XXHighEnd

I'm starting my own thread to share my thoughts on my Orelo MkII speakers. Although I've had them for almost two weeks now, I wanted to wait a short while before posting my thoughts for 3 main reasons:
1. I wanted to give the speakers a little bit of time to burn-in
2. I wanted to form my impressions over multiple listening session over a period of time
3. I wanted to wait until Nick and Paul (Scoobius) had been over to take a listen and not influence their thoughts on the speakers beforehand.

I'd encourage Nick and Paul to share their thoughts in this thread. For my own part, I think I'll spread my thoughts over a number of posts.

Mani.

Initial Impressions

Right from the off, my initial impression of the Orelo speakers was positive. It was clear that these were going to be different (in a good way) to any other speakers I ever owned. Here's what I thought pretty much immediately:

1. No horn 'honk' from mid/high horn

Nada. Nothing. You close your eyes and, apart from the sheer mid/high dynamics on display before you, there's no way you'd think you're listening to a horn.

2. A clarity like no other

Only once you've heard a speaker with such low distortion from top to bottom do you realise that you've been listening to distortion for so long. But lack of distortion low down takes getting used to, especially on tracks that you're familiar with on other speakers.

3. A very lean low end

Just no bass punch whatsoever. The low frequencies were there alright, but just had no attack.

Point 3 improved considerably last Friday after I played a pink noise track continuously for a couple of hours. There's no doubt in my mind that the bass punch will just continue to improve with time. I'm going to be passing a 20Hz track through the speakers for prolonged periods in the next couple of days to see if I can accelerate this loosening-up process.

Mani.

Impressions after a couple of weeks

The more I listen to the speakers, the more impressed I have become. I mentioned in another thread that at some point you tend to transcend the usual hifi evaluation criteria. Even with their currently lean low end, there's a realism to the sound that just let's you relax and yet also pulls you in too. There's no question in my mind that these speakers are on a different level to any others I've ever owned.

A word about the lean low end. As I've mentioned, it's improving with time anyway. But there are 3 things that I've found have really helped:

1. Filling the wings with sand. This was a right royal PITA to do, with each of the 4 wings taking about 55Kg of sand... But I'm so glad I went ahead and did this. There was a slight 'hollowness' in the mid-bass with the wings unfilled. This totally disappeared with the wings filled.

2. The NOS1a. I haven't had an unmodified NOS1 here to compare, but compared to my Pacific Microsonics Model Two, the bass of the NOS1a is more prominent, and better in every way conceivable.

3. The Custom Filter in XX. This has been a godsend for me. So much more natural than AP in the HF, which surprisingly has such a big effect low down, giving the impression of an extended LF.

More thoughts later...

Mani.

Fletcher-Munson

I'll admit to having not played around with these curves as much as it seems VJ has. Within the first day or two I determined that I strongly preferred the most extreme F-M curve (S=3, D=3, H=1) for all the tracks I played. And I've left the settings there ever since. When Nick and Paul were here today, we didn't even discuss, let alone touch, the F-M settings.

Mani.

Hi Mani,
  Great review, mirrors my experience in many ways. For me bass opened up in 4 weeks. It seems present but not overwhelming at the same time. Also you will notice the high frequency, output is better over time.
   Although you don't have the old NOS -1 to compare, I can at present hear a bit of harshness, and a bit of unevenness in the high frequency (?XXHE/NOS-1).
  Also noticed the normalized playback is a bit more denser, energetic and a bit more harsher (however, not accurately volume matched to the non normalized playback). I hadn't normalized at the time of my prior review.
  All the good recordings are pretty much along the FM spectrum. It's on classical, live, and poor recordings I feel it has the best response. As soon as you feel something is not right, jump up and flip a switch or two or three ;) and see what happens.
  I'll try to post a example in the following days, provided I get the time...
   
    Cheers,
    VJ

Thanks VJ. I'll start playing with the F-M settings when I hear something that doesn't sound right.

The only thing I've noticed with my current extreme F-M setting is that some vocals and lead instruments can sound a little recessed. But I really like this and find that on too many recordings, the lead vocals/instruments are way too prominent. I mean, just listen to the Mark Wilder mastered 1997 versions of 'Kind of Blue' and 'Time Out'. They are terrible. Unlistenable. The trumpets/saxophones blast out whilst the rhythm sections are barely audible. If you listen to earlier versions of these (on CD or vinyl) there's a much better balance to the sound. Interestingly, on the recent Mark Wilder 24/192 release of KoB, the balance is identical to the earlier versions. Much, much better. Oh, and whilst I'm on it, I wasn't very impressed with this 24/192 version of KoB when I first heard it. But with the Orelos (and NOS1a, and Custom filter) it now sounds very, very good.

Mani.

Thanks to Satti & Mani for their excellent hospitality on a fine day yesterday Nick and I had a great (and illuminating) day.

First of all immediate impressions - OH BOY the Orello Mk II's are BIG the pictures that Mani posted (and indeed those that Nick took yesterday) are very misleading looking much smaller than in real life.

First NOS1a - this is a BIG improvement on NOS1. I took Mani's other NOS1 (with Dexa) back and so we were able to compare NOS1 with NOS1a. I won't say any more about the 1a because others have covered it elsewhere but NOS1a is special - very special.

And now on to Orello MkII. This was the first time that I have heard a horn (Orphean) that sounds right to my ears. But that is with NOS1a - going back to NOS1 it was not so good and many of the "problems" I always had with horns again became apparent. It is clear that this horn implementation is special and starts to fulfill what I always hoped a horn could do also maybe a horn to some extent is incredibly revealing of the input. BUT there are a couple of downsides first is that they did not quite sound as "sweet" and smooth as I would like. Singing voices sounded fantastic but ultimately not quite smooth enough. HOWEVER that is almost certainly because they need more running in and I think that they will settle down over the coming weeks. Before I move on though we were sitting quite close to the horns (8' ish) and I would prefer to be further away to reduce that "in your face" impression of the horns and to get a more real life perspective. But maybe that is just a personal thing.

Now on to the bass. First the bad news immediately it was clear that just now Mani's set up is bass light - very bass light. We played tracks with bass lines that I know very well and they were almost completely missing. It sounded as though nothing was happening in the 35 - 100Hz region. I stood behind and in front of the Orello's and there seemed to be very little difference in bass - and I know that is not right. It has to be that much more running in is needed because there is a long way to go to get bass that properly underpins the music.

But now the good news - we played a track well known to both Nick & I with much percussion and electronic sounds. Apart from missing bass lines I have never heard a speaker come close to the Orello for speed accuracy and punch - a big step towards how it should sound live and very impressive.

