Thanks for your thoughts Alain. I'm really just curious if the original has the same "hole in the center of the soundstage," thing, or if it's a function of a remastering job. It doesn't seem to me that with that kind of hole people would have raved about the recording. I'll find out myself eventually, but was curious if anyone happened to have noticed in the mean time.

-Chris

Peter you said "PS: By now I know that Pink Floyd's The Wall (normal studio version) sounds way better in MFSL Gold Disc."

Are you serious? If so, how so, i.e. how does it sound better. The version I have already sounds very good. I happen to really like some of "The Wall," very much. Also was one of the best concerts I ever went to, in part due to some unexpected circumstances, and of the course the great overwhelming music/sound/show, "Welcome to the Show."

-Chris

Has anyone listened to the other "great," Bill Evans album? It's another 1961 album "Live from the Vanguard," or something like that. I just have a few tracks from it and I'm not sure of their provenance. They might be from the remaster. "Keepnews Collection," is also part of the title--if that helps.

The reason I ask; The sound is really quite good, but the soundstage is odd, on my tracks anyway (tracks 2-5). It's almost as if I'm sitting behind the players. The bass and drums/cymbals are in the left speaker and the piano in the right. There is nothing really in the center besides audience sounds which at times are quite prominent. There's a lot of rude talking going on, sometimes it sounds like someone is talking right outside my window. It's this audience sound which makes it seem as if I'm sitting behind the performers. By the way, my system throws a very good soundstage normally so I don't think it's the system.

I recently ordered the original cd release (1990-91) so I'll be able to compare, but was just curious as to anyone else's thoughts.

-Chris

Flecko, I think you've got something there.

I did some recording of me as a one man band back in the 80's. I recorded onto a 4 track TEAC 3.5 speed cassette deck (not exactly super quality  ) Guitars (electric and acoustic) bass, flute, some percussion and voice with some overdubbing and minimal effects. I even lost the original and only had a copy on regular cassette to transfer (cheaply) to digital. I'm still amazed how decent it sounds. Noisy of course--tape hiss and such, but more musical sounding and enjoyable to listen to then some "professional," big act recordings. And I'm not talking about the quality of the music itself, just the sound.

I've also often heard the story that many recording engineers listen to poor quality speakers, so that they hear what they expect their audience to hear (what it might sound like in a car or an mp3 player) and then equalize and add effects accordingly. If that's true, or when it's true, that would also have a considerable affect. One would probably exaggerate things to make them more noticeable for the lesser quality systems. After all audiophiles don't listen to er, say Black Sabbath, or Rap master so-and-so. 

-Chris

It's sound systems like yours (and those big logging truck versions) that are causing me to have to mess around with floating my system, putting it on rollers and hoping it doesn't jiggle its way off and crush me while I sleep , I'd just like you to know. 

-Chris

That's probably true ...who needs good recordings..., however I don't know whether to credit the music or blame the recording engineer for giving me the blues when I listen.

-Chris

Peter said "Chris, take Oh Well. I recall that as the back side of a vinyl single, but here I'm talking about the 9 minute version. Try to imagine that I am telling you that the Spanish Guitar played on there sounds better than your live Spanish Guitar ...
Of course this can't be, but so good it actually is."

Ok, so I listened to Oh Well. I agree with you in part. The classical guitar sounded really really good, but only for about 30 seconds to a minute at about the 7 minute mark. At about the 5.5 minute mark it sounded lousy, slightly out of tune, and the way it sounds when I'm playing and thinking I can't get this thing in tune today, and it sounds like sh*t. But for some reason at 7 minutes it sounded great. It must have been added in later or something.

The track for the most part sounds like it was recorded in mono. The instruments are right on top of each other.

-Chris

So Peter, guess what. I am German, that would be Deutsch to you. Ya ich bin ein Deutscher. Ich bin nach der USA als kind.

