XXHighEnd

I'm currently having a big row with Dell :aggressive: :aggressive:.

They uploaded the updated drivers for the soundcard, but no better, and now they tell me the soundcard in my new Inspiron 6400 PC is not specified to cover the sampling frequencies I want (up to 192Khz). Apparently it only works over the range 40Hz to 15Khz!!!!

I have asked how it is then that it can play a CD at 44.1Khz. The Chap in India didn't know.

Once I mentioned that I am using an external sound card they were only too quick to blame that, so they can dismiss my problems. :evil: :evil:

I have now asked to speak to someone who can understand my problem and can sort it out. Nobody has yet suggested upgrading the motherboard drivers. :(

Hi Chris,

Your soundcard has nothing to do with your problem and if it does interfere somehow and you do not need it for something else then why do not uninstall the drivers for it or just turn it off?

You'll need properly working chipset drivers for the mobo itself, not for the soundcard...

Bert

OK for any other readers that might be having glitches or drop-outs using Vista OS here are some suggested cures from trawling the Web and talking to others. I have tried them all and none work for me.

1. Disable wired and wireless connections

2. Disable the enhancement in the Control panel-> Sound-> Speaker Properties->Enhancements->Disable all Enhancements.

3. In Media Player, click the down arrow under Now Playing and go to Enhancements. Click on Crossfading and Auto Volume Leveling. At the bottom of the Media Player, you should see that Crossfading and Auto Volume Leveling adjustments are showing. Make sure that Crossfading is off and Auto Volume Leveling is off.

4. In windows Media Player, hit ALT and go to TOOLS and the OPTIONS. Go to the Performance tab and under Network Buffering choose Buffer and change it to 1 second of content.

5. Set power management to High Performance.

6. Disable internal sound card completely.

I'm yet to update drivers on the motherboard (waiting for Dell to help do this)

Good luck.

Incidentally Daniel Fuchs at RME in Germany is continuing to be very helpful in resolving this issue :good:. Dell unfortunately are just too keen to point the finger at other peoples software/hardware.  :aggressive:

Hi Chris,

I am not sure if it is Vista doing this...I have had glitches too before updating chipset drivers on both Vista and XP (dual boot on the same PC). I did change other things too so I am not sure what cured it...

Perhaps it helps to set the priority to background services...

Its a bit deep down but try to locate it starting in the configuration panel, double click on system, double click on Advanced Settings, double click on Performance, double click on advanced and then select Background Services.

All is translated from Dutch though and each next option described above is found when the new window is open...

If you can't find it then I will make a screen dump of the open menu's and post these here..

Bert

Thanks for moving this Peter, I was becoming more self conscious it was in the wrong place :good:

Dell rang back, and between us we:
1. Installed latest system software
2. Installed latest BIOS settings
3. Installed latest chipset software (at last)

Bottom line is - no improvements in glitches :(

Still a few things to try :ok:

Okay (not yet :() ... try to read this carefully, and keep it in mind forever :

One of the objectives I had at creating XXHighEnd, is thet we (you) should not have to deal with stupid OS settings, shutting down services, changing priorities outside of XX, and all the stuff you actually want to know about. And-they-do-not-disturb.

I told more often, that my XP Audio machine has many interfaces connected to it (like controlling the heating and that kind of stuff), and it's even a webserver, continuesly connected to the internet, people probably browsing pages on it. Right.
Besides that, the PC is just used during playing audio for this typing, or browsing the internet myself. I don't care. Because the player doesn't care.

With Vista and #3 it's even more explicit, because there is no way I can tear the audio down by, say, 10 tasks at the same time of bulk copying files, ripping CDs or DVDs, name it. It just can't be influenced. Well, not that I could prove. Not for glitches, and not for quality.

But coincidentally, here's Bert's experience ...
He indeed had this (seemingly) same problem, and *he* had to be careful even not to drag tracks onto XX, because there would be a glitch. So this is what you have to keep in mind : In the case of Bert, priority settings would help, and not touching the PC would help, hence shutting down services and other stupid stuff theoretically would help. BUT IT IS NOT THE SOLUTION !
And the most dangerous part of it is, that I could show you the skipping (glitching) of 1 out od 10 samples, and you wouldn't even hear that. Not at first sight ...

So what most probably happens in your system, is apart from the major glitches (which would be about several hundreds of samples being skipped (do the math ... there should 44,100 per second)), there very well can be the skipping of a small amount of samples you don't hear, but which surely *does* influence the overall sound.

In the end what I say is : just do NOT try to fix this by shutting down interrupting things. You won't hear the small interrupts which maybe are still there, and it just degrades the playback !!
So finding the real cause is the only solution.

Peter

As they say in all the best cliches:

"A good point and very well presented"

I suppose its about a cure rather than a sticking plaster.

Thanks for the reminder. :good:

Cheers Chris

Then ...

When all your drivers are current, there's a fair change you can solve things by means of the PCI Latency tool (http://forum.bd-design.nl/forum_entry.php?id=11302&page=0&category=0&order=last_answer). The link in there guides you to the product itself.

Additionally you might want to read this : http://www.theatertek.com/forums/showthread.php?p=58821

What I say in the first referred to post, may be the most convenient for you.

Hi Peter
Do you know if this software operates on Vista. I dowloaded it to my desktop PC running XP professional as a test case.
It does the diagnostics and changes very simply - interesting to see how much PCI time the video bits steal, making the audio a poor relation.

