XXHighEnd

Yo,

Our "First Weekend Twip" has been a theoretical experiment, anticipating how Windows 7 might sound different to Windows 8 and how we can make Windows 8 sound the same as Windows 7 (this in brief). This worked quite well but with a small problem : Windows 7 doesn't sound the best. And again in brief : the "deep down earth" bass from Windows 7 may be nice for a while, but only for a short while. Main problems with it (IMO of course) :
- Too much of a same deep down earth sound throughout;
- The speed of the bass disappears.

What I tried now is by means of listening adjust the filter(s), though with a large dose of theory behind it (what change for "graping" will imply what kind of sound). No measurement has been in order.
I am sure this can be improved upon, but the 5 hours with this of this afternoon only ... next time more.

What you can (should) expect is a bass which goes exactly the other way around of the "First Weekend Twips". There is generally no deep down earth sound and instead it's the mere concert level bass type. The stiff one. The fast one. And a small warning maybe : this is now very profound when playing music which plays in the area concerned mainly (of course I am referring to "ambient").
If all is right all frequencies sound fairly even en no buzzing is there anywhere (the Weekend Twips sure had).

So here we go :

First off, grab your original settings without the Weekend Twips.

(http://www.stordiau.nl/Orelo/Want some Bass 01.png)
Change Filter-1 to what you see above (right side).

(http://www.stordiau.nl/Orelo/Want some Bass 02.png)
Change Filter-7 to what you see here.

(http://www.stordiau.nl/Orelo/Want some Bass 03.png)
Make a new Filter-13 and set it like you see.

(http://www.stordiau.nl/Orelo/Want some Bass 04.png)
This should be the result for the part concerned.

Watch out :
My gain (attenuation) of the orginal filter was -24.5dB while now you see (above screenshots) that it's at -23dB;
If you observe closely the whole graph from your original (desired) Gain setting, then you see the difference to be in the relationship with the left part of the graph (not shown here) and the part I showed above (blue graph). So, in my case the Gain changed with 1.75dB *more* in the left part (we did not change a thing about that) while the part we just changed is ~1.25dB *lower*. Observe where the roll off starts (say 120Hz) It is about this latter ! So this point should be 1.25dB lower than what you used and you should NOT adjust the Gain to make it as high as before at that point. It is also not so that you should leave the Gain unchanged. So :
You must set the Gain so that it is now 1.25dB lower at the point the roll-off starts.
Clear ?

The net result will be that the left part (not shown) rises with ~1.75dB while that right part dropped 1.25dB. So for "balance" there's a difference of 3dB between both ends of the spectrum.

If you now can hear that the crossover is not working well any more then let me know. I tell you because I explicitly did not want to do this by measurement. But it should be OK.
Also, *if* you can hear the crossover not being right, we can expect that it can be solved with some 40mm of time difference between horn and bass section; that 40mm "shift" is easily available by means of sliding the horn back- or forward.

And if it doesn't work at all, also please let me know in this topic.

Notice : This will work for Windows 8 only (I'm sure) and KnB is sailing on the high sees and didn't bring is speakers. So we are with 3 only.

Peter

Hey Peter, I wanted to give this a go today but the images are not downloading. I'll try again later in case it's just a temporary server problem.

Just wanted to let you know...

Mani.

Mani, I only see your message know, and you are right. I think I also know the cause, but I won't be able to solve it today. More time for this tomorrow.

:sorry:
Peter

I was wrong. My first quick attempt solved it.
So good to go again, but still apologies.

Peter

Thanks Peter. Will give it a go later and let you know what I think.

Mani.

Hey Peter, no matter how many times I've read this, I still can't understand it. Sorry. Could you take some screen shots of exactly what you mean please?

My gain is currently set to -25.5dB. I simply haven't adjusted this since I got my panels back from Bert. I've felt that the bass is a bit reticent but just never got around to adjusting the gain. Are you saying that I should adjust the gain first to get a balance I like, and then apply your latest settings?

I'm just not sure what I should do about the gain, before or after the changes in filters 1, 7 and 13.

Mani.

Total disaster!

As soon as I loaded the new filter I got some pretty weird noises coming out of the bass drivers for a few seconds after which there was a sort of 'white noise' sound coming out of them. Very stupidly I went right ahead and loaded the filter onto the other channel too, and again I got the weird noises from the bass drivers and then the 'white noise'. I switched both speakers off and on again and the 'white noise' went. But the bass sections of both speakers are now dead. The amps still work (I can test by switching to 'multi-channel' and they still make a thud on switch-on).

