XXHighEnd

Hi Peter and everyone,

I just got back listening to music after moving to a new house, and I fired up my old dedicated PC, which now is pretty old (see signature) but works like new since the OS has run always offline. It has w7 home 32bit (the cpu is not 64bit unfortunately) 4GB of ram and the original optimizations. Xxhe 0.9-4.1 sounds BETTER than the newer versions probably because the CPU isn't much powerful.
I have just upgraded the USB interface of my DAC with the singxer f1 which is isolated (limited to 384k but oh well.). At the moment I cannot afford other upgrades since I have still to do more renovations.

But I want to try windows10 since I have a spare 128GB SSD removed from my work PC... which build should I put on? I would shoot for the creator's update like I use on my work PC (build 16299) but nobody seems to use it yet.
It will be offline for now, so no issue with updates and such. and I do have a license for a Home edition.
I can download any iso and hopefully a usb installation will work.

Other random questions:
1) which is this Silverstone usb card I read in some posts? My pc doesnt have a lineas psu yet, but the DAC usb is isolated: should I get one? Or another pci-e usb card maybe.

2) I'm gonna roll some usb cables and I'm also building one without 5V and a special ground setting, which I will share if it works.

3) I want to use my android tablet as remote/screen/controller for it, MS RPC is the best app available? and also it requires the PC to be connected to my LAN? I have an ethernet port close to it for this eventuality. No wifi onboard but a card could be added if better.

Also, I will be upgrading it with a manycore 64 bit cpu later this year. What are your thoughts about AMD epyc (32 cores)? I do need a mATX or even better ITX motherboard to save space inside the case (which I'm NOT changing).

So Telstar, that is a lot of questions. Let's see;

First off, XXHighEnd still runs under the 32bits OS. However, some feautures may not work because too complicated to make twice. IIRC, preventing the system from automatically upgrading is one of them. There could be more. All I do is fire up XXHighEnd on a 32 bits (W7) machine - and don't use it for playback.


If your CPU really supports 32 bits only, then you are in bad luck. W10 only comes in 64bits versions (although I recall that at very first it was (could be) also 32 bits - like the Consumer Preview).


Bad luck again, because RDC is not suported on Home. OK, only 3 weeks back I managed to tweak a Home OS to accept it after all.
Anyway, yes, I think we all will agree about MS RD program which is available for Windows itself, OSX, IOS and Android.


Yes. But Internet can be avoided.


See the other topic you posted in, and my response about it.


They all do. But if your cpu is 32 bits only, they all won't.


Let's say that this is outdated, definitely per W10 14393.0. But, not by 100% guarantee because most who actively used and reported, use the NOS1 DAC. Today I think we all use the USB3 port and this too is dangerous to advise because now again many use the same mobo (like ASRock X79 or X99M uATX).

Notice that you will need (from the top of my head) XXHighEnd 2.01 for W10 suport. And depending on the W10 Build, later versions (but of course using the current 2.09 does the job).


Maybe you know that we supply an audio-dedicated PC (Stealth Mach II LPS). It can very well be that this ends up in there, when the current X99M runs EOL. But, chances are I think higher that it won't happen, because that processor is not "cold". But I suppose I will try anyway. Notice that this is all in the context of 40 core Xeons (hyperthreded) which also run in that PC without overheating. And the "standard" 20 core is cheaper - at least the last time I looked.
Summarised, I will try it, but don't give it a big chance.


Unless things will be changed (or already have been), ITX is NOT good. This is for reasons of the power supply and how it is implemented and the parallel memory leans (two instead of four). uATX is fine, as long as a decent MoBo exists, and this historically not has always been the case (but wait a year and it's back again for the latest chipset etc).

:heat:
Peter

Hi Peter,

TYVM for the reply.

Looks like I was wrong! and my CPU is 64 bit:
https://ark.intel.com/products/35300/Intel-Pentium-Processor-E5300-2M-Cache-2_60-GHz-800-MHz-FSB
I dont know why I thought it wasn't. The low frequency I think helps with the overall good sound I was always getting from this machine.