But an initial trial on my Vista PC gave difficulties "failed to initialise configuration space access" hence my question.

I have a sneaking feeling this could be the solution to my problems :clapping:

Cheers Chris

No Chris, I'm sorry, I don't know.

Google ?
Other similar tools ?

While the search for Vista PCI latency software goes on, I have tried Bert's "background services" recommendation and will give it a listen later tonight.

Two people, who's views I respect have suggested using an ExpressCard firewire card in place of the standard firewire in the laptop. Funnily, I remember you writing a little while ago that using a firewire card helped the sound.

I am awaiting an explanation from each of them as to why this may eradicate glitches. Till then, does anyone have an opinion on whether this might correct the fault? ;)

Hi Chris,

I had used a firewire card at first, with hickups....later with the updates the hicks dissapeared. Later I changed the MB (it died) for a similar one without hickups but using the lastest drivers. After another change for a new MB (now with Firewire on board) and still no hickups but added a separate Firewire card (800) for using it with my Firewire 800 backup discs still no hicups but somehow the sound was better...?

The old Dell laptop had a firewire on board, never had a problem with it...

How's the background service doing?

Bert

Sorry to report that if anything this has made the glitches worse :(

Here is what I have been told so far about the Expresscard

Onboard controllers (for anything) are usually second-class citizens to whatever is in the ExpressCard slot (or PCMCIA on an old-fashioned laptop). Also I think the ExpressCard slot is bus master by default.

This means little to me but might be a cure (said he, clutching at the last few straws remaining)

Not that I yet know what to do with it, but if you play the internal speakers ... is that glitch free ?

Yes the internal speakers are glitch free. :yes:
The Fireface 400 with engine 1 and 2 are glitch free using my old XP Toshiba with built in firewire. :yes:

All problems started with the new Dell and Vista :grazy:

Today, I go back to basics and will reload the firmware and software for the Fireface and also all updated drivers and Bios and software for the Dell. Although all are showing the right version, I have had corrupted versions before. :dntknw:

Bert
I am about to have a blow up with Dell, :aggressive: they are blaming 'foreign' software and (for them) unrecognised external sound cards. This is obviously the easy option for them, and a good get out clause.

I will claim the PC they sold me is not fit for the purpose. It would be extremely useful if I could demonstrate that other Dell laptops they have sold are working glitch free with this combination and with the Vista OS.

When you have a moment could you e mail me, or post here, the model number etc of your Vista Dell laptop.

Thanks a bunch

Chris
 

Hey Chris,

First off, your intentional :yes: blowup with Dell most probably is not going to help you. However, it *does* help you when you know IN ADVANCE what the solution is (e.g. by means of another model) hence you can point out the culprit. It just works like that.
Note that often things are so complicated that there is no way to point out the guilty instance.

Then, if your internal speakers play glitch free (on the Dell, any version), I'd say you have to look in the direction of the Firewire stuff.
Now, this is by itself a not so easy solveable thing, because there's nothing to solve; Explicit drivers from the brand you use for Firewire do not exist, so there's nothing to upgrade there. However, otoh hand it's virtually more easy, just because it should work (by the drivers MS provides).
But ...

IMO this leads to (or may lead to anyway) the Firewire PC card not being okay. For that matter, there are a few things you can check :

1.
In the Fireface Mixer (the green icon) under Options, there's "ASIO direct monitoring". UNcheck that.
Does it help ?

2.
When things are unstable in the area of Firewire, you probably can notice this by comparing with the Mixer on-screen, and the Mixer not on-screen. When you do not have it on the screen, it should be better, or even just okay.
Does it help ?

3.
Lastly, when things are not okay, the Mixer might already tell you, because it doesn't refresh the volume bars quikly enough. So they stutter.
Do they ?


Even if nothing comes from the above, I would go out and buy an new Firewire card of a complete other brand, to save myself further troubles. What comes from this is
- or it doesn't help a bit (and changes NOTHING ... mind that !) which makes you conclude the culprit must be somewhere else afterall (which would be withgoing with the above 1,2,3 didn't help;
- or it helps and you're done.

HTH

Just a bit of an update for those that are still awake through this saga :)

There are a few things you can check :

1.
In the Fireface Mixer (the green icon) under Options, there's "ASIO direct monitoring". UNcheck that.
Does it help ?
Doesn't help

2.
When things are unstable in the area of Firewire, you probably can notice this by comparing with the Mixer on-screen, and the Mixer not on-screen. When you do not have it on the screen, it should be better, or even just okay.
Does it help ?
No difference whether on screen or not

3.
Lastly, when things are not okay, the Mixer might already tell you, because it doesn't refresh the volume bars quickly enough. So they stutter.
Do they ?
Watched through many glitches but cant see any discernible effect on the volume bars  

Have ordered Expresscard - Firewire adaptor, which should be here early next week. A good by-product of all this, is that I am learning plenty of things about how computers work ;)

Which tells at least that somewhere further down the line things go wrong. Note though, that IMO the volume bars derive their data from the Fireface itself, although I must say that I don't know whether the Direct Asio Monitoring is needed for that (to be On this time). So maybe re-check that (so, with On).

*If* I am right that the data comes from the Fireface, it would go wrong even *after* the Fireface. How ? ... towards your DAC ?
For that matter, I think you should check whether Analogue Out from the Fireface gives you the glitches as well ...

