Newbie Problems

[PNCD]

Installed 0.9y-4 on dedicated Vista music player with Weiss Minerva via Firewire.
No installation problems, but
1. Playing 24/88.2 Linn files brings up error box saying Engine 3# has terminated.  Clicking that brings up a notification that Engine #3 did not restart.  This doe snot happen with any specific file nor after any specific number of tracks.
2. I cannot find anything resembling user guide for how to manage Playlist/Library/Gallery (whatever that is).  I am experienced with PC audio but this user interface is not obvious as to how to arrange playback.  Yes, I use the internal Explorer view but how to get from there to playback seems to be trial-and-error.
Looking forward for using XXHE for playback of Redbook and HiRes files.

[PeterSt]

Hi there newbie !

Yes, I can imagine your problems, just diving into this, not having followed anything from the beginning. And no, there is no user guide yet, awaitening the out-of-beta stage. However, everything is in the Release Notes, bit I don't advise you to go through them (by now hundreds of pages I think).

So for now, what is the most important. Allright, let's say that this is not your #1 (the Linn files), because they just should play. But, may they be of utmost importance for you anyway at this moment, just think of using too much memory perhaps and the "Split file at size" parameter in the Settings Area. Set it to 100MB to begin with; later -when things work- you can always set it higher.

But now your #2. Well, let's assume you have a main folder somewhere you music is in. Now, go to the Settings Area, and denote the "Music Root" parameter to that folder. Next go to the Library Area, and wen that folder is not showing at the bottom (text field), get it in there as well. Next click Search. All your albums should appear in the Library Area now, and next you can click (select) one, and click Load. This loads the tracks of that album in the Playlist Area, and now they are ready to play (ah, you know how to do that).

This is the base of it I think, while numerous other possibilities exist. Notice that all "items" have rightclick context menus, like tracks in the Playlist Area have, albums (or tracks) in the Library Area have, and also the Coverart Items in the rightmost pane have (drag the right border of the screen to the right for that),

For now I hope this gets you on the "track" somewhat. But in any case
Peter

[PNCD]

Thanks, Peter
#1 is fixed.
#2 is bizarrely difficult.  I think that you require an Album to be a Folder.  I have folders by Album Artist with all Albums.  The only way to make that work is selecting by individual track (Individual Album is grayed out).
I have Undemoed and will just wait another year or so to see where you have gotten to - it is a lovely work of passion and commitment.  Thank you.
Peter

[SeVeReD]

Thanks, Peter
#1 is fixed.
#2 is bizarrely difficult.  I think that you require an Album to be a Folder.  I have folders by Album Artist with all Albums.  The only way to make that work is selecting by individual track (Individual Album is grayed out).
I have Undemoed and will just wait another year or so to see where you have gotten to - it is a lovely work of passion and commitment.  Thank you.
Peter

Hang in there PNCD.  It's not too difficult to set up 'Galleries' which is what I think you'll want to do.  I'll try to help as I have time too.  Can you give an example of how you have your folders/files set up?  For example my folder structure is set up as either of the following:

Rock (folder) > Pink Floyd - Dark Side of the Moon (folder) > (music & picture files ... usually a wav/cue & jpg files)
,,, or ,,,,
Rock (folder) > Pink Floyd (folder) > Dark Side of the Moon (folder) > (music & picture files).
,,,or,,, lately
Rock (folder) > Pink Floyd - Dark Side of the Moon (folder) > (music files) & Image (folder) > jpg files

I know others have different structures... I just didn't understand what you were saying above how you have them organized.

[PeterSt]

It's not too difficult to set up 'Galleries' which is what I think you'll want to do.

Peter,

I think SeVeReD makes the mistake here at looking for something which could be more difficult than "doing nothing", and which Galleries -very far- may be. But, as how it comes to me, you are having just problems with the "nothing".

Let me first say that something seems to be wrong in your "possibly fixed in one direction" approach. Thus, to me it looks like you have seen something like "Load individual tracks in the Playlist Area" and that's it. Well, this at least tells (as it seems) that you got some albums listed in the Library Area, right ? Ok ...

