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Author Topic: How to squeeze out that bass  (Read 13798 times)
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PeterSt
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« on: April 13, 2008, 10:45:07 am »


I went to a concert of Gare du Nord last Friday, and sat back (front row) once again to perceive the differences with live music versus playback in the listening room.
Btw, for those who auditioned them, what a strange bunch of dutch/belgian those are ... e.g. their mixing console looks from 40 years ago, as well as their equipment, including a vintage Rhodes electric piano and an old M-Audio keyboard fed by a brick adapter. I found no speakers radiating towards the audience, but everything was amplified. It's my guess we were listening to their own monitor speakers, possibly helped by the milk box bose speakers from the theatre (Holland-Kampen) itself.
For their live performance, well, I can't help it, but to me they are a bunch of zombies of barstools. No way they get in touch with the audience, probably incurred by (leader) Barend who IMHO better stay behind the scenes in order not to be so dictatorial and let the other band players more free. Very strange to witness this from otherwise very good music as I know it from their albums.
Also, the drumkit used, with one base drum, one snare, one small power tom and one jazz tom was apparently too few, because it was necessary to support the drummer with drumhits coming from whatever invisible device. Quite disturbing.

But then there was the bass guitar. Apart from my idea that the bass guitarist together with the trumpet player were best of the band, it occurred so much to me that the bass in my listening room s*cks;
Throughout all songs playedhe used two bass guitars (a 5 and a 4 string), and in each occasion - and at any note coming from those guitars (I mean also the high key notes) - I could clearly hear the individual vibes. Added to that the bass was played very profound, IOW with a volume way louder than I perceive it in the listening room. Mind you, not disturbing at all, just more loud, and clearly to me, free of resonance or fumbling (and of course the large space of the theatre contributed to that).

Yesterday I ran the same tracks from the albums I have of them, and there the bass is just "dark sound". Just bassy. No recognition from the instrument, no individual vibes as clear as I heard it on stage.
How can that be ?

Of course, the guy played with his own amplifier and speaker (wherever that resided), but it came to me that it was the speaker doing this. Must be very loose, or with a lightweight diaphragm, I don't know ...
But now there's this :

A few months ago I bought a bass guitar myself, and despite all the (PA) amps and speakers I own, I was advised to buy a dedicated bass guitar amp/speaker. "The energy a bass guitar produces is way beyond everyting else, but if you don't have the proper means for playback you won't even be able to surpass the drum kit" I was told.
And of course, we all know that the energy our bass speakers need is way more than the mid/high, and this kind of comes down to the same. But doesn't it get enough ? don't I hear those vibes because it gets fumbled because of bad acoustics ? do my speakers need better decoupling from the floor ?

NO. Why ? easy, because my own bass guitar with it's dedicated amp DOES produce those vibes. I didn't try it in the listening room, but I'm fairly sure it does. Indeed that (15") speaker has something like being very loose. But it's a PA thing !

On this matter I want to refer to another oddity that always has been occurring to me;
You might not believe it, but for me a good performing system could always be measured by perceiving synthesizers the best. Hmm ... but that's pure electronic "music" ! How come ?
Well, I can't tell about others, but I just own a couple of synthesizers, and it is obvious that I compare with those. Those too obviously play through their own amplification (hence not through my normal audio equipment) and those too play through their PA speakers. Are my "audiophile" speakers too refined, or what ?

We can hardly state that the normal audio equipment have to pass all the music information through one set of amps and speakers, knowing that those synthesizers (and keyboards for that matter) own all the variations of instruments (including drums), thus again all is mixed into one stream of piled music data. So it cannot be that.

Is my DAC worse than the DACs in a keyboard then ? hmm ... I hope not and can't imagine that.

It seems logical that it can be the source (the (ripped) CD and playback of it). And, of course, as we know that *does* matter.
But this is something different. This is about energy.


I am going to do a strange thing; I am going to drag down that bass guitar amplifier and speaker and connect it to the stereo.
Beware if it helps ! grazy
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« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2008, 06:09:06 pm »

Hi Peter,

Intersting puzzle or may be even a cryptogram on audio. First of all I do not have heard any track of that band untill now. But your observation intriques me. Also I am not a guitarist. I hope I have not misunderstand your post, so be it. Nevertheless some questions arise that can be of (little) help:

- are a didicated guitaramp the same as a audio dedicated amp? I have understand always that both are a little different animals with different goals. Especially a guitaramp is a special and integrated component to be used with a electric guitar. I think that was the reason for advising by the retailer of your guitar. Also guitarists use deliberately some kind of overdrive to use distortion paterns to create a musical taste or impact of their own. So my question is: are both sort of amps interchangable in such a way that in both situations the desired acoustic results are to be expected? OK they will both work electrically and make sound, but are they really comparable qua usability?

