XXHighEnd

I should be taking delivery of my Orelino speakers within the next few months (Peter/Bert, let me know if this is not the case!). In anticipation of this, I'm looking at options for placement of the NOS1 and I'd love to hear any thoughts you might have as to the pros and cons of each option.

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Here are the three options I have:

Option 1:

Place in listening room in the centre between the speakers on a Townshend pneumatic stand. The listening room has the original Victorian suspended wooden floor (~120 years old), with no carpet or rug(s). Its dimensions are: 5.5m x 4.3m x 3.2m. The rear wall is covered with shelves that house ~3500 LPs (see pic below) - probably not the best for creating that 'flying seagull' sound in the room, as the LPs provide a certain amount of rear damping. Generally I think the room has nice acoustics. But of course, the NOS1 will be subject to some serious bass emanating from the Orelinos, with their 3x bass drivers per channel.

Pros:
- short ICs

Cons:
- long USB (5m)
- very little vibrational control

Option 2:

Place in basement, next to 'Le Monster' music PC. The basement isn't exactly below the listening room, but down and then across from it. When music plays, even with my currently very modest setup, the bass can easily be heard through a small opening in the brickwork through which passes a number of wires, including the USB cable. With the Orelinos, there may well still be quite a bit of LF getting through to the NOS1's circuitry inside.

Pros:
- much reduced vibrations from Orelinos
- shorter USB cable required (0.5m-2m)

Cons:
- longer ICs (realistically 6m long - would need to order a pair of balanced XLRs, presumably as well screened as possible)
- close to Le Monster, with who-knows-what EMI

Option 3:

In my LP digitization 'studio' (see pic below). This is a self-contained space, with sound insulation and a semi-faraday cage. It sits 3m away from where Le Monster currently sits. Even with the Orelinos playing 'enthusiastically', I doubt there would be anything getting through.

Pros:
- virtually no vibrations
- greatly reduced EMI (my mobile goes dead as soon as I enter)
- nice, clean environment (totally isolated, air filtered, humidity controlled)

Cons:
- long USB (3-5m)
- long ICs (8-10m) - I have a pair of 10m high quality double-shielded XLR microphone cables already

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Of course, I could (and perhaps should) just try all 3 options once the speakers are here and go for the one that sounds the best. But it'd really be useful to get all the necessary wiring, etc in place beforehand (depending on option, floorboards may need to be taken up, etc) , so I'd be happy to hear any 'theoretical' thoughts on the pros and cons if anyone has any.

Cheers, Mani

Hi Mani,

If I try to approach this "mathematically" then Option 2 falls out (a lot of fall out there anyway ;)).

Option 1 vs Option 3 both need an ~ as long USB cable. So that's out of the equation.
What's left is short IC for Option 1 and long IC for Option 2. Doable ? yes, but with the best IC only (just find yourself the lowest capacitance numbers on earth and see whether your microphone IC is not twice that).

So Cons for Option 3 now are out of the way, which leaves a Con for Option 1, the Vibration Control.
Thus Option 3 it shall be.

That was easy eh ?


Additional note :
Since your Orelino's will be fairly close to the wall behind them, you can also take into account that quite some warbling might be going on in between the speakers because of them being open baffle; don't ask me what that could do to your NOS1 when being there in the middle of the speakers but if anything it won't be for the better.

I hope this helped somewhat, but it wasn't anything special of course. What I did do though was taking the possible quality aspects out of the equation so we don't need to think about those any more. One thing though : I took the "vibration is bad in the listening room" for granted, and maybe that is not justified. This is up to you. But when not justified, Option 1 wins right away (with the further same "math").

Regards,
Peter

Hi Mani,

I think also that the best option is the 3 with the recommendations made by Peter. Then, once you have the Orelino, I would concentrate on the acoustics of the room so that the sound has adequate reflection and dispersion. Being a room specially prepared to work with sound sometimes the internal insulation of the room makes the reflection and dispersion of sound too lively or too deaf, however I understand that the isolation of this room (option 3) is done by creating a double chamber, so maybe the acoustics of your room is correct. Anyway, that's another issue to consider later.


Peter, what is a low capacitance value? My RCA cable has a capacitance value of 50 pF/m, is it a good value for a IC to be connected to the NOS1?

Thanks,
Juan

Juan, by heart : That 50 is that very low (meaning : hard to find lower, or ?).

Peter

Re: Direct connection between NOS1 and power amplifier (http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=2720.msg28421#msg28421)

That's what I was thinking about (the thread about my experiment with long XLR cables last year)... So with the Blue Jeans Cables XLR cables at about 14pF per foot, 36 feet would still be within the parameters that Peter indicates with the NOS1.