No matter how you have organized your folder structure, XXHighEnd is able to deal with it. So, this requires NOTHING. You search in the (root) folder as indicated, and within no time everything is there. I think you have seen that, but somehow think that what you see is not suitable for "working with it".

So, we have that list of albums in the Library Area.

All further stuff works with "selecting", and clicking the coverart of an album selects it. Notice that you can select as many as you want by Windows means of selecting (like cltrl-click to add another selected).
The most obvious thing you'd want is to play that album. This means you have to load it in the Playlist Area. The Load button is for that (but double clicking the album would do it too). After doing this, you will see the tracks of the album in the Playlist Area.
This is just loading up the Playlist Area, and not playing, because that requires Play (hehe).

This was one means, and maybe not the most obvious one, but sure the most powerful one, because it is the Library Area which determines what to select from, and the contents is completely determined by you. I mean, where you now may look at the plain contents of your (or a) original music folder, there are numerous ways to fill the Library Area, and one of them is the "Gallery" means SeVeReD was referring to. Never mind that for now, because that's not your problem (I think).

A quite other means to get (or "load") tracks into the Playlist Area, is just by dragging tracks from Windows Explorer onto it. Or, a complete folder (hence album) perhaps. Ah, it will be this latter (drag a folder onto the Playlist Area) you were looking for from within that one function "Load individual tracks" which ... obviously is there to just load individual tracks ... Yes, and then you get wild because it is a most awkward means to load an album, and drag the whole folder from there does not work. Not from there.

Well, I think we are getting there already. Right ?

Now look at the "Explore ..." options everywhere showing. Aha, but that is the most convenient ! (better try instead of let me explain it by words). So *now* you indeed can do what you wanted to do in the first place by means of thet grayed out "load album" option, which option btw is grayed out because it is completely superfluous, and the whole option should be removed (you'll see, I'm sure).
So, these "Explore ..." options bring some more than just "explore" because they combine the convenience of the means itself with the location you are in the Library or whereever, which you don't necessarily know otherwise ! But, to really get the grasp of this, you first should visualise that you have 10 disks attached, the structures on them not necessarily being the same everywhere, you just looking at the "flat" list of albums in the Library Area (which really can show everything of all the disks at the same time), you not knowing where the original folder actually is. And yes, you can also be looking at Galleries, which are just meta data copies of it all, and in the end much comes down to maintenance. Keep in mind, today tou have 10000 albums, but in a year's time you'll have 20000 with maybe over 50000 coverart files.

Ok, I'll stop here. But really, at doing "nothing" all should go by itself, if you only had found that Load button.
If my presumptions are correct, I'll try to make something more obvious for it. If you triple over it, anybody can, and it is only a *good* thing you mention it.

Peter

[PNCD]

Peter, I do not mean to take your time with this.
My music is organized like this: ReadyNAS Pro\Media\Music\Album Artist then all tracks by that Album Artist in FLAC with consistent naming of files and Tags, including cover art.
Example: \Media\Music\Candye Kane - 26 files belonging to 2 albums.
I go to Library and select \Candye Kane from internal Explorer.  Library shows one cover image with the directory path and (FLAC).  Double-clicking on that image selects all the tracks and adds them to the playlist - very dangerous for some directories that have hundreds of tracks as this takes a LONG time. 
Clicking on the Library image shows two cover art JPGs in the right-hand space (Gallery?)  Right-clicking these images shows a list of options, mostly about manipulating the image itself.
Right-clicking on the Library image shows other options.  Load albums is grayed out.  Load individual tracks is available.  Selecting that opens an Explorer window to select files, which I can do and they go to the Playlist.
If I do not do this but try to Search for an album in the Candye Kane directory, I can enter "Whole Lotta Love" in the Search box.  This just displays the same image in the Library space.  Double clicking this adds all tracks again.
Playlist tracks are automatically sorted by Track No - I see there is an alternative by Date.
So.  I think XXHE has no database or data model based on Tags.  I think Album means the lowest level folder object.  I think cover art is just JPGs in the lowest level folder (assumed to be Album).  I have no idea what Search is searching on since the filenames include the Album name.
Therefore.  I will restrict XXHE to only my HiRes directory path and take advantage of its ability to pass Hires files with changing sample rates to my Minerva.  That is fine and good enough.  I will not use it as a player for the 60,000 other Redbook files that I have because I am not will to reorganize into 5,000 directories by Album!
No problem whatsoever.  Thank you.
Peter