There is one thing I would have to "play with" in Mani's set up. He uses a very long balanced i/c (14 meters was it Mani?). My system is extremely sensitive to i/c's and if it were me I would have to start off with a short i/c of known construction (to me) just to find out if was impacting the sound. I don't know if that i/c is impacting performance but for me I would have to find out.

So overall very interesting both Nick and I were agreed that we had a glimpse of a sound quality that potentially could be a big step towards live sound. But I suspect that Mani's system is at the start of the 'running curve' and there is a long way to go.

Cheers

Paul

Hi Mani,

I know it will sound heretic, but have you tried with the PM 2 to compare ?

And like Paul suggested, maybe with shorter cables ?

I did once a test with my PC and NOS1 in another room, with XLR cables. I don't know what took me to buy these extra long cables (75 feet !) and with a higher inductance (not good) than the ones you have (can't recall what it was, but it was high). The sound was "grey". That was all for my experience and I quickly moved the PC and NOS1 back where they were before...

Alain

Well, I did as much due diligence as possible before deciding to put the cables under my floorboards and moving the NOS1(a) into my basement 10m away. There are three reasons why I'm confident these 10m cables, that I bought through Juan, are not playing any part in how the Orelos are currently performing:

1. With my previous setup (BD-Design amps and Celestion SL600s speakers), I tried these cables in the listening room alongside a bunch of other 1m cables. The 10m cables [at least] matched my 1m anti-cables in overall SQ, and importantly showed pretty much the same HF response and transparency.

2. Indeed, the 10m cables are transparent enough to easily show any changes in XX filters, different DACs, etc.

3. No one who has heard my Orelos has complained about a lack of HF. And it's there, surely, that the audible effects, if any, of long cables would be most noticeable.

In any event, I love having a listening room totally uncluttered with equipment and gear. So the NOS1a is definitely staying where it is. If in the future I feel something is lacking sound-wise, I may well try another pair of 10m cables. But right now, I have absolutely no inclination to.


Alain, I used the PM2 for a couple of days with the Orelos until the NOS1a arrived back. Let's just say that there's no way I'd even think about replacing the NOS1a with the PM2. There may well actually be more LF weight with the PM2, just like there is with my non-upgraded NOS1, against the NOS1a. But it's clear to me that this is a case of quantity over quality.

Contemplating using any DAC instead of a NOS1a is about as heretical a suggestion as can imagine in hifi  :prankster:

Mani.

Hi Mani,

I was quite sure that you experimented quite a few things before installing everything, but your explanations are priceless for those who would not ask these questions but would wonder :)

The NOS1 (will be with an "a" when Peter will ask me to send it) is my reference, so I know what you mean. That was why I put the word "heretic" - I even hesitated before writing my questions :)

And I know I am in very good company here, with "our family", either from XXHE, the NOS1 and/or the two of them. Be assured that I heavily rely on what I read here (and appreciate) :)

...And I consider that you are a lucky man to have such wonderful speakers  :yes:

Regards,

alain
Edit: I replaced "gifted" with "lucky man" - my bad (English is still a work in progress for me)

Hi Paul,

The other day I shouted "Houston !" because there's an unexpected phenomenon going on : everybody is lacking the reference;

I know, we could easily stick for now to the "must break-in" but I had rather that we all start to realize what we listenED to. But how to do such a thing ...

I will try to put it the most mildly and also most honestly to my own knowledge, with the explicit remark that I myself have an experience of close to a year by now;

In that year I learned which recordings do well on the low end and which fail. This latter group is fairly easy to lay out : all what is high passed for LP. And this is about all of them.
So this is where it starts; experience.

But the experience goes along with the ability to "hear" or understand what is OK and what is not. I will try to give a more technical example :
What I saw is that anything which was high passed for LP does not contain LF under ~30Hz. We'd say that this is not too bad, because there is nothing much playing under there anyway (which in itself is totally wrong, but not of interest for now). But what does it mean - high passed so that nothing under 30Hz shows ? well, assumed that any filtering can't have been too steep, think about a start of roll off at 60Hz which is 3dB down at 30Hz. But think steeper if you like and start at 60 means -6dB at 30Hz. Or more steep ... it all doesn't matter much. What does matter though is where the roll off starts and when steepness is to be avoided (ringing) then make 120Hz as the start of the filter.
Understand where I am going ?

No, I don't think so.

Any regular speaker we run into, will have its low end at the same 30Hz. Maybe a few Hz lower. But because this is mechanical limitations (there is some more to it but with same result) this implies actually heavy distortion. This in itself means that when something is playing at say 32Hz which is possible (low E electric bass or whatever) that this right away expresses way loud at 64Hz. And you won't know the difference because of the nature of the guitar (which is quite square to begin with - double bass the same - kick drum the same - etc.). 64Hz is also better audible for us than 32Hz.
What we are used to is hearing that 64Hz distortion which just looks like a harmonic (2nd) of 32Hz.

Two things happen at the same time :
1. Because of the high pass the 32Hz is way down compared to original;
2. Because the speaker itself does not distort you don't hear the 64Hz you are used to.
So ?
So you hear a faint bass.

How do we solve that ? Easy, add e.g. 12dB of bass "somewhere". And this is the point - we can not do that because we'd have to know the high pass filter function and we don't. Besides, this differs per recording (say pressing) of course. But IF we'd manage, then all is wrong.
It is wrong because also quite many albums exist which were not high passed. To me they sound 100% OK to my ears, so to me they will sound 200% wrong when 12dB of bass would be added. This is two folded again :
1. The bass will be way too loud to begin with;
2. Distortion will be my share.

#2 is odd and carries an unexpected effect;
My 30Hz story from above applies. Only this time it plays at 20Hz. Why ? well, because the speaker can do it. But it wasn't made to be 12dB louder compared to the rest of the spectrum (that 88dBSPL reference). So now some ambient roll (your punch) comes along, but 40Hz "square" is made of it. How will that sound ? No idea, but undoubtedly not real (how can it, whilst 20Hz should be inaudible while 40Hz is not inaudible at all).

My "Houston !" sprung from the acknowledgement that I am the only one as of now with the experience on what recordings "work" regarding this and which do not. You guys just don't know about the whole phenomenon (btw no matter I keep on referring to The Wall in MSFL vs. normal).

The "Houston !" also - and maybe mainly - refers to it being nice that I learned to live with this all very well, but that this does not imply you can. Or at least not out of the box. But maybe even never for the greatest satisfaction.

The theoretical solution, and I think I ancounced that already somewhere, is a somewhat higher bass output (say 2.5dB) but with a cutoff (start point) at 30Hz.
I never tried it (and would not like it either I think) but now rolled off high pass is pumped up (could even go progressively to counteract the roll off in the other direction) but won't go wrong in the really low frequencies (like under 27Hz).
But no ambiance any more either.