I think I've blown the DSP unit. Hopefully, it's only a fuse. Hopefully. I'll take a look tomorrow.

But maybe a warning to others to hold off making any changes to the DSP until we get to the bottom of what's happened. My suspicion is that it has something to do with applying the changes to 'Channel1/High' vs. 'Channel2/Low'. I followed Peter's screen shots and applied them to Channel2/Low.

Mani  :(

Mani,

For now : the means your changes applied to the speaker are relative to an inconsistent version of the DSP software itself. The story is longer, but tomorrow morning I will walk you through resetting the lot and next use something which is consistent. Sounds vague, but it is vague. So more tomorrow the soonest (watch your email).
Your warning towards others seems justified, so nothing wrong with that.

Peter

Hi Mani,
I was able to use the settings myself, for a week now.

The bass is great for electronic music. But for Jazz and classical it's a bit off balance.

Hope your settings are back up and speakers working again.

Regards,
VJ

Thanks for the reassurances guys. Actually when I went to bed it occurred to me that it couldn't be something too drastic - the DSP USB connection still works, so the DSD unit must still be powered up and working.

Peter, I noticed that my DSP software looked slightly different from your screenshots and was going to mention this. But then I thought it probably wouldn't make much difference.

Mani.

Mani, yes, it is different and this is unintentional. Whether this really can matter anywhere is unknown, and best is to use the settings with the 2.9 version with which I created the files. Notice, like for VJ, that when no problems are encountered all can stay as it is. Otherwise I have a new package ready + procedure to apply (which I just sent you by email, Mani).

We'll put the outcome of the "repair" in this topic.
Peter

Peter - I guess the filter profile for these Orelino's is going to differ from the MkII's to some extent as the 12" drivers cannot be driven so hard before distorting. So I need to think about some of these changes you are proposing. I am not at the stage where I want to make significant changes just yet until I get used to what I have now. Although I did take the 90hz notch out.

Paul

Paul,

I am sorry, but nothing (NOTHING) of this applies to you.

Also (and crucial) : I did not send you any files nor did I intend(ed) to at this moment, so you can take it that ALL you do will be wrong.
Do notice please that what's sent to you by Bert without description - can not come along with any description from me because there IS no description for that. So all you will be doing is "destructive" without you even knowing. Or not, which you also won't know.

So at this moment this is all up to you (and Bert).

Side note :
What happened has not been intentional, hence was for the very well meant good cause. IOW, the (dsp) file sent by Bert was sent for that cause, but the description on how to apply it was a bit forgotten. This, while I normally send the file including a step by step description with graduate learning curve (ask the others) which also explicitly is not sent right away (again, ask the others).

Remember, all has been for the good cause, but now I can not be part of your procedure.

One hint : put back that dip, or otherwise you are too ignorant. But up to you in the end.

General clarification :
Nobody should start changing things right away but "of course" you do ("of course", because you were given the opportunity - thus not your fault).
Racing accident, but it annoys me (I feel out of control).

Peter

Fine, Peter, but you should have sent instructions or an email or something - instead nothing! zippo! - I thought it was one of your tests "lets see if he can work this out?" ha ha.

You know I am an inveterate tweaker so for sure unless you say to the contrary and I see the posts you know what will happen!

Also I emailed you and pointed out the 90Hz notch had not been removed your response was confusingly "Nope" - that's fine but of course I then think "ah he forgot I will remove it myself".

So come on Peter - better communications required!!

No problem at all though - it was actually a bit fun working it out.

There is work needed here though. I have significant standing waves in the same places I always had them before (but reduced) so I think some room sweeps required and maybe then some filter tweaks.

Cheers

Paul

Yo Paul,


True, but I'm afraid all on your side. :yes: ;)


So did you read my previous post (about this) ? I guess not ...
I would have (later) but Bert just sent you those files.

From your email :


My answer indeed : Nope.
But I also told you I had no time to answer more, and you did not respond to that (hence did not ask what I mean). So, communicating ... :nea:
And for our both fun (hey, I always want to be right you know !), this was your very last email :


Ya ya ...


... which was explicitly talked through with Bert and we "decided" that neither of us will be able to explain to you what to exactly do, in the context of us both are still not much capable to do that well. Besides that I am not in favor of room correction in the first place (as you might well know) so ...
All up to you.

All I can say is : don't change the XOver area, and hopefully that is enough for you.