Anyway, last night I went ahead and got the 32bit image of build 14393, and installed offline from usb (too old mainboards do not support that, but gladly mine does). My concern was lack of driver. Instead, everything works. I just had to fiddle to manually install intel gfx.

Note: W10 has indeed 32 bit versions but 2016 server (which I also wanted to try has not).

I have to verify about RDC because I would prefer to not buy another license. This is the first thing I have to do before getting a new image 64bit and install it. ha :)
Second thing is to verify if xxhigend 2.09 isn't too much a resource hog for this computer.

I do not have a usb3 port on this mainboard, so I think I will get a pci-e usb3 card: is any chipset preferred (Renesas or? Intel afaik doesn't make second market usb cards)

I downloaded the latest xxhe version 2.09 and plan to go straight with it. I think I will have to pm or mail you for activation code, as I have read.

Thanks also for the heads up about future mainboards and processors. 40 cores xeons are way too expensive for what they offers wrt 24 cores ones IMO.
I'm aware of the Stealth PC you offer but I prefer to build things myself, and keep my case, but if possible I may want to buy the mainboard and LPS from you. Looking at the inside pictures it shoudl fit. We will talk about this later this year.

Looks like i got the right image now (and a bigger usb key for the install).
Pro will be, no headaches from getting RDC to work and easier to stop updates (this may regard how xxhe handles that too).

Looking good ... :)

(I'm posting this here instead of opening a new topic, hope it's ok)
I haven't had the time to redo the w10 install with the 64bit one and do optimizations on it yet, but...

Googling around I found out that my mainboard (which I like very much, have I said that? ;) ) supports newer cpus up to 4C/8T core duo or xeons, also with 12MB total cache. Same TDP or a bit higher that should be fine once downclocked.
Would such an upgrade be worth? Note that prices of these old cpu are around 50€ so it's quite trivial.

Does xxhe uses threads or only cores matter? Still, going from 2 to 4 is a noticeable benefit or I just save my time and wait to replace all with a 20+ core cpu later?

Telstar - both and all over.
The more cores the better the sound will be.
For 50 euros I would give it a go as long as the real $ stays out somewhat.

Go for it ...
Peter

Thanks. I think I will, as I have found a 65W part for 55$.

I do remember that going from dual to quad core was a big improvement for normal usage/multitasking. I can only guess it will be the same for music playback.
The additional cache may help it too.

W10 (re)installation, optimization went smooth, and also xxhe 2.09 (which required the cr*ppy .net 3.5).

Next thing is the usb3 card. Then I can start listening.

Well done !


Don't be disappointed when it appeard you are in demo mode. Because of course you are now. Being activated not only allows Minimized OS but also the Processor Core Appointment, which could be crucial for you. And what is new for you, are the Q3,4,5 settings which when all set to 1, imply the best possible SQ (methinks), but this can only work in Minimized OS (normal OS is too slow for this) plus when low on processor core count it is a bit of a search which Core Appointment Setting does the job.

If you can't control the system anywhere any more (no mouse moving or anything) BUT the sound keeps on happily playing (until the end of the playlist ;)) you'll know you arrived at the wrong setting.
Haha. Chance that this happens is not big, but it does exist.

Regards,
Peter

Oh, yes, what do I need to send you for activation? Can we do it offline?


I'll experiment with everything in time. I have years to catch up ;)
I need to keep my usb mouse/keyboard working for the moment.
I'm still doing everything without lan cable attached. When it's the time to try RDC, i'll study how to connect to my lan only. I dont think will be easy, so I'm posponing it after critical listening in the old setup & usb3 first.

Yep, still possible as always. It is only that I need to be there to apply the procedure manually.

Peter

Noname usb3 card with renesas chipset installed.
Belkin usb2 highspeed standard cable plugged and ready to transmit all the cr*p in the world  :(
Listening tests after weekend :)

:)

After the very first comparisons, I can say with a certain sureness that I'm not going back to windows7 ever.
That drive will soon be wiped and removed from the PC.

Aside, I'll order a Lush cable soon.

Strangely rough sounding eh ?
Flakey bass.
Etc. what I forgot by now.

Strange bass yes, detached from the rest.
Overall sound is not too bad, though, z-4.1 was the very best on windows7.