And that's the whole point - it is the recordings. Not that *I* knew that a year ago ...


Another for me funny thing is that nobody asked for more bass. You can (not) read it in the forum and have my guarantee that it was not asked off line as well. So somehow (I think) we feel it is not the solution. It suits us actually, but also feel that something is not right.
I can keep on repeating it forever : feel your woofers. Why ? because you will learn from it so much. An example (without really knowing !) could be Hot Chocolate - Emily. Nice bass ? no - no bass at all. Still we would swear that this is bass. But if it was the woofers should move (under 240Hz).

I recall handing VJ a track after similar remarks as the text in your quote imply Paul; VJ gave me his track (with just no bass in it at all except when played on a heavily distorting boom-box) and I have him one of mine. The accompanying text went like "starts with pure sine of something like 28Hz and further down the line it gets square and you will perceive that as lower picthed" (which it is not, because just on/off actually). That cured a few things (but VJ may confirm himself - or not) because it shows what albums it actually needs.
Sadly this does NOT tell that we should be satisfied with all our albums which sounded nicely bassy but now do not much any more.

A maybe better example :
I went through 20 or so percussion albums I have in a gallery somewhere (I have many more, but these were grouped as such). NONE of them worked. Very very easy to blame the system. But what's not there is not there and try to bring that back and other anomalies occur.
Remember the hard time in finding a good drumming recording ? that ended with that Paul Klipsch from 1953 or whatever long year ago; it was created for download from master tape only a few years back. *That* works.

Finding the recordings (pressings) which were not high passed and still are OK is not an easy task. They'd have to be from beyond the LP era which makes them subjective to compression right away (because now digital era).

I will stop here for a while, but do acknowledge some "Houston !" for sure. But I will also make a filter which hopefully works for the very better assumed no large orchestras are played (because there goes the ambiance).
If only nobody thinks the speaker is not capable. You don't want to know ...

Or ?

Peter

Peter, some thoughts on your post above later, but for now...

I've just run a series of 1/3 octave band tracks (ripped from the MFSL 'Soundcheck' CD), from 20Hz up to 20KHz. It's clear that there is a 'suck-out' between ~40Hz and ~80Hz in my room. I've never noticed this before. The 20Hz, 25Hz and 31.5Hz tracks show plenty of energy (the 20Hz can hardly be heard, but it definitely energizes the room). There is a significant drop in energy on the 40Hz, 50Hz, 60Hz and 80Hz tracks. The energy starts returning on the 100Hz track.

The speakers no doubt need more burn-in, but maybe there's more to my currently lean low end? Any thoughts anyone?

Mani.

Ah, there's no question I'm a lucky man with life in general... speakers included. But we're all lucky to be part of probably the best audio community on the planet.

Mani.

Mani, don't laugh or cry ...


Did you feel the woofers ?
Anyway, tell me.

Regards,
Peter

Peter, just a suggestion ? Maybe send to Mani a file consisting of a drum session that you use to make comparisons on your system ?

Alain

Hi,

Bass is a very special story.

I owned the von Schweickert speakers “VR-5 Anniversary” a couple of years ago, and it was nearly impossible for me to get a satisfying bass in my room, and I moved the speakers for at least one month around in my room

I do believe Mani has to make some “body building exercises” with the movements of the speakers to get the right position for a good bass.

Joachim

I found this link:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=19720.0

OK, just done this. Not sure what I'm 'feeling' for but I set the volume so that the bass drivers were moving ~2-3mm p-p at 20Hz. Well, I could feel vibrations easily all the way up to 100Hz (and beyond). But the driver excursion diminished with increasing frequency. Certainly there was no sense that there were more vibrations at 100Hz than say 63Hz.

My room dimensions are 5.5m x 4.3m x 3.2m. Could there be some sort of cancellation effect going on around 55Hz (300/5.5)?

Mani.

Alain, you mean the recording of Peter playing the drums? No way. I don't care how good the sound quality is... the drumming is cr*p.

Now, a new recording of Paul (Peter's son) playing the drums... oh yes please.

Mani.

Haha. My Orelos are now >150Kg each. Rather than trying to move them, I'd prefer to simply apply some DSP between 40Hz-80Hz. Should be possible with the way the Orelos are designed - easy to apply using a laptop, and much easier on my back...

Mani.

Ha ha ;) I mean Paul yes ;)

Alain

343/5.5 = 62.36 (careful with length regarding your book shelves).

And if you like :

343/4.3 = 79.76 (try toeing out somewhat).


This can already be because the frequencies will be (way) more distinct now. Keep in mind, for the lower frequencies the distortion products are soon better audible than the fundamental and anyway all mix. For example, if 40Hz cancels out (and it always did) then 80Hz does not while 80Hz easily also plays because of distortion. Today though this 80Hz is not there.
For fun play the tracks so loud that 25Hz sounds higher pitched than 30Hz (namely 50Hz). Then at least you know what I mean with distortion being better audible than the fundamental. You can also totally easily see then how no cancelled 25Hz would be audible ever (for its cancellation effect).

Btw, at this moment I am not saying that you suffer from (room) cancellation because you mention a tad too many frequencies to my likings. Adding also plays a role (so now think upside down) and that needs walking around the room.
But maybe start with moving the speaker towards yoo with 20cm or so and see what happens. Or backward if forward can't be justified (but this is more challenging in general).

Peter

Hi Peter,


I understand what you are saying and because of that I was expecting to hear something different in the bass than I am used to but I would be interested in hearing Nick's opinion because his view was that when he listened to the Mk II's at your place there was much more weight to the sound.

Cheers

Paul

Hey Paul, Nick didn't hear the Orelo MkII speakers at Peter's place. He listened to the Orelino speakers. But you're right in that he felt the Orelino speakers, even with their 3x 12" bass drivers (as opposed to the 3x 15" drivers in the Orelos), had no issues with lean LF.

Mani.

Hi,

I though I would also post impressions of listening to Mani’s new speakers and NOS1a on Sunday.
Thank you very much to Mani and his family for such lovely hospitality and putting up with Myself and Paul discussing hi-fi all afternoon  :)

I have heard Orelo MkI (I think ???) with 12 inch bass drivers at Peters prior to listening to Mani’s new Orelo MkIIs, it was however my first time listening to a NOS1a  and to Peters new Arc prediction filter. So lots of interesting components to listen to.

My comments are based on listening to Manis Orelos and NOS1a with very few hours run in on either, I guess the new Arc prediction software filter was run in fully however (haha). This in mind we all recognised on the day that there will be very significant changes in sound quality to come. What a starting point to the run in process though, right from the first bars with the Orelos and NOS1a you know your listening to something very special. The speed, dynamic weight and continuous spectrum of tone reproduced presents a supremely realistic and “live” level of performance. Detail is absolutely unbelievable however it’s also fully “in the context” of the music so not at all false, overblown or picked out un-naturally in a particular area.