- another question is that of the acoustic circomstances; three totally different situations, two direct amped and the other from some recording on cd or whatever medium (much can happen as we all know between live performance and some endresult on a replay medium). Also there are uncertainties about bass energy handling (electronic, acoustic  or combined) in all three situations. Is it dynamics, soundlevel, narrow banded acoustic cancellation in the living room, not full synergy in the audiochain or just a special sound(-energy)result generated by the guitar, guitarist, guitaramp chain.... I do not know.

- Why not try the following: do you have an above average headphone and dedicated headphone amp, if yes: try the Gare du Nord tracks with some cd player in that chain. By that way you cut out all three other electronic/acoustic situations temporarily. If the bass is in that chain also dissapointing with respect to this energy point than I think the recording (or the copy of it) could be suspect. If not we have to search any further. If you have no access to a laptop/headphone rig I can eventually help you out in the process of eleminating, because I have such an above averidge rig that is easily movable. The below mentioned tracks give me more than enough bass energy with respect to expected transparancy in my livingroom and on different very good headphones.

-  do you have access to some well known tracks with kind of energetic music lines that can be compared to the tracks from Gare du Nord? I think of tracks from Michel Jonaz/La fabuleuse histoire de mister swing/especially 'le temps passé'; Robben Ford/Blue Moon/various tracs; Music from the film the Gladiator/different complex bass loaded tracks; some tracks from KODO Live at Acropolis; some tracks early recordings Dire Straits (private investigations comes to mind) or Michel Hedges on metal string guitar.......But undouptedly you have your own examples. Give your own examples of comparable low end tracks the same symtons in your audio in the living room?

Wish you much succes in your trials and I hope you find the solutions.

Pieter.

 
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« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2008, 07:05:50 pm »

Two different rooms also.  I know you were in the front row, but bass "trapped" in small rooms compared to a large venue could account for some big differences.  I know that if I shut the heavy woodend door to my listening room my room is practically sealed and the bass sufferes.  For best sound I have to open the door a certain amount to let the room "breathe".

For me, because of crossover changes and changing 3 subwoofer settings (after getting the new top-end amp), I'm still struggling to get back to the type of bass I had before.  Hopefully I can get in there today and do some adjustments.
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« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2008, 07:28:37 pm »

I have been getting good results using 2 Open Baffle 15" drivers. They seem to be far less room/position dependent, and can be crossed over a little higher (70HZ). The direct and reflected energy, really allows bass guitar specifically to shine. They do not dig much lower than 30HZ. 

Still a ways away from a live performance, but a little closer to my ears.

Cheers!
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PeterSt
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« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2008, 11:13:49 pm »

Pieter and all,

Thank you very much for your input !

Of course a (bass) guitar amp is a different beast. It even takes some investigation how to play with such an amp "cleanly", hence without any distortion applied. Ok, I got there, and then thought, oh, let's forget it. It can't be the way ...

Besides that, my (15") woofers already have a very low mass, and the only thing I could imagine is that my gainclone dedicated bass amps don't have the juice to drive them. But actually, no ... that should not be true either ...


With the various versions of XX it is not so easy tp keep track of all the (resulting) parameters that changed, and what you applied a previous time in order to attack the outcome concerned;
Today I thought about the less bass I applied a while ago (in the XOver) just because some XX version required that, and I just tuned it up again. Yep, I added some energy.
I was much satisfied tonight already, but I even will add more.


The open door thing I recognize, but as many of you will know, I am (XX is) into filling the room with much more bass than any unprepared room can have. And, following the Release Notes on XX and the comments on the versions concerned, you can see that this was going towards "less good" as I intend or am proud of for in fact the 0.9u versions. Not so anymore, which is most probably since 0.9u-13. The ability to feed the room with a rather infinit amount of bass just is back ...