And the usb3 card sounds better than the mainboard (which I think is shared with keyboard and mouse... yes still haven't switched to remote desktop... need to finish the OS swapping) but the cable is a plain belkin one.

And 2.09 is still in demo mode, it can only get better when I tweak it.

Allright, RDC works after the typical MS bullsh*t I had to overcome.

But xxhe 2.09 is VERY buggy, more than when used locally.
It basically cannot play more than 1-2 tracks (attended), then the next one just doesn't start. Stop and play doesn't fix it, I have to shut down and launch xxhe again. Extremely annoying.

On top of this I get occasionally these errors:
-"out of" popups (the last word is truncated)
-engine 1 and 2 are obsolete.... (I'm using engine4)
- some other error I dont remember.

Still, I think it sounds a little better with monitor powered off. I'll update after I activate the software and play with the more advanced settings. Then i'll post any actual error in the other section.

Telstar,

There is nothing buggy, let alone very buggy. But you have too few memory or imply settings that eat it. Remember, the SFS.

Outside of that, I don't think many people will use Windows 10 on an older (to very older) machine, so maybe we don't even know the implications of that. What I recall is that 4GB is the very minimum, but this is from x years back and possibly Vista or even XP.

When you are out of memory, anything can happen, and it *will* per definition look super buggy because of all the random errors occurring because of it.

So how much memory do you have in there ?

Peter

I have 4GB of ram. Maybe doubling it to 8GB is a better upgrade than a CPU with 4c/8t?
I'll open task manager and see what's going on. I think I have to disable sleep mode for the local HDD where the music is stored - the default windows setting is nuts.

Since it's still in demo mode, which settings are memory hogs? SFS is mixed (cannot be changed) at 14MB max 150 (defaults). I was using mixed contiguous in the old version on w7.
I'd like it to work better, where I can at least play a full album without interruptions or errors before paying for it. I'm sure you understand my frustration.

TBH if that doesn't cut it, i'll have to go back to my stable version and W7 (which is home version and doesn't support RDC), or use a different player to keep control from tablet.

I put SFS 2 and...
I'm gonna try to play something until you read my Paypal email and send me the activation code :)

You are mixing up a few things here. Nothing is like that - not with these numbers or nomenclature. :)

A Max SFS of [large number] will kill you in the first place. So set that to the maximum you think you are going to use for the SFS. Like 2.00.
So if your SFS would be really on 150, nothing will play in 4GB of memory. OK ?

Peter

Hey, sorry Peter, I just reported the default values I had before.

I just finished to do all the optimizations provided in xxhe and 3 reboots ;)
SFS 2.00 (max 2.00) straight contiguous - I'm gonna test this. This should be error-free. IF so, i'll move up to 4 and then to 10.19 later on (my goal).
Otherwise I will upgrade the memory to 8GB.

I'll try to play a full album (attended, not with RDC yet) and see if I have hiccups.

BTW I did fire up task manager before and the memory and CPU uses are very low. Something else was acting up I think, probably just needed some optimizations I didn't do manually (like disable defender - the biggest memory user I had).
I will update everything here.

Hi Telstar,

So, looking good now !


There are no Anti Virus programs "allowed" anyway, or else anything can happen. And the stupid thing of Windows Defender is that it won't be there for everyone (in Minimized OS). What's the rationale there, never came to me.
So, good that you found it !


Good. But remember that you must start playback (for a second or 2) ASAP after booting into MinOS or else the memory will be eaten (with you being low on memory). After that all is fine (but don't kill XXEngine3.exe).

:)

Regards,
Peter

I haven't tried minOS yet.
I just got rid of defender using group policy and I'm gonna play for a hour or two before reporting anything new.

I did get Out of memory even with 2.00/2.00 straight contiguous (sigh) when defender was on.
So I'm going 2/2 with mixed contiguous. Will report anything new, and update my signature accordingly.
Things in task manager look good (4% cpu, 20% memory) so maybe I'm fine now.