Personally I also felt the bass response was indeed light in weight and as a consequence mids were also a little thinner than you would want and a little down on warmth. Having heard Peters Orelo MK1s I however am very confident that this is down to nothing more than the need to run in Mani’s speakers (possible the long interconnects might play a part as well ?). At Peters there was plenty of bottom end in Peters very large listening room and I understand that the 15 inch drivers and final tweaking of the crossovers in the Orelo MKIIs have if anything made the bottom end even stronger than it was when I heard Peters system. So in this respect I fully expect to hear a perfectly balanced bass response if I am lucky enough to visit Mani when he has the speakers run in.

The NOS1a also left big and positive impression. We were able to compare it with Mani’s NOS1 (with USB interface clock and capacitor tweaks). The NOS1a takes reduction of “harshness” to a whole new level . It is fluid, dynamic and has you immediately relaxing into the performance. With the NOS1 with caps there was a slightly greater tonal solidity that was attractive produced startling real grand piano. The NOS1 with caps had almost intrusive harshness compared with the NOS1a. Just to be clear I would take the NOS1a every time and we all felt that way.

The new arc prediction filter made a very positive contribution too. We played standard and new arc prediction back to back. I would say that the new filter made mids and highs sound less reproduced and more natural.

I’m really looking forwards to getting my NOS upgraded to “a” spec and using new Arc prediction. I think both look as though they do great things for reproduction through high sensitivity speakers where any imperfection in the source can end up writ large across the music.

A great day and a fantastic system Mani , many thanks for having me over to listen.

Kind regards,

Nick.

Hey Nick, thanks for chiming in... and for the kind words.

But why is it that you and Paul have such difficulties with the nomenclature of the BD-Design range of speakers? There are only 3 after all!:

1. Orelo MkI (4x 15" bass drivers)
2. Orelino (3x 12" bass drivers) - these are what you listened to at Peter's place
3. Orelo MkII (3x 15" bass drivers)

I think actually, only the last two are commercially available - I remember Bert saying that the Orelo MkI speakers were prototypes really only made for him.

Mani.

Thank you very much Nick (and Paul no different btw).
But OK, let's say I may be a bit too quick on blaming things other than breaking in. It *is* true that it needs that, really.
So let me put some other weight on the scale - something I am only just thinking of :

By the end of April VJ's speakers went out. I recall that in the 3 weeks prior to that I have been lowering the bass output by 1dB. But when did I receive mine ? March 2 (2014).
Of course it took me quite some time to properly tune them in the first place. But I registered the dates. Last adjustment was on April 8 (the 1dB lower). I never touched anything since.
Possibly this tells that one month of breaking-in is needed (each day a couple of hours BUT with really low frequencies).

And before you think "what the heck is 1dB ?" well, the difference between coloured sound and correct sound. But of course also the difference between too lean and OK (breaking in).

This is a quite different response, but like with the NOS1 at first, I never noticed the breaking in. Only when compared afterwards with others (new). This is similar ...

Peter

Hey Mani,

You forgot one variant :

4. Orelo MkII (but with 4x 15" bass drivers) with 1 x 15" mounted above the horn. And wow would that be BIG

Ha ha

Paul

Ha ha ? No ...

4. Orelo MKII with another bass section on top. That counts 6x 15".

:yes:
Peter

Mani,
Give it an additional 2weeks, low end is going to open up. Btw dipole bass/open baffle bass is different than boxed bass. Non-audible vs audible distortion.
VJ

The rear of the speakers were originally 50-60cm from the wall. I've now moved them closer to the wall (moving further out was just out of the question in my reasonably small room). They are now 30-40cm away from the wall. Surprisingly I can hear no real difference in the LF. I can't go any further back because I have a metal radiator (always switched off, even in winter) immediately behind the left speaker and I don't want the magnets too close to this.

Oh, and the speakers were surprisingly easy to move - the great advantage of felt feet on a wooden floor.


Hey Peter, just a quick thought...

One of the effects of filling the wings with sand was to tighten up the LF considerably... and perhaps lower the overall LF output slightly? I'm assuming you were tuning the speakers with hollow wings. Could it be that my LF output is now too low due to the filled wings?

In any event, something that no-one has yet talked about is the LF DSP. Weren't we going to be exploring all sorts of options and user configurations here?

Anyway, irrespective of your response, I don't intend to do anything for another few weeks at least... need to let the drivers loosen up more.

Mani.

Sure Mani, that filling will theoretically have shifted the LF response more upwards. Not that I thought about that ...
But it is very logical of course; if your finding is that the LF response went more tight of it, it can only mean that less vibrations occur and those vibrations imply LF again (but is distortion).
And not that I feel anything vibrate without the filling, but I suppose your findings are just those. So ...

Ok ...


Ok ...
:)

Peter


PS: And good that you did not perceive any additional negatives about shifting them more to the back wall. Quite crazy eh ?

Hey Mani,

This morning I woke up with thoughts of how to approach this all, still thinking "there is more". But your 10m interlinks kept buzzing through my head and I took up the idea of asking you to try normal short ones.

30 minutes later I slowly drove my car down the driveway seeing the peaceful view on my left, and then I knew ...

You use 10 meters of "single ended" interlinks.

Yep, and nobody saw it - me neither.

All may look like balanced but it really is not because the amps at the other end are not; the provision for XLR is only there because people may have the (expensive) XLR interlinks so they can keep on using it, but that is really all.
So nothing is balanced and now 10 meters is ... out of line ?

I thus wanted to ask you anyway to try normal lengths (like 2m) before any next other trials, so please do. But it is not a matter of trying any more I'm afraid. But for the good cause now so I'm sure you won't object much.

Peter

Hey Peter, I'll bring the PC and NOS1a back into the room and try with short ICs. Should be able to try this today...

Mani.

OK, PC and NOS1a back in listening room. I'm using 2m ICs and a 1m USB cable.

I'm not sure if the LF level has increased. But I think the sound overall is slightly cleaner with better dynamics.

But really so much is now different (totally different make of ICs, regular house AC mains vs. dedicated, vibrations from room, etc) that it's hard to make any definitive conclusions. My strong suspicion is that most of the change in sound is down to the change in AC power.

Will be back after I've tried a few things...

Mani.

Mani, maybe premature, but I wonder why this particular change. I mean, yes I can imagine that this is "necessary" now, but this would imply that previously (say 6 months ago) you also used the normal house AC ... which I can't believe.

Again, I can imagine that it is not easy to change back to the well fashioned set up, and I also don't see how suddenly your PC had to go upstairs while it has always been in the basement.
Btw, I only now read in your pevious post "PC and". If that had occurred to me earlier I would have made a remark about it right away. So apologies I did not see it.