Uhohh ...

I've been doing some more tests that might help diagnose this. I have to say before diving in, that XX and Windows Media Player behave very similarly concerning glitches, except XX sounds fantastic, by comparison.

OK
Using my XP laptop, engine 2 doubled, playing (16bit,44.1Khz) via firewire into Fireface at 128 samples and then Tact, there are no glitches. In all the time I was playing music, it only missed a beat once when I was stressing the PC on the Internet at the same time.

Using my new Vista laptop, as stand alone, with Windows Media Player (WMP) on internal speakers there were no glitches at either 44.1 or 192KHz

Using the Vista laptop, with WMP via firewire into Fireface at 128 samples and then Tact, there were a few glitches at 44.1KHz which could be 'damped out' using 512 samples on the Fireface.
At 192KHz and 128 samples there were lots of glitches.

Cant really figure this out except, to this unskilled eye, it seems that the more demand I place on data transfer (44.1 tp 192kHz) the worse the glitches, and that these can be smoothed out a bit by damping down on the sampling rate of the Fireface.

Wait a minute ...

... Not that I told it, but at 192K the Fireface's buffers should be at 256 from theory, at least (88K2 -> 128 = (more than double the rate) 256).

Logic ? well, no. Not if you think (uhhm ... like I did) that the buffer in the Fireface is meant to CAPTURE the data from the PC. But what if this buffer is meant (also ?) for feeding the DAC ??

Otoh, I think you reported that with the Fireface at 1024 you also have glitches ... or ?

and

What if you just don't let upsample the TacT ?

Hi again Peter

Not that I told it, but at 192K the Fireface's buffers should be at 256 from theory, at least (88K2 -> 128 = (more than double the rate) 256).

Yes my plan initially is to run at 44.1K with the possibility of doubling with engine #3 to 88.2K. I dont routinely sit at 192K, but merely use it as a rapid way to judge the level of glitches (which are there, but far less common at 44.1K).
I have heard ticking if the buffer is too small. Can you also get drop-outs/glitches if the buffer is too small?
I routinely pick a buffer of 128 as Bert uses this without problem.

Logic ? well, no. Not if you think (uhhm ... like I did) that the buffer in the Fireface is meant to CAPTURE the data from the PC. But what if this buffer is meant (also ?) for feeding the DAC ??
Otoh, I think you reported that with the Fireface at 1024 you also have glitches ... or ?

Yes indeed when glitches are present, they persist all the way up to a buffer of 1024, but reducing somewhat as the buffer size increases.

What if you just don't let upsample the TacT ?

I have no control over the upsampling of the TacT, it automatically brings all digital inputs up to 192K so it can apply room correction.
What I will say, is that it displays the input frequency on the front screen whilst playing, and this display always faithfully mimics what has been selected downstream and never flickers during the glitches.

??

Hey Chris,

How is it going ? any progress / degress / superstress ?  :)

Hi Peter
Thanks for keeping in touch. Lots of effort but no progress yet. Heres a quick update.

1. Not able to try the analogue output from the FF400 as I dont have cables and plugs.
2. Not able to find a Vista version of PCI latency software (still looking)
3. I bought an Expresscard Firewire card but, despite being advertised as such, it did not work with Vista. Its gone back for a refund. There are very few of these cards on the market and one is promised later in the year I believe by RME.
4. I have been in touch with RME and they suggested adjusting the settings of the Multimedia Class Scheduler Service.  Under this Multimedia Class Scheduler Service you can register your application as a Pro
Audio application. This seemed too complicated for me so I have not tried yet.
5. I have posted on the TacT forum and am getting help there. It looks like there are no issues between compatibility of the FF400 and Tact 2.2XX though one person had noted one or 2 glitches from electrical stuff switching on in his house. He recommended trying a Toslink which I will do.
6. I am still in regular contact with Dell and with Berts help was able to supply the tag no. of a Dell computer that works just fine in Vista with a FF400. So they cant use the FF400 as an excuse!
7. I disabled everything I felt safe to do on the PC (soundcards, networks etc)
8. I have said my prayers before going to bed at night, and have been (relatively) well behaved with those nice people on AA. ;)

Here is a bit of advice I just received. It should help define the problem area.

> Are you hearing a click or a short duration mute?  When a digital
> input loses lock, a click is heard.  When a PC gets busy, it may
> mute for a fraction of a second. 

Sometimes a bit difficult to tell, particularly when the duration is very small, but almost certainly muting (drop outs).

> To trouble shoot you can listen to the FF400 via its headphone
> jack. That will tell you if the problem is upstream or downstream
> of the FF.

Finally, for every glitch, I get about a minutes worth of magic from engine#3 and its all worth it :good: :good: :good:

Here's a card of which the word goes that it works : http://www.supermediastore.com/ads-technologies-api-601-pyro-card-bus-1394-dv-for-notebooks.html#description

Gerner uses it into his Fireface400 from (I think) a Dell laptop running with Vista.

Which is almost true. My LT is a Thosiba with open exhaust pipes..he he

Gerner

Thank you Gerner. According to the above this shouldn't matter, but again all comes down to listening through the internal speakers or headphone;
If there are the glitches just the same, the other Firewire card isn't going to help.

So Chris ...