Hi gang
Would someone be good enough to let me have a reliable link to a 64bit version of 14393? If this is still the one to have?
Thanks in advance
Jack

I googled and found it on windowsiso site, which has links from Microsoft servers, therefore it's 100% original and safe.

Here you go:
http://windowsiso.net/windows-10-iso/windows-10-anniversary-update-1607-download-build-14393-0/windows-10-anniversary-update-1607-iso-download-standard/

I think I got this one.

Thanks man
I'll give it a try & see if my old ears can hear an operating system!
Jack

Allright, for some reason, using RDC I'm still getting several out of memory errors.
I'm getting a ram upgrade ASAP. So, it will either be 12GB or 20GB total (I could switch the 8GB from my work computer, which is still DDR3 and get the "new" 16GB set there).

Do I need 20GB, Peter?

Hi Telstar,

No. Unless you are going to work with the real higher SFS like 100+. But this is not comon any more.
12GB will do. :)

When you want to play around with a RAM disk, then anything is possible.

Be careful with the "uneven" number of memory modules; not all MoBo's take 3 (but do take 1, 2 or 4).

Peter

I remember i was doing something with the ramdisk in(putting XXE in there or copying the files i guess).
I got a good deal for 2x8GB, which added to the 2x2GB currently installed makes 20GB.
I'm going this route.

Then I could make a 8GB ramdisk for files, correct? Too much?
I'll never be able to put the OS in there, just files and/or xxhe.

05 | Installing and using a RAMDisk (IMDisk) (http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=2915.0).

There's a section in there "Space required".

Thank you very much! I will do it once I get the new ram.

It is quite astonishing, though, how just using RDC causes out of memory errors at a rate 20 times more than when using the computer directly.

I think it is not so astonishing. This is because RDC does not use the video card's RAM in the Audio PC. It uses normal memory instead.
... which is a super good thing because now you can remove the video card, which these days is almost a requirement for good sound.

Peter

Oh, I see :)
I use the onboard intel gfx, but I cant and wont disable it from bios, otherwise I couldnt access to the computer in case of problem without a spare vga card which I dont have.

Unfortunally the ram kit i had found was ddr3 while my mainboard still uses ddr2. The maximum i can get will be 16gb with 4x4gb modules.

I went ahead to experiment with various sfs, since i get oom errors anyway (without logic looking at actual memory used, but i know that windows is dumb so I'm not pointing the finger to xxhe).

I cannot use straight contiguous, not even 0,19mb (silly!)
All tests have been done with mixed contiguous. I tested
0,19
2,00
2,19
10,19
20,19

And i prefer the latter. 10,19 in particular sounded a little harsh with more pronounced sibilants. No clear difference between the 3 lowest settings.

My hope is to be able to use straight contiguous with 16gb of total ram.
Tbe ramdisk tests will also must wait.

Not sure whether it helps, but be sure to start a few seconds of playback the soonest after booting. It's probably too late already, but the more seconds you wait, the more "contiguous" memory will be eaten by other processes, scattering everything.

Side note : I recall that the memory reserved for this is at block boundaries. So once you are under that limit (of 2MB or 4MB) making the SFS smaller does not help any more (SQ will still change though).


Not that you can work with it, but notice that this 0.19 example number, it without unit. So it is not MB or something. In the far end memory is implied surely, but it is merely about a "response". So it implies memory alright (the smaller the number the lesser the memory used), but there's matters involved like bit depth and sampling rate and sort of buffer and Q1 size and ...
It can not be explained (and I dont want to :)).

Peter

I reverted to 2,19 because with 20,19 i was getting too many ooms. Today was a bad day.
In my setup, no differences between 0,19 - 2,00 and 2,19. The theory of the decimal 19 is a sound one so I went for it.

Indeed there are certain albums that triggers it more often, besides the use of RDC (too handy, I cant really get up to load a new track or pause to answer phone).
Most times I just close the popup and the playback continues without issues til the end of the album. Other times audio stops and I restart the player.

I'll check Q settings tomorrow comparing to your signature (both configs).
I wish I had the right ram to upgrade sigh. Hopefully soon, but gotta rely on 2nd hand market.

Thank you for the feedback, Telstar.
I hope you can find some of that memory.

