XXHighEnd

That sounds interesting and seems to be an economical solution
http://intona.eu/en/products (http://intona.eu/en/products)

Finally ...

Thank you Georg. I am gong to try one as soon as it's available.

Best regards,
Peter

I might be mistaken, but aren't these things (just examples) supposed to do (approximately) the same:

• http://www.bb-elec.com/Products/USB-Connectivity/USB-Isolators/USB-Isolators.aspx
• http://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.com/HW/USB_Isolator.htm
• http://www.firestone-audio.eu/shop/products/allproductslisted/greenkey.php

The only problem with these things seems to be that there are severe limitations on it (only up to 96KHz/24bit) and I cannot see if this is different for the Itona device mentioned here (but that is probably because I am not hindered by too much technical knowledge :grin:.)

Hans

I think that up to now, the available isolators could not work at a speed higher than 12mbit, thus explaining why they are limited to 24/96.

The new high speed USB isolator from Intona seems to allow a transfer speed of 480mbit.

So it looks quite interesting :)

Alain 

Hi Peter,

I received an email about the availability of the Intona High Speed USB isolator this morning and I suppose you have too ?

It would be very interesting :) I intend to eventually order it...

Regards,

Alain

Hey Alain,

You know ... I completely forgot about this ...
I even forgot to sneak in one in advance (I thought I would be able to manage). So I certainly did not even think of subscribing ...

But time goes fast and it is already there ?
Great.
I just ordered one.

:yahoo:

Thank you for the reminder !!
Peter

PS: Should be here tomorrow or the day after. Will let know the "result" !

Aren't we here to help each other :)

I see there are 2 "levels" of the same product (the "regular" and the "industrial" one), but I suppose that the regular would be more than enough :)

I also see that they sell "barebone" ones (without the casing) with a minimum 25 units requirement ? Just saying, because I could eventually make a nice wooden box for it :)

I feel a little "dumb", but even so I asked them if there was a DC input for people that would prefer using a linear power supply instead of the "dirty" +5V bus coming from the PC. But since there is isolation, maybe it is not useful to think about that...

We'll see :)

Regards,

Alain

Haha ...

I just stopped tinkering about that USB powered stuff. "By the USB bus". Oh, how ? I just don't get it for this moment, because what about the DAC side ?
But possibly the power travels over the isolator as well ...
Anyway I had the same idea - people might want to self-power it.
Otoh, also notice that since there is no external power supply, there also can't spring noise from that. Btw, this is in the (now there) datasheet :


Now THAT is a strange spec (that frequency range) for a digital USB connection. Someone has been dreaming there or I just don't get it.

The industrial one also slipped my mind ...
The only advantage I personally saw was about more firm connectors or something. Otherwise ? well, I think it will be different (different chips used in there). So it may sound different. :)
Still I (only) ordered the consumer version.

Regards,
Peter

A strange spec indeed... It looks as if there are two different domains... Power and data ? It would be nice if they provide more details about this measurements protocol...

Alain

It would also be very interesting to see a graphic of the "USB pattern eye" with and without the isolation...

Humm...

Alain

Maybe something like this http://www.ti.com/lit/an/slyt211/slyt211.pdf (http://www.ti.com/lit/an/slyt211/slyt211.pdf) is used.

All,

Yesterday the Isolator arrived;
It even works. That it "isolates" - I'll assume that.

The first what occurred to me was the led (at both the input and the output) which blinks of a rate of I think 25 times per second. Not much "audiophile like" if I may say so. Nervous looking stuff.
But alas, audible ?


I will start with sort of the end :

After 20 seconds of the first music, music stopped. This happens more often, namelijke once per year. :swoon:

After this, all was fine for the next hour, until again stops occurred which I did not recognize as common. And too many of them to comfortably listen.
This caused me to remove another "resistance creating" tweak, because I know of "anynschonisation stops" after a while because of wrong too high resistance in the cable.
Now it worked again.

Today, after countless number blinks of the leds all night long, I played something, but sound stopped within 10 seconds. And again. And again and again.
It did not want to work any more.
I removed the Isolator, and all was fine.

And with relief.

The sound with Isolator - I don't know what to think of it. It can only be wrong-wrong-wrong, but how can I really know. *Everything* is emphasized and in a fashion which bytes. As if all is too fast; no difference between a low volume and the development of a blast. The blast is there too much at once (some would call it too dynamical). Bass is very very stiff, without much "feeling" in it. Woofers feel odd.
Technically very good ?

Because I was trying to get a track running for quite some times this morning, it was quite easy to hear the sudden difference without the Isolator. All now had frequency under it. Not that the sound with it was too cold, but as said, there wasn't sufficient development of the tones.

What shall I say ... Not recommended ?

Regards,
Peter

Hi Peter,

Thanks for the report. I guess we will wait a while and see what others will develop around, since this seems to be the first to work under hi speed USB (480mbits).

I did not check if there is a return policy about it, but it would certainly not be bad to express to them your perception about it. That led that blinks like crazy, the stops, the alteration of the signal that seems to affect SQ... All things that could be a feedback and encouragment to refine the product...

When you have time of course, but since we are playing with dates with Win 10, maybe it will allow you some more time ;)

Thanks again !

Alain
PS: Maybe it is time (again) to think about something like the Adnaco ;)

It's a pity. The device is an additional module in the chain and it seems, that it's intrusing additional interferences into the system with regard to timing and whatsoever. So there is no easy silver bullet for SQ with galvanic isolated USB ...

Georg

I am wondering if galvanic isolation is a trade-off ? If anywhere where there is *real* galvanic isolation, there is automatically a loss in SQ ?

Alain

Hey all, back again ...

Today is the 4th day into the newly received Intona Highspeed USB Isolator, but I could just as well have reported after day 1. Quite unusual that would be - such a confidence ...
But I had to wait because I was finishing some XXHighEnd version (2.04, just put up now).

So what happened ?
After my initial trying (briefly written about in this topic) - nothing much. I never heard about it any more from anywhere either. Until ...
A week ago.