I actually don't see you explicitly answer (or respond to) on this one.

Do note : depending on your hearing capabilities, ind *if* you can hear slight glitches here too, you just might be listening to what Vista's "KMixer" makes form it. You *will* be listening through this KMixer this way, and we already know that for sound quality it isn't right. But personally I wasn't looking for glitches through headphones, so maybe they are just there.



Parallel in waiting for another Fireware PCcard, it might be useful at this monent to get a bunch of those in the picture below. Note you'd need the Mono version (this *is* important).
You can also buy a couple of leads doing the same. A pro audio shop (with pro synths and keyboards etc.) will most probably have them.
It will prove wether things go wrong after the Fireface or not. Thus, if with analogue out there are no glitches, it's the Fireface communication with the TacT.

Btw, those plugs are always very handy, just because you can do many things with the Fireface, but then you'd always need these.

Thanks Guys

According to Amazon, that ADS Technologies API-601 PYRO Card Bus 1394 DV for notebooks is discontinued in the UK - will keep up the search.

I haven't tried the FF400 headphones experiment yet as I sold my expensive Stennheiser headphones a little while ago on E-Bay having not used them for 6 years! Will go and buy some cheap phones now to check it out. I dont think I will miss these glitches if they are present  :veryhappy:

Have found the adaptors of which you spoke 1/4" (6.35mm) plug to phono socket mono in my Maplins catalogue, and will get some in.

Do note : depending on your hearing capabilities, ind *if* you can hear slight glitches here too, (in the Fireface 400 headphone socket) you just might be listening to what Vista's "KMixer" makes form it. You *will* be listening through this KMixer this way, and we already know that for sound quality it isn't right. But personally I wasn't looking for glitches through headphones, so maybe they are just there.

Can you explain this a bit more. I thought by the time the signal got to the Fireface it was well clear of any contibution from the PC and Vistas "KMixer"

Thanks again Chris

This is just presumptions :

In the "kernel" of any audio player, many many things can go wrong. In fact, it would be one of the major reasons why I started XX.
Now, since it is not so difficult to prove that Vista makes a mess of things at upsampling (Test track with distortion which isn't there...  (http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=88.0) currently we do not know what goes wrong more ...

Note that there are two kind of glitches as such (or as how we could address them) : the sound stopping for a very short while (actually a dropout) and the sound "sticking" for a while with the same sound (samples).

The latter is very easy to incur for if the programmer did something wrong.

Note though that you didn't listen through headphones yet, so you have been listening to the same as I do overhere. I didn't hear glitches through loudspeakers and Vista upsampling, so you did not either because of that (!!).

If it's not clear, it's not important I think.

Right, I've been shopping, but unfortunately have a party, Christening and dance on this weekend so there will not be much time to experiment :(

I bought headphones and the adaptors.

So far the headphones plugged in the FF400 also show the glitches, which I believe are drop outs. This is the only positive result so far. ;)

Cheers
Chris

I'm ready to do the experiment with the analogue out of the Fireface, but a couple of questions to make sure I dont screw up.

1. Do I just plug in any pair of outputs in the FF, say 1 and 2, to get stereo?

2. Has the signal from here already gone through the DAC in the Fireface and is ready to go straight into the  normal inputs of a pre-amp (with volume control).

Thanks Chris

1. Yep. But in the Fireface Mixer you have to enable those outputs, similar to SPDIF you did before.

2. Yep.

:)

Right, got music up and playing :good:

The FF is connected to an S&B transformer volume control then to my valve power amp.

The glitches are still there.

As the TacT (DAC) is no longer being used I think this confirms it has no part to play in the glitches.

The glitches can be heard in the headphones and analogue output of the FF 400, so does that now rule out the FF 400 itself as the source of problems?

Cheers Chris

PS The DAC in the Fireface 400 is really not very good :no:

Yes.
The question is though, whether your headphones are connected to an output from the PC itself (and not to the Fireface). If so, it's *also* not the Firewire.

?

I've only ever plugged the headphones in the FF400.

My intuition tells me its not the FF400

1. Drop outs are not a generic problem you get with this bit of kit. This is distinct from the effect you get when the buffer is set too small.

2. The FF plays perfectly when using XP on a Toshiba laptop computer (through its firewire connection.)

3. None of the FF settings have any significant effect on the drop outs. Some days going to maximum buffer of 1024 seems to help a bit, other days not.

The drop out problem seems firmly linked to my Dell computer and its ability to deliver a good firewire connection in Vista. This is where I will now focus my efforts. Unless you think otherwise.

Cheers Chris
 

I don't think otherwise, bot you would PROOVE the opposite if you'd plug in earphones into the Dell, and then it would be glitch free. So you really must do that !!

Emm didnt really understand the logic, but followed instructions.  ;)

I plugged the headphones in the PC and got no sound. To get it to play I had to enable the internal soundcard and select the internal speakers and headphones under audio settings - this of course disengaged the Fireface 400.

Now the head phones played without glitches.  But, I knew already that the internal soundcard played over internal speakers without glitches.

Have we learnt any more? :dntknw: :dntknw: :scratching: :scratching:

Cheers Chris

Not since I forgot about that :swoon:, although incurred from this :


and


of which I did not see the logic, although literally ("deliver") it would be correct.

But okay.
My conclusion would be it's the PC talking to firewire - or the PC-Firewire card. I'd opt fot the last (also because the route is more easy to check).