[PeterSt]

Aha. So, Peter, Am I right on this :

You have a "deepest" folder that denotes the artist, and in that folder all the "tracks" of that artist are stored, regardless the album ?

If that is true, indeed you (we) would need tag data to discern the albums. But this can't work !!

(yes of course it can, because you want it like that, haha)

The point is, if you want to let this work, your only solution would be to store ALL the coverart per track (thus "in" the track, which technically can be done). But this is as (sorry for the word) "redundant" as hell. I mean, I guess you know that a common download these days take 5-7MB per picture of "coverart" while 10 of that may be in there easily (the booklet). So, the coverart -as your only means to story it- will take more space than the album itself. In IT we tend to say (and sorry again) : this is not "normalized". Thus, the coverart belongs to the album, and should be stored with the album (read : not with the tracks of it).

So, it is this what XXHighEnd anticipates upon, and it is this (normalized) structure which it can cope with, no matter how strange you have organized things (a point of attention is always the multi-volume albums because quite some creative possibilities exist to store the coverart for that).

All 'n all now I understand how you have it organized, and while you are allways right to do it like you want., it is "wrong" for the perception of XXHE (ok, which is me).

I have no idea what Search is searching on since the filenames include the Album name

Not 100% correct, because you can search on the track names just the same (fill the textbox now showing "A" with "T").


One serious question : do you indeed have stored the coverart as tag data within the tracks ? or ... or do you not bother about coverart at al ?? the latter would explain everything, but ... it is not "correct" so to say.

otoh :

I go to Library and select \Candye Kane from internal Explorer.  Library shows one cover image with the directory path and (FLAC).  Double-clicking on that image selects all the tracks and adds them to the playlist - very dangerous for some directories that have hundreds of tracks as this takes a LONG time.

Something is not right here. This suggest "one coverart" for several albums. How to do that ? a picture of the artist ?

All 'n all I respect your way of working, but I don't see how it ever can be convenient, nor do I see how to go about with the coverart per album. So I think you must be "skipping" something there, and next have a nice way of working for yourself (without appropriate coverart that is). Uhm ... I think.


Please note that I appreciate your comment about me not spending time on this very much, but now accept my wanting to help anyway. Haha. I'm serious.

Thanks !
Peter

[PNCD]

Not quite, Peter.  The lowest folder is Album Artist not Artist.  Therefore each folder does contain all the tracks of an album - some Album Artists are "Various Artists" or "Soundtracks" etc.  Artist is part of the filename.
All coverart (one image only) is stored in the file tags for each track - redundant, yes, but also comprehensively simple and storage is cheap.  I have an IT background to and the issue here is that tracks are independent files that can be played in any order or ported to other devices individually.  My 19 year-old daughter hardly knows what an album is, but she has lots of tracks.....  Albums are pre-packaged playlists, not the primary atomistic entity.
Yes, I see now that I can search for the album name using the T flag.
No, it means that \Candye Kane is a folder with two albums and two cover art JPGs.  These JPGs do not need to be in the folder (and usually are not) since the image has also been stored in file tags.
I assume that I am correct that there is no database with tag details behind a 'library' object.  You could still do this without a database by reading the Library collection and storing the tags in a non-persistent array.  That, unfortunately, does expose you to all the issues of tag inconsistency.....
Thanks,
Peter

[PeterSt]

Interesting ...