Alain

Mani hi,

My hunch would be to go with option 1. The reasoning being that it can use short interconnects. I tried 15m usb cables and my hunch is that a long USB lead would be less disruptive to sound than 5m + interconnects. There would be a lot of dielectric length in the ICs to "shape" the sound and to manage EMI on such a long cable it will need to be shielded which might make keeping capacitance low difficult.

If it were me, I would also look to reduce the length of the USB cable by  moving your PC into your listening room. I think you were running fan-less iirc when we listened to your system so with a smaller PC case it would not be too disruptive to your listening room.

With the bass output of the Orelinos that Peter has described, if the NOS / PC were to move into your listening room I was thinking it might be useful to cut structural vibration from the suspended wooden floor by finding a way to put in a wall mounted shelf to use the mass of the house to isolated bass vibration for your NOS / PC. Similar to the set up on your studio turntable support.

That leaves airborne vibration which I think could still be a factor. But I think it may be that reduction of USB and IC length whilst using wall based platform to cut structural vibration might help address the factors that have the greatest impact on sound.

My set up here is reasonable close to what I'm suggesting above, although I don't have a wall attached platform my Townsend rack is placed on the concrete floor.

Which ever way you go it will be really interesting seeing what the relative influences and impacts are on sound quality.

EMI is certainly a factor but i suspect that it may be in key areas of the playback system. I got round to doing some planned targeted work on EMI reduction over the last couple of months and have had some absolutely superb results from it. I'll put a post up shortly about it (all applicable to you modified DAC).

Kind regards,

Nick.

Hi Guys,

Thanks for all your thoughts. Not easy to decide without actually trying all three options. And indeed, that's exactly what I've decided I'll do. I'll wire in the necessary USB and XLR cables now and then play around with the NOS1's placement once the Orelinos are here. This may actually provide a definitive idea of what's most important: minimising vibrations, minimising the USB length or minimising the IC length.


It's been difficult getting the definitive capacitance figures for my Klotz M5 cables. One source suggests 70pF/m, another suggests 50pF/m. And there's nothing on the Klotz website as the cables are discontinued. But either way, these figures don't seem too bad for a double-shielded cable. Even if we take the the worse-case scenario, the NOS1 will be feeding a total of 700pF. Seems doable to me.

As I said, I'll get everything ready to be able to try all three options. I'm genuinely interested in which wins out, not just for my obvious benefit, but for the potential benefit of everyone.

Cheers, Mani.

Ok Mani. With that all set, shield that radiator on the cabinet's sides. Maybe your LPs last longer then. :)

Peter


PS: This is a kind of joke I wanted to make ride away when I saw the picture, assuming that for sure you have throught that over. Just curious though ...

Ahhhh, but that radiator permanently is switched off. There is another radiator on the opposite side of the room near the window, but even that is usually off. This was never a problem when I had the Sauermann monos - the room would warm up nicely with them. Oh well, I'll just have to use the room's Victorian fireplace (which now runs on gas and not coal... fortunately).

But thanks for the warning...

Mani.

Hi Mani,

Personally I do not agree with your options that is not the way I would look at it. I would look at each of the "factors" as follows: -

1.  Interconnects are absolutely critical in my system. Short interconnects (of the right construction & materials) are totally essential here and I would not trade them off against anything - ever - no way. I have tried long high quality microphone cable for interconnects in the past and as a result they would not find a way into my system they would not be anywhere near good enough. I have done a lot of listening and my ears tell me that plastic (including PTFE) used in the construction of interconnects and speaker cable is a VERY BAD THING. So they are banished from my system. By the way from what I have heard the bad effect of plastic is not an LCR electrical thing at all it is something else.

2. USB cable In respect of USB cable length I use 3m normally (only because I do not happen to have a shorter cable). I have just tried (for you!!!) a 5m extension USB cable and connected that to my 3m cable making 8m in all. I am struggling to hear any difference (of course DEXA's may help a lot). Certainly if there is a difference it is something I might trade in for a big benefit elsewhere.

3. Vibration So that leaves vibration and this is where I struggle because I have not spent enough time testing vibration isolation (yet!!). As you know my NOS1 is mounted in a vibration reducing frame. The shelves are made of specially constructed balsa and they in turn are suspended on tensioned cords. How well does that work? I have no idea except that in the bad old days when I had a record deck the performance was absolutely transformed for the better using the balsa/cord arrangement. But for NOS1 is it good enough? - I just do not know.

4.  RFI again this is a difficult one but I have a sneaky feeling that what I intend to do with your NOS1 and your PC when I come up - well RFI may just possibly be less of an issue. But I would need to do much testing  - I cannot say for sure yet.

So what I am saying is that experimentation and testing is needed: -

a. first try to find out how much vibration isolation is a factor (so try the basement, the faraday cage and compare with the listening room all with long interconnects and long usb cables). It might be that your hydraulic support works well or if you want we could try my stand as well at the same time or even also try and floating water bath!!