So why did I say Dutchland? Because I'm goofy, sarchastic, silly and facetious, here, there and everywhere. So of course I know all the stuff you so elaborately put forth. I hope said is well absorbed by someone in need of it; I didn't mean to create yet another subject for you to write about. It's probably not fair of me to do this kind of stuff with language in emails and especially to non-native speakers, but I can't help myself. If I can't have fun writing I end up not writing at all. (And it's no better when I'm speaking, except that critics like Mani can't tell which form of 2 or yer I'm using).

As to the music and American-Japanese Subarus. This buggy had a good sound system in it, not uber good, but very good.

The other night, just after my note about the Get Yer Ya Ya's and loudness issue, I listened to a Wilco album (not in the Subaru). And lo and behold a section started playing that sounded like it had to be turned up to be enjoyed. It sounded cramped and small, insignificant (hard to put into words). But it was only this one part of the album. I couldn't turn it up to test it, as it was early in the morning. The rest of the album sounded fine, big, spacious, nice spread out soundstage at that relatively quiet level.

-Chris

So Mani, are you saying I used the wrong form of yer and 2?  Everybody's a critic.

Awl i no sho'nuff ain't nothin. Eye yam sew a shamed.

-Herr Christian

P.S. That's a hint Peter for my upcoming post. Apologies for too much Facetiousness and goofiness will play a prominent part in it.

"Hey, what do you think all this old stuff music differs from today's ?"

The answer was a bit surprising, but still in my own direction :

"This all has more depth. It's less fucked up. Less stressed."

What kind of music is she calling more fucked up, more stressed. In other words what had you normally been listening to? What's the comparison?

I'd been listening to Miles Davis from that period and before, a mixture from a boxed set. It too had what you're calling that "hollow," sound, although it doesn't really sound hollow (that wouldn't be good at all) but I sort of get what you're referring to. Anyway, I was impressed with the sound of many of the tracks on the cd (not all, although none were bad) . I've listened to it several times. It is definitely not at all as let's call it "pristine," as say Tord Gustavsen, or Patricia Barber. But it seems its all there, simple and just the music, buster. I don't know how exactly to put it. Quite different from today, but not necessarily worse.

A way I might put it, this happened with Love, who still has no (I repeat No No No) relation to the Moody Blues in any fashion other than they both were influenced by the MOR sound. Let me start again. On first listen, or rather on a not paying attention listen, one might not go back to the music easily because the sound, "well it doesn't seem very good, and I'd rather listen to great 'sounding,' recordings if I have my druthers since I have too much stuff to listen to anyway."

But if you happen to go back to it and listen more carefully, or you pay attention the first time, you realize that the recording is not a problem after all, as it matter of fact it's quite good, the music is all there. It's just not shiny and sparkly like a new diamond ruby bracelet, or Alfa Romeo--don't ask.

I found "Oh Well," on a Peter Green album, I don't know if it's the same version that you're referring to. I'll give it a listen tomorrow.

-Chris

P.S. Again. I wish I could afford your DAC but... Oh well, probably the rest of my system isn't good enough anyway. Don't want to put a diamond ruby bracelet on a hobo or a girl hobo (hoboette). But I'll tell you resetting up my system, carefully this time, has made a huge difference and sometimes I can't imagine it sounding much better.

By the way, somewhere you said you're English is bad. It is not bad at all, in fact it is very good. Many native English speakers don't write as well as you do. It's just when it gets to technical stuff, because the subject matter is already difficult, it becomes a morass and nightmare at times to figure out what's going on. What's Goin' On?

Peter said "Get Yer Ya Ya's out for me is THE example of a most poor flat sounding album, which can sound crazily good afterall. All it really needs is a better playback chain, but which mainly comes down the the DAC."

Then how do you explain that one of the best times I ever had listening to it was in a Subaru (car--do you Subaru in Dutchland?) cranked to the max.  The roo was rockin.  "Sympathy for the Devil," in particular. Maybe it's not a question of the DAC at all, but of volume.