Not to keep the discussion going, but from IT to IT, wouldn't you say that you are dealing with a monster here ?
Of course, it -so called- solved the problem for those carrying iPods, but this is the problem of the iPod, not the problem of real life. In other words, when you look closely (I'm assuming you can by now) you will see that it is exactly that problem I solved. Not a bit, but 100%. However, in order for you to really get that grasp, I must ask you to create a main Gallery Root, create a "genre" folder under it, and stuff one track in there (by means of Add to Gallery; you can create the structure from there if you want). Not a whole album, one track. Did you see what happened ? ... now add another track of the same album to the same genre Gallery folder. ... You see ? *that* is normalized.

It is also the most natural means of doing this all, thinking of "databases" versus what we are all used to on PCs. It's just folders. That an iPod, iTunes, name it won't understand that is not my fault, and I certainly don't think I should start to do it explicitly wrong to support the wrong.

Mind you Peter, this is different from not wanting you help out with this, because I want to. But what comes to my mind as the only valid solution is generating the coverart from the tags, in a means that afterwards looks like if it was so from the beginning, created "manually". After that you could call "my" generated coverart redundant, but of course yours is (this is no problem, but I just wanted to be ahead of you telling me th other way around )

I honestly don't think you will be having very many albums, because it would be unmanageble for coverart "your way". I know, you solve part of it by just having one main coverart, but this is not from today (and mind you, one year ago it was !). Today we see ourselves confronted with downloads, and all the "stupids" adding as much coveart as they can think of. I even saw pictures from the playable side of the CD ! The solution to this is not "sort it out and store that one most suitable to the tracks", but it is "store it all, and sort it out later when you have the time for it; in the mean time play music (from that same CD), and that includes seeing the coverart for me (no, for all, I dare say).

I assume that I am correct that there is no database with tag details behind a 'library' object.

You asked this before and I forgot to answer it. Sorry;
If you performed the "create a Gallery" thing I talked about before, you can well say Yes. But this is not what you mean of course, and thus, No, there is no such a database. In fact, I can still keep it up to work without a database at all, although this is only making it difficult on my side. Not on the user's side, because as said, he (/she) only looks at things he's used to. Folders and files. My own 13000 albums are always there within a fraction of a second (incuding all the coverart) so no database is needed for that. But I guess there will be a database at some stage, just for my own conveniency and further (search) possibilities. Later.

Where does this all leave us ?

I propose to generate the coverart from the tag data, but maybe you have a better idea that fits in the structure as I'm having it now. Please keep in mind, I'm in the leage of infinit upwards compatibility, which makes the "generating" thing valid for myself. Only then I can guarantee in advance that *everything* keeps on working as how it does now. But :
Exactly this solution most probably invalidates your own way of working after it's implemented. I mean, you will have all the possibilities to manipulate coverart (and watch 0.9y-5 which adds quite some useful explicit functions for that), but you will not have the means to upload that to the tag data again. This means your daughter will stay with the "old stuff", which of course is not wrong to bein with. But if you start to change coverart (find better pictures, make better scans), you of course will see what redundancy means (by way of speaking of course, because you sure know).

Lastly for now, XXHighEnd has been created for sound quality, and that will always prevail. However, as it turned out over the years, properly dealing with coverart became a huge "problem", and now this is a foremost issue to ever deal with. It's not a side issue, but a main issue. We -at ripping- don't cause it ourselves, but those uploading do. I mean, if I download something with the full booklet, I sure don't throw that away, and instead I create something so I can actually read the booklet when I want. Next, I may start ripping myself with scans of the booklets, or I may rescan my already ripped CDs for it. It is going like this, or at least in here it does for those who are really serious at "collecting".
You can also see this by the "Get data from the Internet" functionality, which (when it fully works again and which is NOT now) grabs everything it can find for data from Amazon, and stuffs it in a HTML file. Reviews, Editors Reviews, everything. Now, when this is the trend, it is not the intention to stuff one coverart picture in a track, nor do we try to stuff the "liner notes" pdf in a track.

I hope this makes sense ...
Peter



PS:
What file format are you using ?
What did you use to add the tag data ?