Someone on a forum elsewhere (CA) had referred to this topic, Mr Daniel (CEO from Intona) responded and was curious why I never got back to Intona with my "failing" device and again someone else with the name of Alain :) pointed me at the thread over there.
And then I saw that possibly it is not the best in all situations to be polite and don't ask money back at least. My main "problem" was that I received the very first Intona Isolator, which I wasn't even aware of. I started to feel sorry that I did not help to solve an issue ...

So I contacted Daniel and 10+ emails back and forth later, last Monday I received a new Isolator.

First off : this one works. I mean, it doesn't stop working by means of getting warmer or whatever the cause was.
Secondly, *if* it would stop working, I'd throw it in the fridge or whatever, and would use it happily next day again.
:yes:

I have a new strange term for it : Infinity.
Side note : More often I have been talking about e.g. highs being able to go "infitely loud" without hurting and while being "good" in the first place. So that kind of Infinity I mean. But now broader ...

I'd even dare to go as far as saying that SQ is "infinitely good" as in "the repairer of all". So yes, it is like it repairs everything which needed repairing. Yesterday I was as far as thinking that even W10 10586.0 would sound good because of it, but I did not want to tryit at Christmas Eve.
But OK, "Infinitely good" is a too strange one, so it has to come down to "Infinitely This" and "Infinitely That". But now it is hard to find the words (hey, that happens to me more often, lately).

It seriously feels like : we have done everything and all in so many years of time, but what's inherently wrong is just that and although you can still (audibly) improve, it is that one thing which is always sauced over all. It can't be avoided or eliminated because it is just there.
And then one day you get rid of that thing after all. BANG. And *because* you applied so many already and the "thing" is now so profoundly bad, all is now Infinitely better.
Yes, I think I am getting there now. So not Infinitely Good (that would be too stupid to say) but Infinitely Better. Yes, that would be allowed I think.

Don't ask me how it works because my Phasure NOS1a already was isolated, but I feel that the ground potential at (in) the DAC's side now is 0:0 (at both sides of the isolation, I mean). And ... it should. Think like this :

Previously there was +56V (or whatever) of potential at the input side (of USB). Behind it, there's 0V because of the Isolation. Effect ? Radation. At least that's what I have always been saying and thinking (about). The Voltage just can't disappear to my belief and thus it radiates.
There is much (much) more to say about this, but too complicated and too unsure. Anyway, that radiation should now be in/round the Intona box which is 15cm from the PC in my situation (I chose to have it close to the PC without real reason (eh, at first :)). Maybe later I'll build a receiving antenna to move that (assumed) radation out of the way as well.

---

A couple of crucial things to additionally mention :

As a #1 customer I was offered to have the leds not blinking (I read later that the both normally blink at a rate of 14Hz). I grabbed that offer with both hands.
Does this help the good SQ ? I think it very well can. And well, at least you wouldn't take the risk, do you ? So I asked Daniel whether every "Audio" oriented customer was allowed to ask for this, and Daniel answered Yes.

Without asking, I received the Industrial version (my #1 was the normal version). This is - from the top of my head - a version with more robust USB connectors (they really are to my perception as it almost takes two persons to remove the (B-side ) cable form it) and with 2.5KV of isolation instead of 1KV (I'd say this fact in itself is not important). But since the Industrial version is 100 euros more expensive I
a. thought that this maybe wasn't useful to now "test" because what about the normal version which you might like to obtain (it's about the $ for some);
b. thought that it was a bit odd to receive something of 100 euros more of value while I didn't even need to send back the old one.
Surprise : the Industrial version has received more attention to the timing and some more stuff like heftier chips (the 2.5KV isolation thing). Worth a 100 more ? of course, when this is the result now. But please notice that I can not test it. It's even so that the other one (the normal one) doesn't work (for too long) but the reason is unclear at this moment. Well, maybe that later the firmware has been changed and the (Daniel offered) reason to begin with to try another one.
Lastly there's some inside information which makes me say that indeed you better get the Industrial version.
So that's something like 350 euros including 19% of VAT for those liable to VAT and otherwise it's ~295 euros.
Be careful, because the Intona ordering page shows the price including VAT for those countries liable to VAT (and when you're a company the VAT is deducted from the listed price).
Hey, it now looks like I have financial interests in Intona eh ? Ok, I could (resell the isolator) but I rather take distance and be passionately positive instead.

By now many of you use the Clairixa USB cable, like I do myself. But careful, I now use two. Have to. :o
The one at the PC side is 15cm (which btw is a bit too short) and don't ask be what happens when we put a normal piece of wire in that place. For me this was an easy decision, as I just ordered someone to make me that 15cm. But for you ...
I feel I can't ask 200 - (8 (x 10cm) x 3 euros) 24 = 176 euros for 20 cm of stupid USB cable, but that would be the official price. And then always that shipping ...
But let's say that for 20cm I ask 100 euros and then think that we can efficiently produce them because they are all of the same length.

Anyway ...


No no no ! Highly recommened now !

Regards,
Peter

Wow, what a day :) To get the new XXHighEnd version, then read the latest post about the revised Intona USB Isolator (industrial)...

I know that is not the wisest thing in my actual situation (money wise), but Christmas time surely has something to do about my decision to say "What the heck" and order the industrial unit ;)

You have a strong voice Peter :) I can hear you from my (not so) cold part of the world :)

Kind regards,

Alain

Yes, I ordered the Intona! So Peter put me on the list for the 20 cm Clairixa.
Regards, Arjan

Hi all,

Two general remarks :

1.
Daniel told me that the wish for the non-blinking led can be announced in the Paypal process. Literally I was told this :


To make it more convenient for Intona, I would use the "Paypal note" (no idea how, but it will be obvious, I suppose).

2.
It seems a good idea to ship the small USB cable together with the "RAM" Disk. The timing for the both will be OK for that. It is only that the process itself of both making the disks and the cables is relatively time consuming (I'd say we can't produce more than 4 sets a day, once we started with it).

Best regards,
Peter

Hi Peter,

Great tweak! I wondered how it's powered. By the incoming USB wire?