But of course you should not allow apples and oranges (you knew that) - already not for psychological/placebo reasons (harder to think of in advance).

But you are trying a few things ... ;)
Peter

Yep, in an ideal world I would keep things as consistent as possible and only change one thing at a time. But it's not so easy now.

For example, after deciding that only the speakers would sit in the main room, I only fed two AC cables from my dedicated mains in the basement through to the main room. At the moment they have IEC plugs on each. But I need at least 5 AC cables with IEC plugs now (with the PC and NOS1a in the room). So yes, I could take off an IEC plug from one of the cables and fit a 5-way block instead, but this takes time and I really need to be sure that it's worth the effort before I do this. And I cannot just fed a few more cables up without taking the floorboards up again... not going to happen!

But I've got another idea first...

Mani.

OK, I'm pretty certain that the 10m ICs I was using originally have no adverse effect on the LF performance whatsoever.

I have a PurePower 2000i unit - this is an AC regenerator with battery pack (actually a glorified UPS). Working purely in battery mode (input AC cable physically disconnected, so floated earth), the sound is strikingly similar to that with my dedicated AC mains. Certainly there is no obvious increase in LF energy or extension. (Running the system from the house AC mains or the PurePower in 'regenerator mode' adds a little more 'brilliance' and 'shine' to the sound. Although quite pleasing on the ear, this takes the balance between LF and MF/HF even further away from what I want.)

However, I still think there is a slight increase in dynamics overall with the PC and NOS1a in the room (irrespective of how the system is powered). I'm assuming that this can only be down to shorter ICs (2m vs. 10m) and/or room vibrations. I'm going to put everything back in its original place in the basement and take another listen.

Will be back...

Mani.

Mani,

I am dead sure I confused you quite a bit, but the remark about the interlinks being too long wasn't even related to the LF - no matter how logical it is/was to think so. Such long interlinks - not balanced - are just not allowed at all (eh, period ?).

I can take it a step further though by referring to your "balance" (and worse now). So while I am preparing to help out with the better LF (still softly assumed this is just needed outside of the breaking-in) it is of no use to do that when first something else is wrong. So it is only that I was hinted at your long interlinks in the first place that might be related to LF issues and which thus has to be out of the way (just test it) but when I next thought about "this is not balanced at all" it just *has* to be out of the way first.
Well, unless you want sub-optimal sound - this is up to you of course.

But please, go find ONE source which will admit that such long interlinks are even remotely OK *when not balanced*. It will be one big pile of (picked up) noise in the first place. And no, this time not audible accidentally (ha).
It is only so stupid that nobody saw it - and especially me.

Grr
Peter

Ah OK Peter. In that case I'll start thinking seriously about how to get the NOS1a back into the room permanently.

The reason I brought the PC up from the basement was because I'm currently using a 3.5m USB cable. 6 months ago when the NOS1 (not "a") was in the room, I was having to use a 5m USB cable (this is the minimum length I can get away with easily).  I was told by Pat (at AR-T) that this is simply too long and that the max I should be using for USB is 3.5m.

In an ideal world, I'd really like to keep the PC in the basement (it really is 'Le Monster') and have only the NOS1a in the room with the speakers. Peter do you have any thoughts on using a 5m USB cable with the NOS1a?

Mani.

Mani, as how it ever was 7 meters works. But I never checked that again. No reasons that anything will have changed though.

It is completely correct that a longer cable may (or even will)imply reflections and more jitter on the USB link, but the time this influences is behind us. Unless of course sheer errors occur but you can see that in the Control Panel.

But do it by steps. You (or Pat) are always allowed to be correct in the end.
And notice that only 3 months ago I would have said the same, but ony from the noise = audio jitter point of view. And not so many talk about *that* (and not even Pat I'd say).
But try it. And also think it over carefully. I mean, it took you long enough to sort out your current set up, and the more stupid it is that at least I did not see it. Ok, this has been the last time I mentioned this. :)

Peter

PS: Another thing about this, and not really meant to additionally confuse (but it will) : The 10m is allowed to be not detremintal *if* you only listen to it through a well broken in mid/high. And I certainly know how much that is still going to differ. So what now will be fairly grey (up to unlisteable) will be sprankling after a month or so. And I don't think you can really judge without that happening first. One conclusion of this moment could be fair though : for the LF it doesn't matter much. So we can proceed with that part I think.

Thanks Peter.


I'd like to keep an eye on errors if possible. But Unattended kills the Phasure USB Control Panel. Is there a way of keeping it active, maybe by listing it in the 'Keep this service' box in the XX settings area? If so, what should I put in there?

Mani.

In the Keep Processes list :

(phasurenoscpl)

But this looks overdone to me. It is sufficient to play a couple of minutes in Attended and watch it from there.
We ourselves use 20 minutes to judge all to be OK.

If you see errors right at the start of playback - don't worry about those. After that all should remain "stable" (no change).

Peter

Thanks Peter. I'll just use Attended - of course, it makes no difference in SQ with the NOS1a  :)

Mani.

It is not even about that. Just checking for errors for a few minutes is enough - that's all.

We will take on a few things through email from here. So if it gets quiet ...
(then Mani is probably repairing his windows)

No, not repairing my windows (hardware or software  :prankster:), but really enjoying the sound now. I've just increased the output of the LF by 2dB (takes just seconds to do via USB cable into speakers) and...

... WOW!!!

This is bass like I've never heard before. (Nick/Paul, all the criticisms that we all had have totally disappeared. On a good dance track, my chest is thumped to pieces.) I'm going to keep things like this for a while, but may reduce it by 1dB if I feel it's too overwhelming.

Oh, I'm really, really happy now.  :NY01: :NY02:

Mani.

Hahaha, that was quick. But see what 2dB does ? apparantly ALL (but told you).

Now in a couple of hours we will be making 1.5dB of that - at least for trying and because that is what I landed at.

Nice Mani ...
Peter

Hey Mani - I will be impressed if Satti is impressed!!!!

Let me know how that goes!!!

Paul

I've just played Satty her favourite Bhangra track and she's more than impressed.

Happy household... :friends:

Mani.

Great stuff, I can only imagine how good the sound must be now !

Nick.

Mani - I need to see something in writing - some kind of acceptance certificate.

Paul

Yep, I think the LF is just a little too prominent at +2dB. But at least it's 'clean' LF, so even though it needs taking down by 0.5dB, it still doesn't interfere with the enjoyment of the music in any way.

Mani.

Congratulation Mani! Have been reading your posts with great interest, thanks for sharing.

did you end up using the 10 meter xlr? I am using a 5 meter xlr from Juan (on the newly received Orleo) nothing else have been tested so far.