[PNCD]

Peter
You have very strong opinions and I am not trying to argue with you vis a vis your own product.  I have followed your site since inception and seen the evolution, and personalization, of the development process.  The genius of your approach is that it is your genius and no anyone else's.  I am not going to compete with you in a debate about your genius.
I agree that sound quality is uppermost and you seem to have done that with Engine #3 and the ability to stream variable sample rates without re-configuration.  Sound quality is why anybody will bother with XXHE, including me.
As I said, I will use XXHE for the limited purpose that takes advantage of its uniqueness in playing HiRes files.  That is only a few dozen albums.  I will use other applications that better suit my style to rip, organize and play Redbook files as that is about 5,000 albums.
As a fully paid-up customer of XXHE I look forward to the future developments of XXHE and its emphasis on sound quality.
Peter

[AUDIODIDAKT]

Hi PNCD,

Sorry but FGS,

Start using it, it grows on you.
Just simply compare it with foobar.
Then you know why xx is here, and if you don't, just use foobar.

You will have to spend some time on it, and there are so much people willing to help you.
Just be patience, I have been there, believe me.

REWARD: All 16/44 material sounds like HiRez.

Just make decent albums/folders structure.

There is only one objective here, and thats SQ.
Things are running very smooth now IMO.

XX Rules

Roy

I look forward to the future developments

XX IN THIS STAGE IS FUTURE DEVELOPMENT!!

[PeterSt]

Roy, I appreciate you enthusiasm, but I think Peter (like anyone for that matter) is perfectly allowed to have his own values. I think he just explained that, and thus why not respect it.

But Peter, do you want me to generate that coverart from your tag data, or rather not ? either answer is ok with me (but I like No less).

[PNCD]

Peter
I am still a user! 
If you want to add handling for cover art at a track level that would be great for me but from the start of this whole thread I made clear that I was not trying to be demanding - about anything. 
I am quite used to working with music player development teams as the products evolve and they all have compromises: the best user interface, the best tag management, the best ripping, the best playback.  I use different applications for each of those though they ALL do ALL the functions, just better/worse for my use.  I also regularly buy and try other applications, as I have with XXHE. 
I will keep using XXHE for a limited purpose - HiRes files.  This is not because Redbook does not sound 'best' on XXHE - I am sure it does, Roy - but because working with a large library brings in other considerations of usability, responsiveness, etc.  I am sure that you have other users with comparable libraries and they are willing to work with your structure because of how they weight the same considerations - such as SQ - differently than I do.  I am not comfortable working with XXHE for my whole library nor am I willing to change a file structure that works fine with my other applications in order to accommodate XXHE.
Just different perspectives based on different experiences and different priorities.  We all chose different cars and different HiFi systems.....
Thank you all for your suggestions and encouragement.  I apologize if I have offended anyone or taken up too much of Peter's time!
Peter

PS  I think SQ is a quest with no end, Roy.  CDs have problems.  DACs have problems.  Music production and mixing has problems.  Jitter has problems.  There is only so much XXHE can do to try and get a clean digital stream from wherever it is coming to wherever it is going.  XXHE is just trying to not ADD to the problems!

[AUDIODIDAKT]

Hi PNCD (Peter)

Sorry for my rude opinion, just trickering a response.

PS  I think SQ is a quest with no end, Roy.  CDs have problems.  DACs have problems.  Music production and mixing has problems.  Jitter has problems.  There is only so much XXHE can do to try and get a clean digital stream from wherever it is coming to wherever it is going.  XXHE is just trying to not ADD to the problems!

Agreed on that.
But CD-player is almost 30 years old, so we all try figuring out what is "next".
There is always place for opinions en suggestions, so............

Just rapping up my Library, man what a lot of boring work, but its on hdd's now, ready to be played.
Jukebox thats what it is, (where do I drop that Quarter?)

PeterSt, how does XX work on track-level, ayway
If I load 10 Tracks of 10 albums, do I get coverart with each track.(Guess not)
Can try this myself ofcourse, never had need for it, but would like to make some playlists.
Reference file list maybe, or best of, or best in genres and that shuffle is there too.
I will give this a try in the next coming weeks.
You have made adjustments for that.

Roy