Regards, Coen

Something else :

I think we need to make the USB cable longer than 20cm. So mine is 15cm and by heart I thought that 20cm would be fine, but it depends on the situation where to put the Intona box. In my case it wouldn't even be enough.

Hi Peter,

I have placed order for the Intona USB isolator so I would need the 20 cm Clarixa too.

You could ship the Clarixa with the Base disk.

If all agree maybe 30 cm should be good enough.

Best regards,

Arvind

Hey Coen,

Since there's nothing else, yes, must be. :)

And/but as I told earlier in the topic : I can't guess how that works on the other side of the isolation. So, power is clearly transferred as well, but what I still don't get is how the chip(-part) on the other (clean) side of the isolation is powered. You'd say "take the USB power of the dirty (incoming) side", but *that* is not the idea with full galvanic isolation. Well, that is what I "learned".

I suppose that with a somewhat more "difficult thinking" I would be able to make up a completely different means of galvanic isolation, but I guess I'd soon run into the problem of not being fully isolated.
So your NOS1a is fully isolated, but the clean side is powered by that same clean side (while the dirty side is powered by the dirty side). And just saying : would I mix these up (turn the both around for powering) then all would still work as usual, but now without being isolated. Also, whether isolated or not is not even easy to test. One can try to look at the results (like noisy changes into no-noise like how I did that indirectly with the jitter measurements), or one can "see" the difference in ground potential between the two sides, which isn't even easy to do well. But here too, if you first can proove the no-difference while with isolation the difference is there (like my 56V example), it has to work. If after isolation the difference is still 0V it doesn't tell much, because the "back door" might connect back to the front door (which in the end is an error again, because that shouldn't happen we you try to isolate something).

This is really all not so easy ...

Regards,
Peter

In the CA forum discussion on the Intona I read more about this as well.
Also someone tested it with different usb cables, it seems that Intona should be close to the dac?
But with the short Clairixa we can test that our selfs.

Regards, Arjan

Maybe people currently owning the Clairixa (knowing its degree of stiffness) can tell what their minimum required length is ? I just have no idea as it depends on where the PC is and where the box can be.
The box weighs about 100 grams (thus really not much) and measures 13.5 x 9 x 4 cm.

Peter

Hi Peter,

Please put me down to ship a short Clarixa with my OS RAM drive. I think 30-40cm would be good. If any of us want to put it on the same shelve as the NOS1a, it would be long enough to set the isolator between the front two legs of DAC.

Thanks,
Todd

Hi Peter,

20cm cable for me.  :)

Arjan, that is not how I read things. Someone just put it close to the DAC, used a connector/adapter in order to avoid "cable" and a few posts further down the line he admits that such adapters destroy the probably carefully created impedance (this latter is his opinion or idea).

Let's keep in mind that what I tested is my test, in my situation and is thus a sort of "your guarantee" because it can be your situation.
Far more important, in my view, is my idea about the radiation, now not being close to the DAC. But that too, is only an estimate because I seek explanations for the (way) better sound. Remember, your NOS1a already *is* isolated, so it can't be the isolation (yeah, laugh). A few options I can think of :

1. Mentioned radiation now being in another (less harmful) place;
2. The USB noise being harmful to the receiver side of the DAC, that now being (more) clean (don't ask me how the "worse" receiver operation influences SQ in a bad way);
3. The (output) impedance of the PC being corrected right away (but connect Intona close to the PC), that benefiting all of the USB cable length.

In my personal view, #1 is likely, #2 can be in order but I don't know how, #3 can be of vast importance.

With all that, do notice that world wide I can not find any proof of whatever element in the technical chain (like MoBo manufacturer, USB cable manufacturer) paying very explicitly attention to the 90 Ohm impedance, required for best operation. I even wonder (without trying to be negative in any means !) whether Intona explicitly "generates" the 90 Ohms (which would be 2x 45 Ohms). If you look at the USB connectors in general, it can already go wrong very easily. Compare with the construction of coax connectors and you see what I mean. There ALL is done to imply the rated impedance. But that is another world - highly dependent on proper communication. USB is ... well, a toy ?
Anyway, I am contradicting myself with the "lousy USB output" from a MoBo on one side, and Intona not being able to deal with that properly as well, on the other. So the real message logically should be :
Yeah, the MoBo output undoubtedly s*cks, and Intona corrects that super nicely.
But I really can't know.

And to make it more complicated once again :
Do you use the MoBo output ? I don't. I use a Silverstone USB card. Many of us do. Why was that ? I forgot ...
haha

Peter

Hi Todd, thank you. But see my previous post ...
In my view it would NOT be a good idea to place the Intona close to the DAC because of the (by me expected) radition.

Best regards,
Peter

Peter,

When you mention "radiation", I suppose you mean that the Intona is not built to hold them since it is not isolated with a material that can contain it ? This of course, as a consequence of cutting the ground voltage ?

Alain

Understood Peter,

Makes sense to keep all the noisy PC related items together away from the NOS1a.

If the Intona is to be placed close to the pc (Silverstone card) and weighs only 100g., then floating it between the Longer Clairixa on the DAC site and a short Cairixa on the pc site would be a solution in my case. The Intona would not be standing on a shelf then. A Clairixa of circa 15-20cm would be enough to make a 90 degrees bend.

Regards,
Stanley

Stanley, you are completely right. But somehow I don't feel good with such a solution. Look at my photo of it; I already put something under it. It is true though that I started telling about that 100 gramms because if "your reason". But I did not want to spell that out ...
Maybe it is personal.

Regards,
Peter

Hi Alain,

Although I suppose it indeed is so that the "plastic" case is not really suitable for holdig the radiation inside, this was not on my mind at all. Btw, there can be a protective thin layer glued on the inside.
But I think that just in general such radiation doesn't let catch itself anyway. You can guide it into a direction, but not stop it (also think like energy never getting lost (or created)).

Regards,
Peter

Hi Peter,

A nice second Christmas day to you all.

Question:
Did you test an “off the shelf” USB cable between the PC and Intona?