Hi Chris,

If you have a scoop, you can check some data streams

Marco

Thanks for the hint Marco (I take it you mean scope), but I belong to the select few that remain unskilled in the art of electronics and computing.

If you can see it and touch it then I can fix it, but unfortunately electrons are small and invisible :wacko:

Hi Chris,

Yes I did mean scope
Shame on you.......that you don't have one hahaha... ,no just kidding, we can not do all the same things

I read your post but can't help you, I have no FF and Firewire
the only thing is that I think that it is your laptop, Firewire, software, but I don't now....... I think it is, because you said it works fine on a Toshiba laptop
Computers are complex things, all the hardware and software must work in harmony, but the are many manufacturers and makers of chips, mother boards, software and so on

Maybe you look at the Dell website in the support page, I was there, and there are many patches
one of them looks very interesting

I copy paste this one:

As of June 1, 2007, a memory leak issue has been identified that affects all MediaDirect 3.0 systems, on both Windows XP and Vista. This results in memory consumption, affecting system performance even if MediaDirect is not used. A patch has been developed that resolves this issue and others. This affects nearly 100% of Dell Inspiron systems (except Inspiron 1501).

But.............. if that it is, I don't now       

Marco     

Chris,

When your'e playing with Engine#3, XXEngine3.exe will be visible in Taskmanager;
Suppose you give it high priority (rightclick on the process -> set priority), possibly even "Real Time", does that help you ?
I disabled setting the "thread" priority for #3, just because it shouldn't matter, but supposed it helps you ... I can enable it.

Peter

Hi Marco
Yes thanks, I did find a list of 57 updates for my computer a couple of weeks ago and downloaded every one :wacko:. Nothing helped :(

Hi Peter
Did as you suggested under Task Manager. The PC would only let me set Engine #3 as 'High', but as you predicted it made no difference - worth a try though :good:

While I was there I got in the spirit of things and I set many other things such as Google destop and McAffee security as 'Low'. Nothing made a difference to the drop outs.

Waiting on a phone call from Dell now :whistle: :whistle:

But you do have another Firewire card on order in the mean time ?

If I were you I'd got crazy ...  :wacko:
I'm really sorry for you Chris.

Well thats another story. I haven't yet found an Expresscard / firewire in the UK that is guaranteed to work with Vista.

The only one I found (advertised as Vista compatible) so far didn't work and is going back. Two other manufacturers say they might work , but couldn't guarantee it so its at my risk!

One question I haven't been able to get an answer to is, will a firewire 800 card (there seem to be more of them for Vista) operate OK on a firewire 400 system.

And yes, I am going a bit crazy  :wacko: :wacko: :wacko:

If they can't be plugged to a 400 connection ... no.

In this picture (backside) (http://www.rme-audio.com/english/firewire/ff800.htm) in the thrid sectrion you can roughly see the 1 800 and 2 400 conections. They are different.

I think a physical 800 ceonnection will pass through an actual 400 logical connection, but you'd have to solve the cabling conversion.

Thanks Peter

Think I've finally found what I want :clapping:
http://www.siig.com/product.asp?pid=1038 (http://www.siig.com/product.asp?pid=1038)

Right, Dell just phoned me.

Here is the plan we have agreed.

1. They will replace the entire motherboard (inc firewire stuff) on Thursday of this week.
2.  If this doesn't fix it, but the new Expresscard (that I will order) does fix it, then Dell will try for a full refund of the cost of the new Expresscard for me.
3. If neither works then the problem is to be elevated to the next level of support at Dell

I like a good plan :good: :good:

Now I think of it ...

Supports asynchronous and isochronous data transfer modes

It could very well be that your current card does not support this. Or better : if it doesn't, the result might be what you hear (just guessing, but it seems logic to me).

Edit : I meant the Isochronous; Asynchronous is normal.

Hi

Here is a new observation. :veryhappy:

I was sitting listening to music with the Fireface Settings box open. When the first drop-out occurred an Error message appeared in the normal empty space above the AutoSync box. It read Error 1.

At the next drop-out it changed to Error 2 etc. There were typically 3-5 errors per track.

When the track ended this error message reset and disappeared till the next drop out in the next track.

The Error messages are explained in the manual under Firewire Audio (37.3 in my manual) but its far too technical for me to understand.
Is this just making a record of what I  am hearing or is it a clue as to the source of the drop outs. :wtf:


PS
Here is their more technical info sheet:

http://www.rme-audio.com/english/techinfo/fwaudio_rme.htm (http://www.rme-audio.com/english/techinfo/fwaudio_rme.htm)

I have just read my way through it and here are the main conclusions they make.

1. Here is the prime candidate for drop-outs:
Loss of data due to overloads on and flawed performance of the PCI bus  

2. Here is their advice if you have this problem:
 When suffering from such effects, the best advice is to get a new computer. :cry:

I have written to Dell asking them why my new PC is not fit for the purpose :aggressive:

Such cables are for sale at most places...I am using my 3x 800 FireWire card with such a cable to connect it to the FireFace.

No problemo...

Bert

I have such errors when my samples are set too low..... If you change the sample rate in the FireFace settings window then you'll have to restart XX to have any effect. Perhaps you have it standard set to 128 samples and have restarted XX several times so that my post doesn't help but still...