For your interest, I am playing with subwoofers and all, and at 7 meters (approx. 21') distance, the SPL is 80dB on the low end (and for easy listening tracks), which btw does not say @1m this is 42dB or so more (this is because of the directional sound of horn speakers and possibly the circle shape of the "corners" behind the speakers). But anyway you can think of the room really being full of sound.

To put some context to this topic for those who don't know : what I am after is the 100% copy of the live (or studio) performance. So, getting the disturbances out of the way is long (well, a year or so) behind me, and from that point on it is only about reaching reality better. I think, generally spoken the cymbals have been the most difficult, and reaching their SPL as perceived from a live performance was achieved by uplevelling the highs with 16 dB (starting at 5K, lineairly up from there on). Does this incur for hearing distortion in the high frequencies ? no, just not ! In the contrary, things became too smooth of it, which was the very reason to create 0.9u (make things more metal). What it actually did was filling up "holes" in the lower frequency regions, taking away distortions ! As a matter of fact, I am using this for such a long time now, that it's my advise really to try this out.

Last Friday at the theatre I was telling my wife that we really could use much more bass to achieve reality. This appeared to be very much truth today, but only because it has tuned out. And as you will know, when standing waves take part of you(r room), you are lost for good bass. With the early 0.9u versions of XX this was just so. It disturbed me, and I complained about it. Today it is back. Just tune it up.
I must say though, that together with it, the more plastic like highs are back a bit. Too smooth.
Digital being too smooth ? oh yes.

But I'll find something for that again.
It could even be an XX-existing setting. Too many already ... wacko

But for now, I'm more keen on even more profound TOUT bass. I mean, few people will be about in your face smashing cymbals anyway. Smooth is more nice. But that bass, I ensure you, that will really make your day. It can be done without room treatment and without (PEQ) equalizing.
The bass is the leader of the band, but how often do you perceive it like that ? ... that's what I mean ...

Thanks,
Peter
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A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
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« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2008, 12:41:09 am »

Just a small update :

Currently I am 100% satisfied with a very pronounced bass as how I think it should be perceived. The tweak ? better impedance matching between the DAC and the power amps.

... and I keep on saying this : there is hardly something existing that is more important than the better impedance match;
So far, I could solve all real anomalies (hence real "bad" SQ) by means of diving into impedance problems.

Mind you, "problems" is big wording in this case. But I just got annoyed of not perceiving that GREAT completely separate bass as how I perceived it from the live performance, and I actually thought it was not possible without a (stupid) separate (additional) bass driver and amp. But it just is.

Happy Happy Happy
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XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 14/28 cores in BIOS and set to 10/20 cores via Boot Menu) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/0/0/*1*/ Q1Factor = *4* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *10ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *10.13*  (max 10.13) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *62* / Nervous Rate = *1* / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filtering *Low* (16x) / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^3
A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
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« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2008, 02:54:33 am »

Just a small update :

Currently I am 100% satisfied with a very pronounced bass as how I think it should be perceived. The tweak ? better impedance matching between the DAC and the power amps.

... and I keep on saying this : there is hardly something existing that is more important than the better impedance match;
So far, I could solve all real anomalies (hence real "bad" SQ) by means of diving into impedance problems.


Hi Peter.

As per my, not exhaustive, experience in the Hifi world the best way to achieve proper impedance matching between a DAC and the Amps is still to use a really good preamp (which also gives volume control; GREAT). The Problem is that such a world class preamp is not so easy to find even amongst the myriad of brands and, also, most of the time cost a "little fortune".
Personally, I use a Shindo Laboratory Monbrison partnered with Air Tight ATM-1 (NOS tubes).

With an excellent preamp, real fantastic BASS is usually back  Wink

Cheers


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« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2008, 03:45:36 am »

With an excellent preamp, real fantastic BASS is usually back  Wink

Oh yes. Back, or just newly there ... so true. By now I know the keyword is : noise;

What you need for high efficiency speakers is a buffer WITHOUT NOISE.
So no matter what (never mind the high efficiency) , the drive is needed. The problem is to get that without the amplification of noise.

dancing
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For the Stealth III LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - July 17, 2021 (2.11)
XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 14/28 cores in BIOS and set to 10/20 cores via Boot Menu) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/0/0/*1*/ Q1Factor = *4* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *10ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *10.13*  (max 10.13) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *62* / Nervous Rate = *1* / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filtering *Low* (16x) / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^3
A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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