On CA (#22) suspicions are that in THIS connection the quality of the USB cable has less influence to the SQ than downstream to the DAC.

Joachim

Hi Joachim,

No, I did not test that. But if you don't mind - and I said such things before - I only trust myself and sometimes you (haha). I mean, wasn't it so that half (or the whole) of CA likes the light-blue USB cable as "a best" one ?
You know, that same cable I ditched in 10 seconds ? and quite some more of "us" ?
It is just an example.

Theories are there to be founded very well. Some times mine are or at least I try hard. The same counts for all of us, in here (at least that is my idea and the reason I listen to "you" just the same and why we listen to each other). That does not count at all for what happens on other forums ...

Let me get this subject out of the way with this :
If you read closely my first posts about the Intona (months ago) you have read that I had to undo a tweak and that it helped to let the Isolator work longer on the first day.
With the same tweak in, it now doesn't want to work at all (Driver is not loaded into the NOS1a). The tweak is a cable.
So that critical it is.

Btw, you can just as well ask me to try all the other USB cables again on the output side, because someone on CA thinks (and he could be right) that it does not matter. Or it does, and now that other cable is better.
Personally I have (much much) more to do when I am satisfied to begin with. So I leave those tests to you. :) :)

Best regards,
Peter

And Joachim ...

I think this could be a better / more nice response from me :

I honestly did not think about that, while I now imply another 100 euros of cost for you guys.

Point is : this consideration really doesn't come to my mind because I just like to have it the best from all angles. Just look at this, which really happened over here :

There comes my first Intona Isolator. Am I eager to try ? Yes, of course I am as I am no different from all of us.
What would have been easier than taking the stock cable laying around, which is always used to test new DAC's right next to my own (I test with that cable because such a cable is provided with the NOS1(a)).
But do you really think that even *that* came to my mind ? No. Instead I now saw what could be done (having the box in my hands) and "ordered" to make me that small piece which couldn't even happen that day because of someone being busy with other things first.

All I want to say is : such a thing of using / trying a stock cable does not even come to my mind, no matter how logic it would seem to you. It wouldn't be the best, knowing that the Clairixa is the best (in normal circumstances). Why would I even think about wasting my time on something which maybe is not optimal for the situation.
Please keep in mind my "required" 5 days ...

And secret : What I am doing instead at this moment is testing 10586.0 again. So far it survived since yesterday ...
And as I can't (or shouldn't) test two changes at the same time, I will continue with 10586.0 and not with USB cables.

Still it would be correct that I could avoid the 100 euros for you (all). I could have done the same with buying and buying and buying stock cables until one sounds better and pass on a link to the $1 cable. But ...
:whistle:
Peter

Peter

I need a 20 cm Clarixa to.
Have a Nice Christmas.

Regards Arnt

Hi Peter,

I'll take take 50 and 80 cm please.

Best regards,
Diede

Ordered.

Peter, please add me to the list of short USB cables.

Cheers,

Anthony

Hi Diede,

It doesn't work like that. :sorry:
:)
I didn't announce it like that, but say that the offer for the relatively very low price is for existing customers of the Clairixa. Think like a service because people are sort of (forced) in the corner because of the Intona. So normal price is 200 euros for 1 meter and then plus or minus 3 euros per 10cm more or less. For the second one counts the 100 euros, ehm ... for 20cm. And no, let's not start adding 3 euros per 10cm. I just don't know yet.
N.b.: Max I saw so far is 30cm (excluding yours) so maybe it is going to be that.

Of coure you can buy the first for the normal price and the second one with the lower price in one go.

I did not put you on the list (yet).
And I hope you are not offended. :)

Peter

Hi Peter,

No problem charging me 200€ for the first one, please put me on the list for both.

Diede

I see what you mean Peter.

Because of limited/no space on the shelfs of my rack, the unit will have to be attached to the rack somehow and that will require a longer piece of cable (20-30 cm).

Regards,
Stanley

Hi Peter,

Don't know if you saw this post on Whats Best Forum (http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?19326-Intona-High-Speed-USB-isolator!&s=44a78f8e8775ec282c4d766ccc650007&p=362795&viewfull=1#post362795) where Daniel from Intona answers some technical questions.  One thing I noticed that relates to your quote above: 

"Our design is completely impedance controlled, also for the tight rules of USB 2.0 which is 90 Ohms for diff/odd and 45 even. We are experts in high speed circuit design with many years of experience."

Also found it interesting that they use MEMS oscillators instead of quartz crystal.

Hi all,
Got my Intona isolator today. Running it now, at first the dac was not 'seen' anymore. But after some switching of cables that is okay now.
I use a standard Phasure usb cable from audio pc to isolator and Clairixa from isolator to dac.
Result? Really good, for me it is not a night and day difference but the low and highs are more beautiful. Yes I like it very much so far, but that is after only 1 hour listening....
Regards, Arjan

I received my Intona (industrial version) today. After letting it warm up (finally it looks like we are in winter), I connected it. For the moment, I got a 38cm USB cable that was included with the iFi iUSB that connects from the PC to the Intona, then a Clairixa USB cable from Intona to NOS1 (not the NOS1a).

I notice that the lead is flashing when starting the PC, but when music starts playing, it stays lit, without blinking (even when not playing music). Even after restarting the PC, it does not blink.

First impressions are interesting. Everything is cleaner, with more details and air. Not night and day, but a fluidity.

I will not "pollute" the thread as I am still with Win 8 pro plain vanilla for the moment. I intend to switch to Win 10 (again), but for the moment I am fine with W8 (XXHE 2.03, to be upgraded soon for 2.04) .

I like it ! Thanks Peter :)

Alain

Hi Alain,

Why would that be polluting ? In the end it is about the best sound, and might that be W8 then it is W8. It is only that I myself did not have the chance really to try it. Each listening test takes a few days, as you know.

So it is not explicitly meant for W10 at all. However, I must say that it is a means to "attack" the otherwise "strange" sound of W10. And for that it seems to help (a lot) ...

