficult, but once it's under your control you won't know about the differences anymore (read : I have been "struggeling" to make really nice pictures the first few years, and today I couldn't even think of what I did wrong at first ... making photos for over 30 years before that already).
Of course I am trying to find further analogy with audio, but I don't think I can. Or it should be about NOS stuff and its much better base, but its sheer infinitly more difficulties to finish it off properly (with the clear idea that I at last managed, after it being around for over 30 years).


One last hopefully nice thing to think about :
Audio - and its sound quality through loudspeakers is not subjective at all. NOT I said. First though, we need to be over that hurdle and leave the disturbing stuff behind us. I mean, choosing out of disturbances (distortions) and which sounds best, *is* subjective, because always when one thing gets better, the other goes the other way around. This changes when you can compare with reality; I don't need to tell you how a trumpet should sound to my or your speakers. Just blow on one, and you will know ...

Times are really changing ...
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A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
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*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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GerardA
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« Reply #151 on: January 11, 2011, 02:20:43 pm »

Well, I hope I can make this step into the new times soon too!

Talking about photography, I've been scanning my parents 40 years old holyday colour slides lately and am very surprised at how good they look with some good scanningsoftware. Much better than was possible 40 year's ago.
Now I have a lot of respect for the Agfa and Kodak engineers that were able to make so nice looking pictures, really artistic, although not as close to reality, but a littlebit like a painting. Some Kadachrome lovers around here maybe?
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PeterSt
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« Reply #152 on: January 11, 2011, 02:29:17 pm »

Haha, not me. The only thing I can refer to is to the Kodak DCS-14 which was one of the early digital SLR cameras. lacking ...
a filter. A very similar filter we talk about in Audio, and it allowed to zoom in right to the 1:1 level, things not getting less sharp because of doing that (try that with any other camera). The NOS principle ...
One thing : you really had to know what to shoot, or otherwise you'd have aliasing in the picture ...
To a certain degree that counts for "plain NOS" the same. Know what to play and all sounds great. Leave out massive stuff though, or the distortion piles up and it will be quite messy.

That filter is just *needed*, but the implementation of it matters.
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XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 14/28 cores in BIOS and set to 10/20 cores via Boot Menu) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/0/0/*1*/ Q1Factor = *4* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *10ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *10.13*  (max 10.13) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *62* / Nervous Rate = *1* / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filtering *Low* (16x) / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^3
A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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« Reply #153 on: January 11, 2011, 02:38:56 pm »

Imho this is all about the 'transparancy of the medium and not about sound quality per sé. I believe digital is more transparent than vinyl analog, though I now still have a preference for the latter. With digitalplayback is it with a great effort possible to get very close to the stuff that is stored in the medium. With stuff I mean the music including the processing distortions (mixingtables, bad psus or grounding, jitter in conversion to digital, clipping); this can be beautifull but also very disturbing. The question is: do we really want this transpareny on all our records?

What still puzzels me most is that XX still manages to get a very pleasant and revealing sound dispite the cr*p that me be stored in the bits.

On the topic of ripping: I believe bit identical rippings may very well sound different, regardless of powercords, clamps and weights. At this forum we make take as a fact that the dataretrieval is influencing sound quality. Though this may seem academic, noise may be recorded along on a magnetic bearer like a spinning disc and finds it way to the dac at playback. Also a second rip may be divided differently over the free memory chuncks of the storage medium and consequently induce a different jitter pattern at playback. If the playback chain is this sensitive, one can imagine other magnetic/electric phenomena having an effect on SQ (like data in a RAM buffer that is moved around or processes variably drawing currents from the psu, etc). I believe everyone that claims to hear a difference between rips.


regards, Coen

p.s. when confronted with the choice, I prefer beauty over accuracy. I have a (filterless) FOVEON SIGMA SD14 camera just for its dense colours and 3d-ness. Many generic CFA CANONs and NIKONs may be more accurate (sharper and more true to the real colours), but never get that special SD look and feel. One can also debate forever on this topic...
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Audio PC (jan 19): XXHE PC v1 with RAMdisk w.o. videocard and 1 of 2 cpu fans + BRIX/USB3 storage musicserver. ETN to Fibre converters (linear supplies), 500m SFP modules & 5m OM4 cable. Power cable PE not connected, together with nos1 and poweramp in separate "audio" powerstrip.