 :)

Hi,

This is first time I post after bump across Phasure dac from Audiogon few days ago. Since then I follow with great interest but still lagging far behind with so much info and very difficult to absorb. I also feel that sometimes Peter is talking in riddles. So I haven't understand should I get full monty phasure of pc and dac together or just dac is enough.

Anyway, could any of you kind enough to record properly how it sound with Orelo MKII speakers at your room with good music and base track, and post it here for us to download to listen with accurate headphones? Because the combination of xxxHighEnd, dac and active speakers really intrigue me a lot and I wish I could hear how it sound and how good it is with low distortion claim.  :)

Thank you.

lateboomer, hi there.

Yes, I am talking in riddles often for sure. Not always on purpose, but some times yes.


but this too seems a riddle. It's probably (my) English, but "download to listen with headphones" ?

Otherwise warm welcome here !
Peter

PS: Maybe I'll move this to a separate topic later, wo watch out for that.

Haha, thank you for pointing out my low grasp of English. Anyway, what I meant is I hope you guys could post some sample music how Orelo MkII sound in your music room like those what you can see at youtube at here. (video is not required)

Then I will try to listen to it through more accurate headphones rather than computer speakers to asses the sound.

Hope it clear now. :)

Allow me to send you an email ... ;)

Update :

I know what this is about now. Actually what it tells, but not so much expected for us :

Record the sound from the speakers (from the sweet spot) and post it. The reason is a longer story, but quite justified ...

As far as I can tell only Mani will have the proper equipment ... and me.
I will do it anyway but later it may appear that more of this is "required" since this is also about room response (to sum it up very roughly). But let me have an attempt first ...

Regards,
Peter

Arigato. Thank you very much :)

At least this is not fine wine or exotic food, which the only way to find out is to taste it.

I haven't had much time to play around with things lately, but will be testing a few interconnects (various lengths and models) this week. Will let you know how I get on...

Mani.

Just a quick update on this...

I've finally settled for an increase of 1.7dB in the LF. Doesn't sound like much, but it totally changes the impact the music has. Bass lines and percussion really start driving the music forward. After 30-60 minutes of listening I realise that my neck muscles are hurting through all the involuntary head jiving.

But the bass 'quality' still takes getting used to. It's so lean and fast with absolutely no artificial 'bloom/fat' whatsoever. This is great from a rhythm perspective, but from a tonal perspective, it's difficult getting used. I'm totally convinced this lack of bloom is due to lack of distortion, which is a good thing. But I don't know... sometimes an oil painting is more gratifying than a photo...

Mani.

Hi Mani, it could be that all your life we have been used to hear distorted bass...

I remember talking with someone about vintage speakers for music of the seventies. It was only for fun, nothing serious about it. I was telling him that I was hearing so much saturation from the albums with the 24/96 hi res (Led Zep 1, 2 and 3)...

Alain

Mani, you've got a lot more experience than I do listening to great systems, so please take this not as advice, which I wouldn't presume to give, but just as a thought for your consideration - and would be interested in your response:

Do you think at this point, since after all you are concentrating on getting the proper bass response, that you are concerned too much with how the bass sounds, and less with whether the music overall sounds great - real and natural?  I wonder whether giving the "search for the right bass" a rest and simply listening to and enjoying the music for a good while, might in the end get you where you want to go (the right bass response) with less back-and-forth.

Hey Jud, thanks for sharing... I really do appreciate your thoughts.

Yep, I'm all for simply listening and enjoying the music, and seeing where that takes me. Definitely. And I think I'm nearly in a position to be able to do this, now that I have a tonal balance I'm happy with.

I suppose one of my biggest 'issues' is that I already have (have had for a while now) a system that I totally love the sound of - my vinyl digitization setup in my little 'studio' in my basement. Essentially, a pair of BD-Design mono amps driving a pair of AKG K-1000 headphones. This is my reference sound, the one I've been striving to emulate through speakers for quite a few years now (with different amps). So, I know the exact sound I'm looking for... and I generally know how far away (and in which 'direction') I am from getting it. When it's too far, I find it really hard to simply listen and enjoy the music through speakers.

Blessings and curses...

Mani.

Hi Mani,

I think you did not put your last two posts forward for a "discuss", but it just as well might be your intention. Anyway I feel that I should tell "back" something, but it is hard to come up with something useful. So just to let you know I'm there ...

FWIW ... Personally I would never take headphones for a reference; They are too different. The one element can perceivedly show for the better, the other never will be able to. As long as the latter does not express in distortion as such, the former will prevail and the remainder can be snowed under by it.
IOW, possibly you make yourself mad by wanting the same sound you perceive from the headphones, which just can not be.

Here's one why I never use headphones :
With headphones the music will be right in your head. You feel it nicely playing in the middle-top of your head or something and although the effect is something like being involved, the effect is also fake. I never like fake, or to be faked (influenced) by something which can not be real enough. So this is what I explicitly don't like either (and I know I am quite alone on this) :
When I'd be sitting in the sweetspot and close my eyes ... headphones effect. All sounds better right away but actually I have no reference. When I open my eyes, all sounds thus different and I can see how a plant already influences. Probably not physically (like in influencing the sound waves) but it contributes to reality. A glass of wine would do too and candle light would. And so this is not how I listen because it will be of no use that I tell you all how great the sound is, while it really is the nice wine + candle light doing it, while you like beer and are more of the Manchester United kind.
Try headphones with that plant and all should get confused. Only closing your eyes would let emerge a kind of consistent situation (no context because there plainly cant be any (no plant now *can* influence physically, right ?).

So far my attempt for contribution ...
Peter

The AKG K-1000 headphones is one of the best money can buy, and the design is more a "near field monitor" (panels are rotatable/to tilt).

Maybe Mani is listening to his speakers in a near field position.

Otherwise headphones and speakers (with the influence of the listening room) are two different worlds.

Joachim

My guess: With your new set up, there is a narrow cancellation somewhere between 60 and 100 Hz.

Buy a UMIK-1 and do some measurements of the bass region. You might have to work a little with the coordinates of your loudspeakers/listening spot.

At least, that was the cure for my system. -I have giant subwoofers with very correct and deep bass, but they didn't boogie enough when expected to. But after measuring and adding a little EQ at 60 Hz, it is sooo funky you wouldn't believe it!

Thanks for your thoughts guys.

Of course, listening through headphones (or more accurately 'head speakers', in the case of the K-1000s), could never be mistaken for the real thing, whilst with (the very best) speakers it could. But when I talked about the 'sound' of my AKG K-1000 headphones in my previous post, I really meant 'tone'. There is a 'colour', a 'liquidity' to the tone with the K-1000s that I find simply intoxicating... And I'd love to have it in my speakers.

Sorry for causing the misunderstanding.

Mani.