-Chris

P.S. I'd crank it right now to test the theory, but it's 1:05 am, and I live in an apt building. Maybe you should test it, it's morning right? How does your wife like a crankin Mick and Keith at 6 a.m. ish?     or you for that matter?   

Peter said "Having said this, your remark about Gimme Shelter is exactly NOT why I like the SQ of it."

Peter, I think you misunderstood me. I was being facetious. I was saying because I liked the album it must have sounded good. I have no idea if it did sound good or not as I wasn't into the technical aspects of sound back then at all. And I wasn't saying/implying anything about why or if you liked it.

But I did listen to it (an older cd version) after your email, and I found that my favorite song sounded the least good. I found many Stones cds to have particularly bad sound although not "Let it Bleed," which sounds quite good, I think it was the later ones in particular, when they changed labels?  A lot of unintended (I hope) distortion--sounded like inner groove distortion all over the lp. It's all a little (lot) hazy in my memory.  I noticed this without particularly thinking about sound at that time (as I mentioned earlier).

Re my disclaimer about being aware/unaware of sound back then. There were a few things I was much too aware of. Inner groove distortion, Wow (of wow and flutter) which I couldn't stand the slightest bit of--I'm real sensitive to out of tune, and rumble.

-Chris

Peter said "But just from the Jimi Hendrix era and some Joe Cocker I'm not able to find anymore, is Led it Bleed. There I was 13 I guess, and only last week I played that heavenly album for about a first time since then."

I do believe that, not for any technical "great sounding," reason, but because it was one of my favorite albums ever and the song "Gimme Shelter," ranks way way up there. For that reason alone, it must have been a very good sounding album.

Tell me more about "Get Your Ya Ya's Out," if you don't mind. It's another album I think very very highly of. You use it for discerning what?

Peter said "Something about "do you care." I can't see it from here and I don't want to edit to find the real quote.

And do I care? not a wit, haha. Partly because I know nothing of the scandals to which you refer. But I do know I heard nothing similar to Love in my musically aware and discerning youth, haha again, (although there is a general MORness to the songs which some might confuse with similarity too...

-Christo, La Aficionado

Not to beat the subject to a pulp, but I will unless physically restrained; here's a quote from "Albums, the Stories Behind 50 Years of Great Recording."

"Frequently hailed as a classic of psychedelia, Love's third album, Forever Changes, is actually that much rarer artifact: and album that exists in its own category."

I think this implies at the least no specific influence, or very many influences very well digested and commingled. In other words no stinking badges, er... Moody Blues.

-Chris

Ok, I'm getting serious now. First of all I will not admit that I am at the moment while typing this listening to the Moody Blues, since that would imply that I own some of their music. But, if I were listening to them I would tell you that they did not influence LOVE. They don't know what love is, pathos maybe, sentimental hygiene--I mean slush, most likely. Yes that's it. Rather pleasant that "Nights in White Satin" though. 

And to further prove to you that the Moodys did not influence Love I did some research. Neither "The Great Rock Discography" by Martin Strong, nor All-Music cited the MBs as influences. They did cite among others, The Byrds, Beatles, Kinks, Zombies, Loving Spoonful and Hollies.

And last but surely least they both started pretty much at the same time and Love's better albums just slightly preceded MB's known albums. It's likely that Love never even **heard MB as they didn't tour and were pretty much strictly an L.A. band in there early and great days (they didn't start touring until after their best days).

Well if we're going to go into music we listened to when we were 13 then let me just say that songs like "Bobby's Girl," and "Poetry in Motion," were one's I might have heard--heard possibly being too neutral a term as a description of my interest at the time. But time may have deranged my memories.

And why in heaven's name do you listen to that long Steve Miller track,    I forget the name, six times a year. I listened to it once after you wrote that and will find it rather difficult to listen to it again. Should I? Did I miss something?

Maybe the MBs were influenced by Love but they didn't know how to show it ?

**I mean before they produced their first particularly memorable songs on Da Capo.
-Chris