Regards,
Peter

Nah ... Daniel doesn't answer any questions in there - that is faked by Keith from Purite Audio (copied from CA). And funny, I was waiting for Keith to pop up somewhere.
In a next post he is selling the Intona to you. Bet ?
(I kicked a post from him from this forum many years ago with a similar activity).
I am sure Keith is a nice man, but he is toooo commercial and not good at it even.

Notice that he creates a post on the 25th of December with that text, while I long gone responded to that same text, had my next Intona "ordered" and received, some of you got yours etc. etc. ...

Peter

Hi Alain,
The behavior off your led lights is the same as with mine. Because I leave the power on, separate linear psu, it is now blincking. When the pc is up and running it becomes non-blincking.
I have asked for non- blincking, so I thought it would not light at all, but that is no issue, because the isolator is out of sight. And when running it is non-blincking......so as asked for.
Regards, Arjan

I don't see issues anywhere, but to be sure :


When I boot my PC then already during boot (not right from the start of it) the led starts to be stable (lit continuously) but in a somewhat later stage it starts blinking again. Then at the final stage it gets again stable.
I don't need to play music for that (see quote from Alain's text).

Please notice what Intona/Daniel did for us :
He exchanged two "operation behaviours", namely Full Speed and High Speed. At least that is what I understood of it. This could be a tough thing to do, as it must be in everything (the whole electrical process of things). So my idea could be :

PC boots. USB in that case is Full Speed (12Mbit). This is sadly true for USB(3) and the reason why we can't use the Boot from RAM with USB (it is inifinitely slow). In that electrical stage the led thus blinks (slowly). So remember, it shows Full Speed now, why the not-adjusted Intona would show a continuous led for Full Speed.
Then USB High Speed comes up (480Mbit) and blinking stops. Then, right before the last stage of booting, USB High Speed is dropped again and the led blinks for a few seconds. Then finally the boot process completes and High Speed is up again (blinking stops).

:wacko:
Peter

Hi Arjan and Peter,

Thanks for the precisions. I did not stay next to my music PC while it was booting, so I did not see that the led had stopped blinking after Windows was fully loaded.

The only reason why I mentioned this is that my first reaction was one of "Oh no, they forgot to turn the led off...", but all is ok.

So a USB port will work only at full speed while the OS is booting... Not funny...

Alain
PS: Sorry for the "pollute" term on my part. I would prefer to be with the "pioneers" instead of trailing behind...

Alain,

Despite I did my best to mention the speeds with it, I still saw this one coming (I know how vague my English is) :


USB Full Speed is the slower variant (12 Mbit).
USB High Speed is the fastest speed for USB2 (480Mbit).
The highest speed is just available during normal operation. But it is not during the boot stage.

---

:offtopic:

Btw, USB Super Speed is the native USB3 speed of 5GBit.
Today there's a Generation 2 of that which is 10GBit.
And the sad thing is that these again don't work during booting.
Disclaimer and maybe someone knows : I am pretty sure that I was able to boot over USB3 in the first place, ever back; today I can't get this done any more and I don't know why.

---

Regards,
Peter

Maybe this is why I prefer to use Esata ? I find it faster than USB, even USB 3 and I am talking about Sata II (3gbit) or Sata III (6gbit). I did not know that now 10gbit exists with USB 3 gen 2... The fastest I got with USB 3 gen 1 was 60MB/sec (and this was varying a lot), while with Sata I could get beyond 80MB/sec... This with the same HDD (I have a few external cases that carry the 2 ports).

About using faster speed while booting, you probably tried playing with "Legacy" (ON and OFF) USB peripherals in BIOS ? Maybe there is something to dig there ? Unless there is a possibility to load a driver that is universal at first ? I don't know...

Alain

So my Itona USB isolator came yesterday and I got a chance to listen to it for about four hours. I didn't want to add any additional variables to the mix so I used XXHE 2.03 and W10 10074.

I first listened to my current setup which has a NeutronStar clock modified Uptone Regen USB re-clocker running off a lithium Ion battery power supply. The sound was as usual: very nice detail, ambiance, deep nicely scaled soundstage and nice black background.

Out came the Regen and in went the Itona with a short generic USB from the PC and the Clarixa 1m to the NOS1a 75b.

So I don't want to sound hyperbolic but, I was literally stunned at the difference! Like a complete removal of blur, smear and distortion. And this was in all important areas; frequency response, timing and dynamics. Every song I played was just so much more detailed and right. What really stood out was the delicacy of quiet passages but the incredible slam and quickness of percussion and piano. And the decay seemed infinite, just so natural. And the natural shimmer to cymbals was better than I've ever heard from my system.

We all have known the feeling of running through our favorites and hearing them as new again, but Wow! this was pretty dramatic.

All I can say, is thank you again Peter for being the Guinea Pig, and I can't wait to get my new ram drive OS disc and short Clarixa USB!! What a great way to bring in the New Year!

 :NY01: :NY02:
Todd

Yes Todd, I sense a same kind of judgement as my own. Not enough superlatives around to express about it. :)

But let's thank Alain, because he brought it to my attention again, after initially giving up on it.
And what about Georg (AKA Listening), who was the first to find it ...
And Daniel.
And ... well, ... anyway, not only me.

On to the next year !

Peter

Agreed Peter,

Such a great community here and I never want to take it for granted. When we get a consensus from all of us on something it's nice to have that validation we're on the right track!

Todd

Hi Todd,
Thanks for the report on the Intona.  Does the Regen improve the sound with the Intona or is it not needed anymore?
thanks,
dave

Hey Dave,

Everything is so "Right" with the Itona that I really can't imagine putting the Regen in series with it. There really is just no comparison in my system between the two of them. I think less is really more in this case.

I'll tell you what though, I'll put it in this weekend and report back, but I'm quite confident that it will detract from the performance and not add to it. What the hell though, I have both might as well try it and report what it does in my system and let you extrapolate from there.

Todd

I've just placed an order for an Intona too. I already have one short and one long length of Clarixa, so will be able to test the Intona with 'the best' USB cable immediately.

Will be back with thoughts on SQ once everything is up and running...

Mani.