There may be, but I think the slight increase in LF output via DSP has already fixed the issue. The boogie factor is now there in spades.


I think you're right Alain - what I'm probably missing is the harmonic distortion low down that I'm so used to. Perhaps I should bypass the internal amps and use an external tube amp... OR just get used to accurate bass reproduction... haha.

Mani.

Hi Mani, sorry if I made a mistake while typing... I meant "All OUR life"... The Orelos are in a different league and I can imagine that one needs to reset some references :)

Alain

Mani, but others too, allow me to repeat what I said several months ago :

When some kind of instrument allows a pure sine the in regions where normally distortion will easily occur (and depending on the loudness of the instrument), with this speaker you will here that sine. So if that would ba e 32Hz organ pipe doing it, all organs will now sound the same. Of course this is disregarding the churches they are in, but still.
If this would be a synth sine (from those how can really do that like FM-modulated ones I think) then whether it be 26, 28, 31 whatever LF Hz, they will sound 100% the same.

Back then I told about this in the context of my idea of the speaker exhibiting coloration, until it got to me what was going on. But of course this is the same as all not sounding "exhiting" so to speak. So remember, if distortion is exhibiting, the level of it already brings great variation in the now square sound and this goes unnoticed. Good example could be a Hammond which can do sines, but which often is used for "rock sound" (it would be literally named a "rock Hammond sound"). So play that in sine form, but when the level is high enough to cause distortion and it will sound "rock" and you wouldn't even notice it (because it is known for being able to produce that sound).

Mani, what you could do, is trying to find that 32Hz organ pipe music preferably in solitude, listen to it through headphones and compare with through the speakers.
I wonder what will come from that comparison, but if I am right through headphones it should sound "raw" / bombastic of which of course many organ(setting)s exist. So without comparison you would accept that also.
Try to play both at equally loud perceived level which means that for the speaker you should have set the output to close to the reference level of 88dBSPL (if that is not too loud for you) and do the same (perceived) with the headphones after that.
If the headphones show an as nice sine that it's not that what bugs you.
If the headphones don't show the 32Hz organ at all or at way lower level in relation to the rest of the music, then what to say (but you know).

Eh, have fun ?
regards,
Peter

Thanks Peter. I'll try this when I'm back in the UK next week.

Mani.

I have listened to Mani's and Peter's MkII's and I know exactly what Mani is referring to above. In fact it is a concern because my Orelino's are on order!!

One of the track's I listened to at Mani's and Peter's was by Soulphiction (Nick will know exactly which one!!) and both times I was disappointed in what I heard - presumably it was the lack of those distortion harmonics that robs the music of some of its punch it just does not "rock" as it does on my speakers at home.

So I was thinking that when Michael Baumann sat down to produce his album how did he do it? Well he was sitting in a room with a pair of of monitor speakers of some kind (but for sure in a box) in front of him. He played his synth, overlayed drum tracks and adjusted the sound (listening through the box speakers complete with harmonic distortion) to be just what he wanted. Anyway he then laid down the master and the CD's went on sale.

So then Michael Baumann visits Peter or Mani's and listens to his CD through the MkII's and says "hey! this does not sound anything like I intended it to sound". And he would be right because all those "distortion harmonics" would be missing. So it could be argued that the Orelo/Orelino for many albums does not produce the sound the artist intended.

But then there music with real instruments...........

Paul

Hi Paul,

Yes it could be that the artist would not recognize the sound he intended... On the other hand, if he was to use speakers like the Orelos or Orelinos, do you imagine what would result in a "standard" speaker... The bass may get so overwhelming that it would take all the attention...

This is strange...

Alain

My experience is that in smaller monitors or speakers with small woofers, the bass has been manipulated with a hump in the 80-200 range, that creates the artifactual bass perception.
I guess a Peter can comment on manipulating low freq with DSP on Oreleo?!

VJ, I don't know; I just never investigated it. But if so it has to be done acoustically (unless it is an active speaker with DSP of course) and why not - in order to give a perceived boost.


Not really much to comment other than that all what happens is to make it as flat as possible (the +/- 0.5dB up to 19Hz).
If one would look into it he can easily see how linear the "correction" actually is (bell shape) *IF* he is able to interpret the differentitation between what the drivers + wave guide need to sustain the flatness (so compensate for mechanical roll off of the former) on one side and how the XOver is to be blended in on the other (right side so to speak).
The latter also contains corrections needed for the mid to some extend. So where the mid response may show a dip for its reponse at its end (with the notice that this includes the horn of course) the can nicely be filled out (flattened) by means of the bass dsp as long as it is in the formal XOver area.
Do notice that the net result of it all can only be seen when the whole is measured my microphone and is graphed from there.
Hint FWIW : The electrical output of the bass amplifier(s) looks 100% the same as the graphed output of the DSP. The acoustical result is that +/- 0.5dB flat line.
And a notice : The most corrections you will find at the complete left end of the spectrum which *attenuates* (notches) at a most detailed level. This is to sustain the good "distortion level" hence that no too high output emerges at 18, 17, 16 etc. Hz in relation to the (88dBSPL) the 19Hz was tuned with. Would this not have been done then 16Hz etc. would also output at almost the same 88dBPL with too high excursion thus distortion.

And might you want to know : totally nothing is incorporated from the room (read : my room) which is not an easy task to begin with.

All 'n all nothing is "humped" anywhere, but of course do not forget the F-M curves (graduate attenuation patterns starting at 600Hz upwards plus ~4KHz additional attenuation and same from of 6200Hz or so (graduate boost upwards)).

Hopefully this answers all questions in one go, because I know what you are looking at. :yes:
Peter

Just for my curiosity:

Regarding the Orelo MkII speakers, how is the DSP in the bass working? Are the active amplifiers "class D" or something?

No, just our normal own apmplifiers.

Hey, it's been quiet around here for a while. So I thought I'd give an update on my interconnects.

I can't even remember in which thread I mentioned that I'd be comparing a bunch of ICs, having been told by Peter that my 10m ICs just wouldn't 'work' seeing as the XLR inputs of the Orelos are not balanced. Well, my comparison hasn't really panned out the way I was hoping. Before I left for a business trip last week, I asked for a pair of 'expensive' 2m RCA ICs to be given to me on loan to try out. Well they haven't arrived (not sure they ever will) and because my listening room was in such a mess (from trying the USB cable comparisons), I decided to just put the PC back in the basement, and the NOS1a in the basement 'studio' for now.

What can I say? The sound is great with the 10m ICs I bought through Juan. I mean, really, really great. If I was being really critical, I'd say there might be a very slight loss in dynamics compared to the 2m RCA ICs I was using before, but quite frankly any such loss (if indeed it is really there at all) is nothing compared to the differences between various recordings. And furthermore, there seems to be no attenuation of the HF at all (that I can hear, at least).