Clarixa set + Intona (or Lush 1m), Phasure NOS1a-75B G3 USB (buf 16 ms)-> Blaxius ->SE EL95 (0,8W triode) + cheap link to Abaqus 300W plateamps> Bastanis cable-> Bastanis Sagarmatha Duo ("DIY").

[other sources: TD124/3009SII-i/Grace F9/lounge LCR phono; Rega Planet 1997 vintage]
PeterSt
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« Reply #154 on: January 11, 2011, 03:18:25 pm »

Quote
I have a (filterless) FOVEON SIGMA SD14 camera just for its dense colours and 3d-ness.

Funny ... You don't want to know how much I have been looking between that DCS-14 and the Foveon back then. Both intrigued as much, but the Foveon couldn't cut it (ok, IMO) for the resolution. It took me a year to eventually get me a Canon, knowing that at least all was "right" in there (which was doubtful to me for both the others).

... as I used an oversampling Audio Note back then ...
(garage sale here within due time Happy)

In either case there's analogy with pictures (movies) and audio, and a lot I do is based on the possible visualization from pictures/movies. It's not the same, but elements are, and proof by the eye can be very helpful (by no means that can be subjective IMO).
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For the Stealth III LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - July 17, 2021 (2.11)
XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 14/28 cores in BIOS and set to 10/20 cores via Boot Menu) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/0/0/*1*/ Q1Factor = *4* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *10ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *10.13*  (max 10.13) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *62* / Nervous Rate = *1* / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filtering *Low* (16x) / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^3
A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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« Reply #155 on: January 11, 2011, 03:29:42 pm »

Interesting!

The paralell with audio is that I beleive the foveon technology to be potentially superior to CFA (no AA filter, 3 layer tech). In its SD14/15 implementation the result can be very pleasing but is not allways accurate. Engeneers have perfected the three layer technology for the upcoming SD1. Sample pictures have been stunning, both accurate and beautifull. This is probably the equivalent of XX and NOS1 in digital playback!

regards, Coen

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Audio PC (jan 19): XXHE PC v1 with RAMdisk w.o. videocard and 1 of 2 cpu fans + BRIX/USB3 storage musicserver. ETN to Fibre converters (linear supplies), 500m SFP modules & 5m OM4 cable. Power cable PE not connected, together with nos1 and poweramp in separate "audio" powerstrip.

Clarixa set + Intona (or Lush 1m), Phasure NOS1a-75B G3 USB (buf 16 ms)-> Blaxius ->SE EL95 (0,8W triode) + cheap link to Abaqus 300W plateamps> Bastanis cable-> Bastanis Sagarmatha Duo ("DIY").

[other sources: TD124/3009SII-i/Grace F9/lounge LCR phono; Rega Planet 1997 vintage]
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« Reply #156 on: January 11, 2011, 03:36:15 pm »

Quote
Also a second rip may be divided differently over the free memory chuncks of the storage medium and consequently induce a different jitter pattern at playback.
This would be a reasonable explaination for different sound qualities you get from the same data. There are for sure a lot of things inside the computer that can change the sound. Hardware and software can make a difference, as we all experience every day.
But It is important that we accept, that the data itself is not depending on things like powercords, cables, drives as long as everything stayes in the digital domain and is read out with propper set up software. Anything else would be nonsense.

Quote
I believe everyone that claims to hear a difference between rips.
I do beleave those poeple that claim to hear differences in different achieved data too. But we should never forget, that our ears and our brain is no gauged meassurement equipment. Perception can change by so many things like mood, expectations, things that somebody told us.... So everyone always should consider this, if he thinks he hears a difference and it is far better than before. It is a mental thing.
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