Hi Peter,

A few years ago, there was an experiment about isolating the PCIe USB card from the PC frame and doing the same on the NOS1 side (detaching the   black ground cable that was tying the USB input port to the frame and taping its tip).

Since I still have a NOS1 (not the NOS1"a") and an Intona now, would you recommend to remove this isolation or to leave it as it is ? 

If I am asking this, it's because I do not have the knowledge if this is good or bad now...

Thanks,

Alain

Hey Alain,

I myself hope I am going to say / reason this correctly :

[...]

I already had an answer but scratched that because I ran stuck on it myself. This would be a better one :

With the assumption that both means of isolation - in the NOS1a internals and in the Intona, are the same (they isolate galvanically) the best option would be to DISconnect the black ground wire. Then all stays the same as how it was with NOS1a isolation only (and advice with that is to disconnect the wire). But, it would be fair to state that the situation can only be the same when the USB cable is plugged in.
I stop here, before I run stuck again. :nope:

Peter


PS: Before people may not understand what to do with the NOS1a : Bespoke black wire disconnected is the same as Switch #3 Up (Off). This, except for the two first customers who received a new NOS1a, where the Switch was not applied yet - but these know about that.

Ehm, just to be sure (it's cold here and my brain does not have enough calories to function fast haha)...

So yes, I leave the black wire disconnected in the NOS1 and I maintain the isolation of the USB card from the PC chassis - not matter if the Intona is between the PC and NOS1 or not ?

Alain :) 

Hope I do not push too hard - it's the best hardware component I could buy for the SQ ( ... the second best after Phasure NOS1 of course ;) ) It seems that there was no isolation at all until the Intona isolator was plugged in :no:. I guess that only NOS1 users can imagine what happened here after using he DAC with isolation :soundsgood: Too much to write down here ...

Georg

Very nice Georg !
Of course you realize that it is still your own fault ... :yes:

Best regards,
Peter

Alain, this is about about too few calories (but always drink sufficiently ;)) ... I just did not respond fully to *your* situation ...

What I recall of it, is at the moment we created the isolated Silverstone (ground of it not connected to the PC's chassis), the black wire was removed from its (screw) position as well. So indeed, the consistent situation for NOS1 (not a) would be :

Isolated Silverstone + loose black wire in NOS1;
or
Not Isolated Silverstone + connected black wire in NOS1.

Peter

Hi Peter,

Best wishes for 2016.

Please could you describe the situation/connection for the pc..silverstone..itona..black wire/switch3 for the nos1a?

Thanks.

Regards,
Johan

Hi Peter,

People who have the NOS 1a with Silverstone card (not isolated), what should they do, if they have the Intona now.

Best regards,

Arvind

Guys ... to be honest, I can't tell because I am not "interested". Maybe that is wrong, but I just never gave it a thought.

My Silverstone is isolated from the PC's chassis, and I have the black wire not connected. And an Intona in the chain.
That was so and it remained so because it didn't have my attention.

You could say : all is relative. So for example, I have my Silverstone isolated for some reason, which worked out. Arvind has his Silverstone NOT isolated, also for some reason which apparantly worked out for him. It would now be ILLEGAL if I'd try to overrule that with a "that is wrong for the Intona situation".

The ONLY thing wrong with the approach in general, is that I do not / did not revisit the whole situation. But hey ...
I can't tell it enough ... when I am happy with the sound and all, I am - contrary to most of you, I think - just happy and I will NOT experiment infinitely with things I could theoretically experiment with. Maybe when I am used to things and I am ready for something new *and* I have the time for it.

Something else maybe : It can't harm to try a few things yourelves. Also, it is not always so that the theoretical best situation also sounds the best (it should, but since when do we know about ALL the apects involved ? (haha)). I mean : I don't think there's any danger anywhere to try combinations with the (mind you) NOS1a.

Hope this helps ...
Peter

I did not like the sound of the Silverstone either isolated or not. Today I use one of the usb2 MB ports and switch three "up," meaning the NOS1a-75b black ground wire is "disconnected." Here Silverstone adds a flavor that renders the sound no longer neutral.

Regarding the disconnected black wire in the DAC, I was the one who originally reported waking up to booming noises one night after I disconnected the wire without using an isolated Silverstone card. BUT that was with the NOS1. Since the NOS1a, I have played as described, switch 3 up (black wire disconnected) and have never had a problem. Leaving switch 3 up takes a bunch of grain or noise out of the sound.

 It is important to use Peter's findings as a guide but, given that all systems and ears are necessarily different, some deviation is sometimes required.  :)

The Intona is here, and I've had a bit of a listen to it on the system in my home office, which includes a NOS1a and a nice Genelec active speaker system (my main hifi system is currently down).

Well what can I say that hasn't already been said?

The sound has just 'cleaned up'. So much more realistic. I've A/Bed a few times with a direct USB connection and the difference really is night and day.

This Intona is GREAT! And great value for money too, at less than EUR 300 (for the Industrial). I have absolutely no affiliation with Intona (or Phasure, or any manufacturer for that matter), but I'd say that you need to beg, borrow or steal EUR 300 to buy one of these babies.

HTH.

Mani.

Hi Mani,

nice to read.

Question: the price is excl. VAT?

Joachim

Put the Intona into the system today...nice sound, probably better than what I had before but I have barely used the system over the summer holidays so don't really have a good reference...will know in a couple of days time.

Anyway, I run my Silverstone USB card from two LPS: one for the 5V that goes down the USB cable and one to run the card itself (it does not draw power from the PCIe slot.  There must be something going on inside the Intona because it is now pulling 0.23A from one of the LPS whereas before the draw was negligible.  I have not read the blurb for the Intona but it must require a base load to do what it does...interesting.

Hi Joachim, yes the price I paid was EUR 289, excluding VAT and excluding the shipping cost. But really, it's still very good value for money in this hobby.

HTH.

Mani.

Well, it is an active device. Something with two FPGA's in there at least (which is what Intona tells) and undoubtedly a few more things.
And a led. :)
No, two.