Good luck and Dell seems to do well with their service, afterall...  ;)

Bert

Hi Bert

I've been running with the buffer set at 256 for a couple of weeks, so i dont think I'm pushing the limits. ;) ;)

Chris, you won't believe this, and I hope it is to your advantage somehow;

The last few days I was working on my "storage system", which is about RAID stuff and SATA. This is mainly about changing things in the BIOS, and from there on trying things get to work (which in my case hopelessly fails so far, but never mind that).

Yesterday, after 3 night of hobbying with this, I found that my Vista PC (where all this was occurring), suddenly had glitches ...

For several hours I was working on the solution to that (it worked for ages before, *and* I never experienced it anyway on either PC), until as some last resort I removed a driver which I shouldn't have ...
Many hours later of trying to get my system to rebooting again, I had to temporarily solve it by mounting another disk with the Vista OS on it (from another PC), and right away the glitches were gone again.


At having the glitches this was always in parallel with the disk lamp coming up, and in fact I couldn't touch anything on the PC or I had one (including an additional error in the Fireface data).
The things I had been doing the pas few days (without playing music from that machine) was related to installing motherboard Raid and disk drivers I hadn't installed before (so before it used generic/general drivers) in various versions including those who didn't work at all (like XP drivers which were just accepted, but did not do their job). Besides that I have been changing the BIOS all over the place, but which was all set back (and even reset to a before default) in the end. All to no avail.

I hope this helps you somewhere. :yes:
Peter

Hi Peter

I would like to think it was something I had done wrong in the drivers/software/Bios domains but my machine glitched from brand new out the box.

The Dell engineer just spent 90 minutes installing a new mobo, only to find a hard disk error which indicated the new board was 'Dead On Arrival'. Just my luck :shout: :shout: :shout:.

He will be back tomorrow with another new one.  :yahoo: :yahoo:

:swoon:

Yeah, that was a long night! Glad to be of help...  :(

I do hope that all is working as before (except for the glitches!).

Bedtime...

Bert

Further update:

The man from Dell has just been to replace the mobo again. This time the PC fired up OK and we connected it to the Hi-Fi.

The drop-outs are still there. :sad: :sad:

The Dell man left, I waved him goodbye and returned to find the PC had turned itself off.
Any attempt to restart it, results in 3 flickering lights, but no action on the screen which is blank. After one minute it turns itself off again.

I think I will go for a lie down in a darkened room. :grazy: :grazy: :grazy: :grazy: :grazy:

Oh man ... :(

Well, I just finished an email to the Internet company that delivered my SATAII (6 piece) hot swap disk tower. After months and a couple of 100 hours of trying, I came to the conclusion the thing flaws. I asked the company politely to refund my money ...
That's btw why I never started something myself in the "Music Storage" board, because I thought to have this theoretical nice solution to have working a long time ago. This is also why in a last attempt (day before yesterday) I started to have glitches, which by itself caused that my development PC has to be setup all over again, which ... COMPUTERS !!

Are we all sure this is the way to go ? :blob8:

... but since this morning I have my 2x 1TB (1TB storage, 1TB backup) working in another way, expandable to 2 x 2TB without troubles (and to 2 x 3TB with some relatively more money, but still without troubles).

Well if XX wasn't the best sound I had heard from my system, I might have to agree with you ;) ;)

Dell have agreed to replace my computer with a completely new one, but I have said that I dont want the same model again if it has got sound issues through firewire.
They assured me it would not, but as this is the first instance they have heard of this, and since they dont know the cause, how can they give me that assurance?
They have gone away to think about it :fool: :fool: :fool: :fool:

'Negotiations' with Dell are now concluded.:aggressive: :aggressive: I have to say they have been very helpful. :yes: :yes:

They have agreed a new replacement with:
1. Hard drive upgraded from 80 to 120 GB
2. RAM speed upgraded from 533 to 667 MHz
3. Faster, better processor 1.73 to 1.86 GHz
4. Vista Premium upgraded to Vista Ultimate.
About £200 worth for free. Pretty good if it works.

I'm off on hols for a couple of weeks soon, so it should be ready when I get back. :ok: :ok:

Hi Peter

I'm back from my hols and ready to get stuck in again. :grin:

My replacement Dell computer was sitting on my doorstep. Have installed all softwares and drivers and am ready to give it a full test drive.

BUT, my activation code was for my other PC which is dead as dead can be. I have tried the code on the new PC but I guess I wouldn't have expected it to work.

What do I do now? :dntknw: :dntknw:

Thanks Chris

Test your glitches !!

Uhhmm ... I'll workout something. Must go now though. I hope you can wait till tomorrow ...

Hi Chris
If I understood correctly when reading about retaining activation....
Once you have activated XXHighEnd, you should then save the entire XXHighEnd program to another place and retain it.
If your machine/HardDrives crash or break, you then pull out your saved copied of XXHighEnd that was undemoed and start with it, then copy the lastest version (or the version you want to use) directly over your now installed XXHighEnd folder that was undemoed.  Do I understand this right?  (paranoia strikes deep for me, so I've got my original undemoed XXHighEnd saved on two different HardDrives and a cdr hehehe)  I don't think it matters what machine you pull it to.  I activated XXHighEnd on my Front End and then copied the whole XXHighEnd folder to another completely different machine in the house and it works on both. 
Do you have your original XXHighEnd undemoed player somewhere else (cdr/another HD)?  Peter, does entering in your activation code again in a new demo version of XXHighEnd work?