One more thing or better clarification :
When I said "this all does not apply to you" then this is about the response which is different from your speaker compared to the MKII. So, logical in itself, and not that we both like that, but it just is so. Nothing much to do about it ...
Well, sort of, because Bert tried a couple of things in that other preset, which is exactly the (very good cause and) why he sent you those files. But it is just a sort of "extreme other setting" measured in HIS room. So IMHHHO not the best to take for a base (that other setting does not take room response into account) but if it sounds better at this moment ... why not.
One more remark about this : be careful that what you perceive as "room modes" etc. is not just too much emphasized frequencies in certain areas, which is what Bert's setting (mind you) WILL be about. So here again, back to base is better, and build up from there is better.

And now, have fun !
Peter

Because I have to leave in a couple of minutes :

Mani's DSP is working again. Not completely as intended yet at this moment, but at least nothing is damaged or something.

Peter

No, not a blown DSP unit at all... just inconsistent DSP software by the look of things. Anyway, the filter changes in Peter's original post are now all applied. I'll write a more detailed post about my feelings on the SQ after I've had a prolonged listen, but early thoughts are very positive.

Mani.

PS. Massive thank you to Peter for taking up his Sunday morning to help me out via email.

First thoughts...

I really like the overall LF/MF/HF balance. A much smoother sound and easier to listen to. BUT...

... The transients seem lost - almost too smooth. Everything seems rounded. Reminds me a bit of the typical 'DSD sound' - very pleasant to listen to, but not 'real' sounding.

So overall, I'd like a mix of this and the original filter. If I had to choose between the two right now, it'd be a hard decision, but I'd probably go for the original filter because it draws me into the music more (even though it's harder on the ears).

Might moving the horn 40mm in or out help to 'sharpen' the sound? I'll give it a go later...

Mani.

Mani,

You are completely correct. But this is the effect of adding bass. Do notice though that both this and the BNC cable add to this, while the BNC cable inherently improves on the balance. Still it is my own idea - after listening to the combination of the both for 5 days now, that I (right now) will revert to the original setting (and the BNC cable) to see what happens with that.

So my general remark too, is that things get too soft from it (not because of "deep down earth bass" now) and that for some types of music it clearly sounds overdone.

With all this, try to keep in mind that if I myself would have been in lack of bass or anything, I would have changed things springing from my own ideas about it. All I do though is try to satisfy the (very soft), say, complaints about too few bass or whatever the lack is exactly.
Before listening to the original setting I tend to agree that it will be somewhere in the middle now, because the "more bass" surely has something.

Anyway, no real disagreement !

Regards,
Peter

Had a few hours listening with the new setting, first impression is very posetive, more bass/fuller sound witch I prefer.
At the same time I also installed 2 meter IC and new power cords (from juan) witch also most likely had some effect on the sound. Will change back to the original settings later to compare.

Changed back to original setting today.
Have been away a week (vacation in Paris) and after playing a few hours today, I experienced the sound a bit more wooly then before.

Think I prefer the original setting over the "want some bass" tweak. It is really a big difference. Will give it some time before changing to the WIN8 setting again.

Nice to have this possibility. Several preset might be needed maybe?? :)

Still with the original filter and now I find the bass heavy enough....  :) I did adjust the attenuation to -24db, think I will change to -24,5 Bass weight have just changed a lot from new. Have also started to adjust a little on position of the speakers.Had some toe in until now, changed to no toe and think I prefer that. (very big change....)

Edit; can also be that my ears are getting used to the new bass sound with no distortion...  :grazy:

Thank you for all your reports Kjell Narve.

I myself am 100% definitely back to the base settings. I just wrote a bit (in between the lines) about it in the BNC cable topic.

So I have been listening to the "more bass" from this topic here as long as the topic exists, and prior to that the other settings (DSP Twip topic), and now back to base, it is (indeed ???) like there's only MORE bass coming from that base (way more lean) setting. I guess we are able to dig out the quality of it, with the notice that the "more bass" is more bass alright, but not a better quality (IMHO).
But otherwise more things changed (see BNC topic) and it can well be that for me it is about that. Anyway, net I have more bass than ever before. And of the very best quality (this can be subjective of course).

Thanks !
Peter

Prefere the original setting. I am using low capasistance interconnects from juan, planning to test BNC IC, btw is that somthing Phasure can deliver? Would be nice to have exactly same type..  :)

I put some (Yes) answer in the BNC topic : Re: Cables with BNC Connectors/Adapters Are Generating A Superoir SQ (http://topic :http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=3026.msg32442#msg32442).

Peter