Peter

4 more gigs incoming in a day or two.
Let's see if this will fix the OOMs.

Ordered Intel Q9550S, which was one of the 3 best options: 4c/8t 12MB cache with 65W TDP only. Not sure how long will take the delivery from Japan (lol found it only there).
Motherboard will need the last bios (will put it ASAP), but it's compatible and it will be downclocked.

Then there is only the wait for a whole new system :)

Got the ram, plugged it and it works.
No errors while playing at desktop. Trying RDC now.

Ha !

Not error free unfortunately,  but i can generally play a full album without one.
Idk why memory management is so bad that 8gb dont cover all. Looks like the previously written blocks aren't freed.

Hey Telstar,

I feel that something else could be (or should be) the matter. But mind you please, it still is so that few will have the experience with so few memory these days. Anyway :

Is the version you use (still) 14393.0 ?
See a cleared Playlist Area for the version.

What is the resolution you are using while on the remote ?
Bit depth ? (implying you can set that lower)

Peter

Yes, I believe it’s acting strangely. With 11% used memory I shouldn’t be getting this, and there are a few more errors, i list later.

Today, 3 albums loaded in playlist. At the middle of the first I got “engine3 didn’t start in time” and sound stopped. This happened 3 times, even without RDC.

W10 14393.0
Dac is 24 bit/384. At >16 bit requires 24bit
I use software attenuation from 20 to 40db, depending on album.
AP 4x. I play either redbook upsampled 24/176 or highres 24/96 upped at 24/192. The type of track seems to not matter, nor its format (flac or mp3).
Core appointment 1-2 (got only 2, new cpu will take 1 month to arrive from Japan).
I’m keeping log active, in case you want to see it.

Other bug: i finish one album, alone in playlist. I wanna play again one track, i select it, hit play and no sound. Have to close xxhe and re-launch it. It happens all the times with RDC.

Oom errors seem confined to RDC playback. No: also without rdc. Just got two at track 4/20 of a flac album.

Hi Telstar,

Maybe it is good to remind you that XXHighEnd is made for Unattended Playback and that is not what you are using, as it seems. From there (Attended) it really requires knowledge of your system and what it can take to play Attendedly (thus with GUI) in sustained fashion.
I can do it (still with requred knowledge) by my system is not slow anywhere except for the CPU cycles (500 MHz). This is crucial.

But maybe I observe wrong in the first place ?


This tells nothing. And it especially tells nothing when you use either of the "Contiguous" memory modes.
Now go and read the 1000+ pages books on Windows memory organisation and Garbage Collection. Eh, for each OS (eh, version).

It could be well so that the most "errors" happen because of your own idea about how Windows operates and next state to yourself that it should work and make yourself crazy with it.

Did you know that your mentioned error actually can spring only from "disk full" situations ?

Best regards,
Peter

Well my goal was to get "normal" playback rock solid first (like it was with 09-4.1 on W7), but it seems it was the wrong move. Back onto the drawing board.

So I did two things:
1) Activated windows and then shut off internet again. No update was installed. I suspect this was creating some background activity. Created a restore point.
2) Used minimized OS. Can live with it as long as CTL+ALT+DEL still works ;)
NB: I'm still using mixed contiguous.

I'm testing today without RDC and I will report any error I may encounter.
The OS disk has plenty of space, it's a 128GB SSD.
But... the library disk is a 5400rpm spinning disc suspended with rubber bands. This one could be a little full, I have to check.
No, and this rings a big bell!

My next move is to replace the library disk with a 2TB MLC SSD (Crucial still makes one that is reliable). I dont feel it sluggish, but I can hear when it is accessed and/or the software writes on it -3m from the PC.

Another thing I can do is to put the old 32GB SSD which hosted W7 as a XXE drive.
As alternative I could make a 2-3GB ramdrive.
What do you think would be best (for smooth playback, SQ comes next)?

Disk checked: I have 400GB free, so that's definitely not the cause.
So far no errors today....

Peter let me know your opinion on the two options I'm considering for playback (small ramdrive or dedicated ssd).
Third option: usung straight contiguous instead (if i can).