I'm not sure this will be a permanent set up. At some point, I think I need to try the PC in the basement and the NOS1a in the main room, with a 5m USB cable between them and 2m ICs to the Orelos. But this will require pulling up some floorboards again, something that I thought I'd never need to do again. Not a big deal, but crawling under the floors of a 130-year-old house isn't my idea of fun.

So for now, I'll continue using the 10m XLR ICs. They really shouldn't sound this good considering the non-balanced nature of the setup. But they do, and that's totally fine by me.

Mani.

Hi Mani,

I´m glad that you get such a good sound in your Orelo with the 47pF cable. Let me say that we also make this cable but with RCA/RCA, it has the same structure than the XLR/XLR but without the ground wire. Kjell got one of this 47pF RCA cables so he could tell us how it compares with the XLR he also has and if he finds any difference. (Kjell, we know you're away from home and we are as anxious as you to see how your new Orelo sounds after the break-in time  ;) )

Btw, we are making also a power cord that I think could be of interest for systems with auto amplified speakers like the Orelo (of course also for other systems). It has only one plug to the wall and up to four IEC connectors with all the connections in star (all components are powered and grounded from a single common point). This cable lets connect, in practice, all the components directly to the wall in one shot while preserving a path 100% shielded.
The power distributors or power bars are useful for their flexibility, but typically have two problems, unnecessarily multiply contacts (IEC inlet, inside wiring, connection sockets, new connectors on cables associated input and output, etc.), and often wiring are not in star, so the ground potential is not the same between the connections, resulting in ground noise that generally affect more or less the sound. This cable avoids these problems.

Just a humble contribution to get everything a bit better. If anyone is interested please PM as I have no website. It is pure craftsmanship at very affordable price  :)

Kind regards,
Juan

Juan, will let you know if I can hear any improvement with the 2 meter rca over the 5 meter xlr.

I am planning to get new power cords with tailored length, so check your mailbox :)

Thanks Kjell, I PM you

Juan

I finally got around to measuring the response of the Orelos in my room and... oh boy!

Pic 1

This shows the response from 30Hz to 70Hz with the mic placed just in front of the speaker vs. at the listening position. There's simply a MASSIVE dip between 65-35Hz at the listening position. Each vertical is 5dB, so the dip is up to -25dB! It's no wonder that I've had an issue with the low end since the day I set the Orelos up. Increasing the overall bass gain seemed to help, but is was obviously totally screwing up the overall LF/MF/HF balance.

Interestingly, with the mic placed close to the speaker, the response is  very flat - a testament to how well the speakers have been set up by Peter in the first place.

Pic 2

Peter and I worked together over the weekend to achieve this response... at the listening position!!! I set up a measurement system in the room and sent Peter the first pic via email. He created a new filter for me that I could load into the speaker's bass DSP and sent it back to me via email. We iterated quite a few times until we achieved this response.

Sound Quality

Well let's just say that this is the best low end I've ever heard. Period. Nothing that I've heard to date comes close to this. Sorry Paul, the low end from your Orelinos is good, but not this good :P

[I haven't been to Peter's place since he's had his Orelos, but can only assume that his low end is on par with mine, if he's taken measurements and tuned his speakers' LF to the room.]

[A very happy] Mani.

The new settings are incredible, in other words, the speakers can be pinpoint adjusted to the listening position.  :yes: :clapping:

Joachim

That is great news Mani I am really glad to hear that you got your bass sorted out.

I must say, however, that when I posted "The Earth Moved" it was after the mods to my computer which produced sub low bass that really does sound as if the house foundations are moving (sometimes!!) - and that was after you heard them last ha ha.

Anyway I can't wait to come along and hear your MkII's again with added bass (if of course I get an invite!).

Cheers

Paul

Good stuff Mani!

Like I said earlier, all the rooms with the best bass that I have heard have been measured.  It can really make a big difference.

Great that Peter was able to change the DSP to get the room working...now that's customer service right there.

Cheers,

Anthony

Yep, I'm really impressed with the result too. I have to admit that both Peter and myself were really unsure whether we could use the DSP to overcome the room's null point in the 40-50Hz region. But the fact that this can be done with DSP is just great.

Mani.

You're welcome any time Paul.

Mani.

Thanks Anthony.


Hey, we all know that there's no better customer service than that provided by Peter (and Ciska)!

I would recommend anyone with a pair of Orelino/Orelo speakers, who feel they currently have bass issues in the room, to give this a go. I mean, why not use their DSP to overcome such issues?

BUT... I have to say that although this whole process wasn't massively difficult, it WAS time-consuming and certainly not trivial. You have to get your head around the room equalization software, set up an appropriate sound device with input/output, set up the mic, learn how to take measurements and capture the outputs, learn how to load new filters into the speakers, and finally learn how to manipulate those filters for fine tuning.

Provided you can do all this, you should be good to go!

Mani.

It looks like open-baffle speakers using DSP are now getting the credit they deserve:

http://www.analogplanet.com/content/kyron-audios-kronos-best-sounding-system-you-will-ever-hear

If MF is goo goo ga ga over these then I'm sure he'd be totally blown away by the Orelino/Orelo speakers. I mean, there is no way these 'Kronos' speakers could compete with a 118dB/w mid/high horn and 3x 15" (semi horn-loaded) bass drivers per channel. Also, I suspect the DEQX unit isn't as good as the DSP bass unit our speakers. And the Kronos speakers are way more expensive.

One thing that occurs to me is that the Orelino/Orelo speakers are not getting the exposure they properly deserve. Now that I can hear what my Orelos are truly capable of I really feel this should be fixed. But how?

Mani.

Haha, and how can we know eh ?

But no, I didn't tune anything to the room.
The main reason is that I don't use a sweet spot for listening (but see elsewhere, later). The other reason is that I already know what the difference is in my case and this is not that drastic.

... Now, I had a super BS text which ended up in even more of it, and what I will do is apply my BS to my own room in order to see the reality degree of BS. So I will first test a few things, to see whether what happened to Mani's room can be generally applied for the better.

Peter

I forgot to mention that I'm insisting on paying Peter his going rate for all the hours he spent (over his weekend!) on helping me out. This is my decision and doesn't in any way detract from the outstanding customer service I feel I've received.

Edit: I'm gonna wait at least 5 days until I pay him... just to make sure I like it  :prankster:

Mani.

Mani hi,

That's absolutely great news I cannot wait to hear the new setup. I sure have a sweet spot for the speakers, but heard the in room response I can understand the 25db dip, who would have though it was such a profound room related problem.

What a fantastic capability for the Orelino speakers to have and so typical of Peter to be so helpful in fixing the problem with such a great outcome !

Kind regards,

Nick.