This is a lesson learnt in terms of back up, but the computer was so new this was just about the only thing that was on there.
The last thing I expected was for it to suffer a terminal illness in the loving arms of a Dell engineer :no:

Well the good news is the glitches are about an order of magnitude better. I now get about 1 glitch every 4 tracks instead of 4 glitches per track. :)

256 is the safest Fireface latency I can work at without things going a bit pear shaped - at one time I had the blue screen of death, after which glitches were worse than ever until I turned off and on again.

I still have most of the earlier fixes to apply, such as updating all the Dell mobo drivers etc, so am optimistic things will be OK. :good:

Just an update.

The problem with glitches (drop outs) has never really gone way. At 48 samples on the Fireface 400 I get a recorded error about every 15-20 seconds (random) and at higher positions the rate of glitches gradually decreases. So I set the Fireface to 256 samples and all is well, though SQ may be compromised a bit.

A couple of days ago I got the Expresscard firewire plug-in card to see if this will improve communication between the laptop and the Fireface.
Well the SQ improved a bit when switching to the Expresscard, but the rate of glitches is unchanged.

So I continue to run at 256 samples and continue to seek out the holy grail that will allow running at 48.

I have been reading Gerards thread (though he had different issues to me - clicks and distortions) and tried putting XXHighend on the same hard drive as my music is stored, but it made no difference to the glitches.  :(

On the positive side version q is wonderful :goodjob:

Hi Chris,

Since you reported (here (http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=219.msg1571#msg1571)) that offloading your Dell with some tasks helped, I Googled a bit, and you might get it much better when you offload all the unnecessary sh*t the Inspiron loads in the beginning. However ... it will not be you being able to do that ... (there are no official options for it).

Then, when you know how to Google for it ... many people have the same problem as you have, although often it is hard to judge because people report similar for the Sigmatel sound chip which is in there but ... which IMO is not used in your case.
Anyway, the solutions vary so much, that I personlly would give up in advance. But that's me ...

Might you Google yourself, note that the e1505 is the same as the Inspiron 6400.

Anyway, if you are really sure that offloading helps, go to a shop and let them eliminate all the unneeded stuff at startup.
One thing you can do yourself for trials :
If you go to Taskmanager - Processes, there (supposedly) will be a sqsvr (or something like that which starts with sq) process. If it is there indeed, kill it.
Note that at a reboot it will be back.
If it helps I'll tell you how to permanently shut it off.
It incurs for much harddisk I/O at regular intervals (60 seconds after the PC has hybernated once), and if these kind of things (offloading) help you, this will help too.

Whether this all is the right path to go ... I don't know. All of this should not bother in the first place ... but what to do ... :swoon:

Peter

Thanks Peter,

I really do appreciate your continued help in this, even though it is not an XX Highend problem.

Not being that gifted with computers I have to look at this simplistically. The underlying problem from what I have read is that some computers treat sound as a 'second class citizen' and its priority in the processors etc falls well behind video etc.

You did refer earlier to a PCI latency tool, which adjusts the internal relationship between sound and video. Unfortunately I have not found software for Vista yet.
http://www.theatertek.com/forums/showthread.php?p=58821

I will continue to turn off bits that aren't needed (with extreme care) and eventually I will find a configuration that does not distract the sound.

Meantime listening on a latency of 128 is not too bad  :good: :good: :good:

For those that were here early days this is the conclusion of a long running saga to remove glitches from my brand new audio dedicated Dell Vista computer bought in June 2007.

Service Pack 1 has been released for some time but was not until recently compatible with my computer which I guess had very early versions of Vista drivers.

A couple of weeks ago my computer informed me it was ready to take SP1, which I downloaded and YESSSSSSSSSS!!

I can now run the DPC latency checker and almost every reading falls into the green values. The read-out now says "This machine should be able to handle real time streaming of audio without drop outs" and its right.

As a consequence the Fireface can now be set on the smallest latency.

Everything comes to he who waits  -------- eventually.

Isn't that great !

I just checked mine (on SP1 since yesterday) and although I have more low green bars compared to before, there's still the "standard 1000 us" in there somewhere.
Luckily it doesn't bother me for the buffer size !

Anyway, great Chris !
Peter

hiyall
For fun (??what the heck does sev think is fun??) I read through this thread.  The whole time I was reading I kept shouting out.  "Go buy a clean copy of Windows Vista (100 US here), format your HDD and reinstall Vista". ... well then also follow Peter's guide to tweak/shut off services; course I'm not sure the guide was around back then, but,,,  I mean really, I've never entered a PW on install of windows, always shut off UAC, defender, firewall (always put yourself behind a hardware firewall, not software), disable as many services as you can think of....I think this might have solved your issues much earlier.  Laptop manufacturers are infamous for slipping in cr*p (antivirus stuff which is just as bad as malware) on their Windows install; better to get your own Vista OEM/builders copy.

For 44.1 I run at 48 samples on the FF800 always...I shut off mixer and settings when not using too.  Last night I turned on settings to run 128 samples to listen to 24/96 stuff.