Hi Guys,

Plugged in the Intona (industrial) a couple of days back & the sound is great. Hard to describe the improvement in words, seems like the noise floor is significantly lower. Besides I can go down to 0.05 SFS( earlier 0.15), which further improves the SQ.

Great find Peter. Thank you.

Best regards,

Arvind

Haha... I've been using my Intona in my office system to date, as my main system is down right now. But the Intona was always intended for my main system, which will be back up next week. I'm listening to music through my (home) office system right now and thought I'd better readjust without the Intona, so I took it out. Well, this lasted for about 10 seconds or so. I put the Intona back in, started listening to music again, went on-line immediately and ordered another Intona for my main system!

I'm all for practicing what one preaches ;-)

Mani.

Anyone else using Intona with W8--which is what I am doing at present.  I'll try this again, but the difference between just using the Clairixa cable, and using the Intona device with a cheap, short USB cable between PC and Intona is not very dramatic.  Waiting for OS HDD to try further optimization of SQ.

All my listening has been with W8 - I haven't touched W10 to date. Surprised that you're not hearing as big an improvement as I am, even with W8.

Mani.

And then to think that you both may originate from the same country. Haha.
But it is a wild guess. :)

I am from Double Dutch country and I must honestly say that the two times I revisited Windows 8 with the Intona, I was not aware of improvements BUT this is because W8 is so much off by now that I regard it unlistenable. This does NOT say a thing about either of you as - like I explained yesterday in another topic - it is all about "getting used to" and references;
Once upon a day we all (!) liked W7 SP1 ... try that now ... (ahum, maybe we really should).

It also can easily be about experience. So without listening next to each other in the same room, it may take years to learn what to listen for. But actually I just told about it. So, while no 2 weeks ago I liked 10074 for the very best over all of the OSes with my personal x years of experience in this environment (say same x years as Mani), today now that too is rendered unlistenable, to my ears. All it required was 10586.0 + Intona. And that combination came about x years later. Now I know forever why 10074 does not cut it (at all) and what to listen for to perceive that "badness".

So that difficult it actually is. Or that interesting.

Peter

I've learned that you do not realize you are missing anything in SQ until you hear how much better it can be.  Then in retrospect you realize the limitations of what you had before.

The universal experience with friends who listen to music at my home is that they never realized the limitations of their systems until they heard my system.  I tell them about XXHE and NOS 1a; they look at the Phasure box and say "strange looking!" to which I respond form follows function.

I expect W10 and XXHE 2.05 will be an improvement.  One reason for not hearing a big change with Intona could be that I still have music on a USB drive, and so things are not quite optimal.

I am interested however in what people are doing respect to everything downstream of the DAC.  Speakers could end up limiting any improvements on the DAC/player.   I'm now using the Linkwitz LX521 active speakers: dipole with 2 10" woofers, lower midrange, upper midrange and two tweeters.  Would love to compare these with the BD Design speakers, but there is no opportunity to hear the BD Design speaker here in San Francisco--or is there?

Hey briefremarks,

I thought I'd chime in even though it's a little of topic with a little insight on the BD Designs vs. Linkwitz Labs. I'm friends with the original principles of Audio Artistry which included Sigried Linkwitz(one of the other two was the best man at my wedding)

 I own the Beethoven Grands which were their pinnacle of open baffle(dipole) design, I now have BD Designs Orphean horns coupled with 3 high sensitivity 15" drivers per channel, my DIY version of the Orleno 2's minus the refinement of Peter and Berts slick Fletcher Munson compensation curve selection and the chip amps.(so read that as not quite as good but in the same family). To me frequency response and tonality is quite similar to the Linkwitz designs, but there is a dramatic difference in information retrieval and dynamics. I can't imagine going back to the Beethovens on a regular basis although I still enjoy them and they throw a huge soundstage.

I never liked the sound of horns, just like Paul(User name Scroobius) but read his posts under the speaker section here. You would never know your listening to BD horns without seeing them!

Ok back to the Itona! Loving it

Todd

Todd,

Very interesting indeed!  I'd like to chat with you separately if you can spare a moment about the BD Design speakers, as well as the Hypex NC400 amps.  I'm using chip amps at the moment from Audiosector.

I will try some more critical listening with and without the Intona and see if I can detect a difference.

BTW, Siegfried believes the LX521 is considerably better than the Orions (which they are), and the Grands (I've never heard them).

Ramesh

Ramesh, if we consider LA the SF area, then in LA you can listen to a pair of Orelo MKII's (further everything the same as you have) ...
And again that person could origine from the same country ...

:tongue2:
Peter

Yesterday I fitted a new pro Intona and sat down for some critical listening. I have to say I was a tad disappointed. Yes there was a difference but not of the OH WOW kind it was subtle worth having yes but not earth shattering.

Today I went up to see Mani and was surprised to hear just how much difference the Intona made in his system. More than mine for sure. That was until I got home a couple of hours ago.

What a difference a day makes. So tonight I am listening to some tracks I was listening to last night and the difference with Intona in and out of circuit is much bigger. It has to be burn in. Or did I have cotton wool in my ears?

But the comparison is not a fair one and the difference should be even bigger when I get my second Clarixa. That's because the impedance matching is ruined with Intona in circuit because of the long el cheapo usb cable from the PC to the Intona. Of course with the Intona out of circuit the Clarixa from PC to NOS1a provides good impedance matching.

Wow very surpised it is that I am.

I am listening to LCD Soundsystem just now and it is with big smile on my mush.

Cheers

Paul :)

Todd,

Have you tried the Regen with the Intona yet, if so, any impressions.  I ordered the Intona today.

Cheers,
Dave

Ramesh,
By coincidence I have the Linkwitz Orions.  I have friend who lives in Oakland who heard the Orelo MK II's in LA.  He is actually looking for speakers and hasn't pulled the trigger yet.  If you are interested I can put him in contact with you as I know he would be interested in hearing the LX521 and would share his experience in hearing the Orelo's.  Just a thought.
Cheers,
Dave 

Dave,

I would be happy to have your friend visit and listen to the LX521's with the XXHE and Phasure NOS 1a front end.  Send me a private message, and  we'll get this set up.