Telstar, my only option would be to have it 100% error free first and then see further (it will also determine possibilities).

On a side note : that out of memory can virtually only come from the OS Disk.
Do you have your Virtual Memory on for Drive C: (OS Disk) ?
"We guys" mostly have it Off but we also have 16GB or 32GB of memory. You should really have it On (RightClick MyPC, Properties, Advanced, Advanced tab, Settings in the first section.

Peter

Agreed!
So RDC stable playback as first goal.


Going to check. I think I put 4GB, as I usually keep it same size as RAM. Yes, it was 4GB.
Changed to 16GB and restarting.

cr*p, it just gave me a “MemOrg error 02”.
I’m going to shut down and restart the pc now. Also I’ll clean the playlist and load a new one.

Twice the internal memory size is "normal".
I thought you had more than 4GB of memory by now ?

Yes, I have 8GB now, but virtual memory was left at 4GB.
With 16GB virtual memory I cannot use garbage collect anymore it seems.
Restarted, new album and same error.
What should I do? Try 8 GB or go without GC?

Maybe this is not 100% exact ?
I can't find this particular error (text).

I must have copied wrong. Was dealing with my cat at the same time.
Anyway, the window error also said to disable garbage collection if that happened again. It happened twice in a riw, so I did.

Now, i put gc on again and the error didn’t reappear, but I got this (photo attached)

https://s18.postimg.org/927w17yhl/3_BA8_AC04-_F2_A4-4246-86_D8-_D42_C23_B3_FDDB.jpg

I better don't tell what happened next. My ears still hurt.  :scare:

But can I incur for that too ? How ?
I promise I will put my amps off. :)

After that error, i got a similar one, then closed xxhe and decided to restart the PC. I didn't turn my amps off nor change dac input, because I have been trouble free for very long time.
Not yesterday. It emitted a screeching sound until i could switchoff the DAC. It hurt my ears and my cats' for 2 hours. Luckily the speakers weren't damaged.

Moreover, after such restart it was impossible to login from the local PC, got a black screen with mouse pointer. Powered off a minute and back on, same thing. It somehow corrupted something in Windows.
I could log with RDC, so I did and removed minOS from there. At reboot I could log from the PC locally, but (another bug for ya) Windows was deactivated.
I could restore my own point which was just before the one created by xxhe, and everything seems back as it was, including OOM errors (attended, 8GB+16GB virtual memory). Garbage collect off to prevent some sh*t like that from happening again.

Conclusion: I'm not going to try minOS anymore. I was quite happy with it until that happened.

And the OOM errors happens only with normal OS at attended. So, I'm asking you to test that. Locally or RDC is the same thing, RDC being worse. I think that the amount of memory of your PC doesn't make a difference, the cores dunno.
PS: the big virtual memory could be related to the strange error before the screech, and/or with garbage collecting so I think you should setup virtual memory = 2x physical RAM too.

I remember I also got "MemOrg #2" message when I was still on 2.08d trying to use 5.19 and Straight Contiguous together. I could cured this issue by using 5.19 and "Mixed" or "Contiguous Mixed" combos. All this went away after installing 2.10. :)

ZH

I was using SFS 2.19 mixed contiguous on v2.08, tried also 10.19 and never got that erro before.
It's definitely something related to memory physical AND virtual.
Have you changed your virtual memory (swap file) perhaps?

I don't use RAM-OS, so I don't think I deployed virtual memory, not that I know of anyway.
ZH

Your PC is more similar to mine than Peter's ;)

You don't need Virtual memory although it won't do any harm except maybe to sound quality.

Maybe you have a faulty RAM card, do a memory test, might be an option in bios to do it.

Colin

But no literal "error" text ?
I like to find this error message in the code ...

and I'd like to not see these OOM popups anymore.  ;)
Not even talking about what caused the screech.

W10 14393.0 is still available from

https://getintopc.com/softwares/operating-systems/windows-10-pro-64-redstone-rs1-14393-july-2016-download-4309298/

as well as W10 10586.0

https://getintopc.com/softwares/operating-systems/windows-10-pro-build-10586-64-bit-iso-free-download-1295486/

~Joseph