On this new machine I built, I never go above 63 us and shows a constant 59 us with DPC latency checker...some of those idiots using cplay with xp claim ~5 us ... hmmm not sure what I could do to get down there with Vista, but I've never experienced a glitch. Edit: Just for fun I ran DPC on my xp machine which is fairly loaded with cr*p, (semi optimised when first built and Superantispyware [a good one to use occationally] cleans it) and it runs around 25 us with no programs running.... go figure.

So glad this long process seems over for you; but I'd still recommend doing a clean install of Vista if dell has any of their stuff running on there, or shutting off extraneous programs.  ps. At this point you probably don't even want to touch/change anything in your computer heh... it works YEA!

Thanks Sev. I wish I was gifted in the art and could wipe my hard drive and reload fresh Vista, but on past form I would end up with a dead computer :(

I have turned off a few drivers, and will look at eradicating unwanted (Dell) programs. A question on this. Can I stop programs running or do I have to remove them from the PC.

I will also shut off UAC (whatever that is!) and have a look at defender.

I did start the Peter tweaks, but got lost in the foreign language (to me) illustrations.

BTW what does PW mean?   "I've never entered a PW on install of windows"

Hey Chris,

Regarding the things I can answer :

UAC can be found at Startbutton, Control Panel, User Accounts, Turn User Account Control (UAC !) on or off.
But you probably have done that long time ago because I created a topic about it back then.

Whether you have to remove programs from the PC depends on how persistent they are at restarting themselves at a next reboot. No general guidelines here, because it depends on the programs themselves. Especially laptops are prone to have lots of unnecessary stuff.

Btw, I would never go the route of installing a fresh Vista (if I were you) because each manufacturer adds his own propriatary drivers and things, and again with laptops this is excessive. This means that after such a fresh install (of a general Vista version ! -> otherwise it makes no sense in the firts place) you won't even have (e.g.) network access (propriatary ethernet driver is lacking) and you really have to be inventive to get all things, piece by piece, going. Note that everything will be downloadable from the internet, but *what* to download takes some experience (or name it skills). A good option would be to know in advance what you will need, which in the end may come down to saving the stuff concerned, in order to reload that as the first thing when something is running.
But :nea: better don't do it !

On the "Peter tweaks" :) ... since I have the english version running now, I will redo the pictures in English. Ehh, sometime when I can find some spare time.

Be careful with "super anti spyware" and such, because ususally they work counterproductive (generate I/O's, stall the system). Besides that, you'll only know once you bought them and it makes hardly sense to listen to others because most people just can't judge it. I'd dare say though that if someone in here has an advise on this, it should be trustworthy.

Peter

UAC can be found at Startbutton, Control Panel, User Accounts, Turn User Account Control (UAC !) on or off.
But you probably have done that long time ago because I created a topic about it back then.

I think I went for the option of 'run as administrator', but I will check.

Whether you have to remove programs from the PC depends on how persistent they are at restarting themselves at a next reboot. No general guidelines here, because it depends on the programs themselves. Especially laptops are prone to have lots of unnecessary stuff.

If I uninstall a program and it turns out to be critical, I need a contingency. Is it possible to first transfer a copy of a program to an external hard drive for possible recovery if required.

Btw, I would never go the route of installing a fresh Vista (if I were you) because each manufacturer adds his own propriatary drivers and things, and again with laptops this is excessive. This means that after such a fresh install (of a general Vista version ! -> otherwise it makes no sense in the firts place) you won't even have (e.g.) network access (propriatary ethernet driver is lacking) and you really have to be inventive to get all things, piece by piece, going. Note that everything will be downloadable from the internet, but *what* to download takes some experience (or name it skills). A good option would be to know in advance what you will need, which in the end may come down to saving the stuff concerned, in order to reload that as the first thing when something is running.
But  better don't do it !

Dont worry, I wont. I think you need to be a real expert like some of the guys on here :good:

On the "Peter tweaks"  ... since I have the english version running now, I will redo the pictures in English. Ehh, sometime when I can find some spare time.

That would be excellent. Thanks :ok: :ok:

Be careful with "super anti spyware" and such, because ususally they work counterproductive (generate I/O's, stall the system). Besides that, you'll only know once you bought them and it makes hardly sense to listen to others because most people just can't judge it. I'd dare say though that if someone in here has an advise on this, it should be trustworthy.

Computer came with McAfee software which seems OK. I only use this Dell computer to download XXHighend and for very secure bank/building society transactions, so it doesn't come under a lot of threat.

If you are satisfied with that, it is as good. But generally it is more hustle, especially when you need more programs to behave the same (say, like what is needed for XXHighEnd).


Usually when you are as far as being able to uninstall the particular software, you'll know where it is on disk either and what starts it up.
It is suffcient to rename the program, or, say, all the EXEs in there (you could rename them to EXXs).
I'm not talking about the software which lists under "software" (via Control Panel), and I'm not even sure whether you will be able in an easy fashion to locate it (needed for copying or the renaming again for that matter).

Please note that when software is removed the unofficial way (like the renaming would incur for) you may receive errors (e.g. after booting) of other parts of software addressing the "removed" software. Don't be afraid of this, and or set the program back (rename back) or try to localize the software which addresses the now removed software and remove *that*. The latter is the better solution ofbviously, for software which you don't want in the first place. But keep in mind the possibility that you will be able to track all down to a certain extend, which leaves you with the errors (could be one or two after a boot) or you have to revert the removal of the whole chain.
In any case, administer what you are doing, which makes reverting -if necessary- easy.

Peter