Ramesh

Todd
Really nice guys at Audio Artistry! I remember meeting all the guys involved at CES (1993?) when they first showed their Beethoven (?) design. Liked the design, but it was a little screechy in the upper midrange and I thought the 35w tube amp they were using was clipping with a Soprano singing. It so happened I had a 250w Plinius amp in my car, ready for review, and lent it to them for the rest of the show. Problem solved.
It was a mutual benefit however, because a resulting introduction through their mates led to Plinius' first distributor in USA! Who would have thought...
Cheers
Frank

Sorry for being off topic. But I was feeling a bit nostalgic and realize how small the collective HighEnd audio community is :)

Frank thanks for the kind words, they are great guys at Audio Artistry.

 I helped you carry that Plinius beast either from or to your car when we set up or at the end of show tear down!

Also, that was their first year there and the had their Dvorak entry level speaker in that room initially with some Cary tube amps until you came along!

Your the lead engineer and designer, aren't you?

Cheers,
Todd

Hey Dave,

I just wanted to let you know, I tried the Regen I in series after the Itona and no comparison the Itona alone is much better in every area.

Having the Itona in line with the Regen may have improved the sound of the Regen slightly, but let's just say you might see another Regen for sale on Computer Audiophile or maybe it will be used in my office system :smile:

Todd

No, just enthusiast, investor, and the sales manager. They were fun days - but 23 years ago! Trying to remember the name of the ex-pat Kiwi, associated with Audio Artistry, who I visited in San Paulo(?) after CES to listen to his full open baffle system. Perhaps you can PM me?

Nostalgic or not, you should have remembered whether that was at set up or tear down !
hahaha

WOW

We can call this a small community, or we can call it a small world. I mean, I seriously some times think that I have the privilege of knowing about all the great audio guys in the world; there are way less of us than we might think ...

Thank you all,
Peter

Received my Intona yesterday afternoon. It adds another level of delicacy, detail and smoothness. It seems I am now able to really hear how good a bad recording can sound while, at the same time, I hear why that recording is bad compared to a terrific recording. So, like never before, my brain goes in two directions at once with mediocre to bad recordings!

In the last three weeks I've had a complete revolution occur in my listening room: W10+RAM-OS+Intona. Mind blowing. Thanks Peter.

If it gets too much for you all, let me know !
:) :)

MY Audio Pc didn't see my DAC(NAD M51) after connected Intona (industrail) in between. What happened?

First, My PC can recognized DAC. Song can be played. but after a minute, the sound stopped. Then PC didn't recognized my DAC.
I tried to restart, shutdown... but it still happened the same.
What should i do?

Hi Naidiver,

It happens to me from time to time :) What I do is shut the dac OFF then turn it ON again.

Do not forget to remember that the Intona needs power to work, so no 5V cut from the PC...

Hope this helps.

Alain

Thankyou so much.
I will try it.

Hi,

I don't think that shutting off/on etc. is the best idea to solve this. It may sound nasty, but best is to contact Daniel from Intona, tell him your DAC and maye PC/Motherboard and ask whether he has a solution for you.
Daniel is very much willing to help out and if it does not work, you can send back the unit.

In your case there will be timing issues and they depend on "heat". What I would do in this situation is
a. try longer or shorter USB cables;
b. exchange the two cables (move the one in front to behind and the other way around);
c. try to put the unit in more open air so it stays more cool.

Ad c.
It is not really getting hot at all, but the electronics at work may warm it up 1 degree C (or a little more) and now the nano-second timing just changes a little and the unit stops working.

I hope you can solve it !
Peter

I never thought that it will extremely hard to use and not a kind of plug and play ready with trouble free.

Ohhhh. I shouldn't buy it. Really shouldn't buy it.

For somebody who plan to buy it, i think you should search on the Googles for intona, problem. Which i didn't do it.

Naidiver,

I was the very first one who bought the Intona (serial number 00001). Mine exhibited the same as yours. I thought "oh well".
Then a few months later I learned that I should have told Daniel from Intona. So I did and next I got a new one and this worked. I told so on this forum and now ...
Well, now you can look at your serial number what I "caused".

You should not worry and you can always just give it back and don't want a new one (this is Intona rules, not mine).
But ...
Best would be to get it going, because it REALLY improves the sound a LOT. Especially for realism.

Regards,
Peter

PS: I (Phasure) have no affiliation with Intona whatsoever.

Hi Naidiver,

I also had some issues with the Intona, it connected without any problem to the NOS1, but not to another DAC I have.
Daniel responds very quickly to any issue you might have, and yes you can return the unit should you decide so.

Hereby a quote from an email Daniel responded to me:
"All USB devices should work but some non-professional customers reported that they need to add a hub before or after the isolator. You may return the unit if it does not work for you."

In the end I indeed put a USB hub in between and I don't have any issues any more. Not ideal, but it still improves the sound considerably.

Regards,
Diede

Thank you so much for all your kind comments. Actually i don't want to return it. Since i have listened to it even just a minute before it stoped working. I know how much it improve the sound.

Now i have to find out the way,anyway that make it works.
I mailed to Intona 2times and now 2days pass, he still don't reply me yet.

Do you have Daniel direct or personal email? It would help.
Or any other way that you did and then it worked, please leave your comment.
Thanks

I sent you a private message ...

Peter

Hi. Peter.
Daniel sent me a new one which I received last week. after a week of burning in period, it sounds awesome with no problem at all.
i tried it with my regular pc, the SQ was far better than before using it but it's not kind of magic which will change the regular pc to a High-end pc. i can still hear some noise.

but for my Audiophile pc,Intona made me can't live without it.
It's so quite with my audiophile pc and Brooklyn DAC. It is almost deep black background even with regular quality of 16/44.1 format of typical pop song.

Awesome...
Now it is a new must have of me.

Thanks Daniel for kindly support. ^^

Um Joseph, Maybe you noticed that you managed to put up the first "for sale" in the forum. We don't do that here ...
Sorry !

Kind regards,
Peter