Obviously if any of the above isolation techniques is effective (or good enough) then the answer is simple. But if isolation of the two supports is not good enough then the answer is also simple - find a method of isolation in the listening room that does work!!. That might not be possible but certainly I would try anything to find a solution to that. It is something that I intend to do in my system soon (when the weather permits) because I can try my NOS1 outside the house fairly easily with pretty much the same electrical interconnects. Watch this space. This is not possible just now as the River Thames is in my back garden just now & we are sitting here with crossed fingers. :(

Also I have not tested long interconnects of the construction I use it might be that they work well again I just not know until I try them (and I do not have the materials to build them just now). However, calculations I have seen elsewhere indicate that interconnect length is important and they should be kept as short as possible.

Of course that does not answer your question but I would not go for one option without testing. For me I would have to experiment to find out what to go for - and given how good I think your system is potentially going to sound with the Orelo's (or Orelino's I lose track) it is worth spending some time to get right.

Cheers

Paul

A quick update...

I was relaxing yesterday trying to get over some jet lag and decided to compare my 10m Klotz cables with some other balanced XLR cables I had lying around. Not entirely scientific, but I tried a couple of different ways of testing them:

1) single cable direct from NOS1 to power amp
2) 2 different cables connected in series, with one acting as a a 'reference' (the great advantage of XLR connectors)

1) Results:

Well, the 10m Klotz microphone cables are bloody good! I thought they had a beautifully balanced sound - not too LF heavy or too bright. There was a quality to them that I simply cannot define but that I really, really liked. Anyway, nothing annoying at all. Compared to all-but-one of my other 1m cables (some of which are seriously $$$), they had at least as much HF detail. So I'm not sure their capacitance is an issue at all.

There was one set of cables that did seem to have more detail - these were my XLR 'anti-cables'. But for the first time I noticed that these had an uneasy edge to them compared to many of the other cables.

2) Results:

Well this was interesting. Here was the process:
a) listen to 'reference' cable connected directly between NOS1 and amp
b) insert another cable in series with 'reference' and listen
c) any difference in sound between a) and b) must be attributable to the newly inserted cable NOT being totally transparent

In a nutshell, NONE of the cables I have are totally transparent. All of them changed the sound of whichever 'reference' cable was in. My most striking observation was that the 'anti-cables' changed the sound of the Klotz cables (when the latter were the 'reference') to a brighter sound. So, the 'anti-cables' are certainly not transparent. Of course, I tried this the other way too. And indeed, the Klotz cables changed the sound of the 'anti-cables' (when the latter were the 'reference') to a less bright sound... but the change was to a much lesser extent.

Anyway, if I had to choose just one pair of cables, it would be the Klotz. So, it seems my dilemma is sorted... for now.

Mani.

Hi Mani - what would be interesting is a comparison between a very short length and a long length of your favoured i/c.

But I guess that will not be easy to do!!

P

Maybe I wasn't clear enough. I compared the 10m Klotz directly with a bunch of 1m ICs, including a pair of 1m 'anti-cables'. These direct comparisons are what I meant by method 1). And of course, these direct comparisons were with the NOS1 still in the room. Isolating it totally from the room (using the 10m Klotz cables) may well dwarf any differences I'm hearing between ICs.

Or do you mean <1m length??? I think the only really short XLRs I have are a pair of 0.5m Analysis Plus cables (I have both the copper and silver-over-copper versions). But even if I preferred the sound of really short ICs, the result would be moot as I'd still need to use a pair of ~2m ICs, even with the NOS1 bang in the middle of the room between the speakers.

But what I like about my method 2) is that it gives an idea of the exact affect a cable has on the sound. For example, I would have sworn that my anti-cables were the most transparent cables I had. But this proves not to be the case - they're actually adding a brightness that isn't there otherwise. I could not have identified this characteristic without method 2).

Anyway, I'm going to repeat 1) and 2) again in-depth... before I commit to pulling up any floorboards.

Mani.

Tomorrow is going to be a sad day. Gerd Sauermann is coming over to collect the mono amps he lovingly built for me. I just don't need the Sauermann amps for the fully-active Orelinos. Otherwise there is no way I'd be selling them. I put Gerd's amps in the same league as the NOS1 sonically, and well ahead of anything I've ever owned in terms of build-quality.

Although I have no need of Gerd's products going forward, can I just give him a big plug? If I was using passive speakers, there is no other amp on the planet I would rather use than Gerd's. If you're in the market for an amp in the €8K-€10K range, please put Gerd's amps on your list of those to listen to. In Europe, it should be possible to get some sort of demo.

Mani.

So ?
Mine (for LS cables) didn't work out my a mile also; same reasoning I had in advance. But what if they filter less ?


My view : all overdoing things. All you need to take care of is the capacitance (hence what the NOS1 can drive) and for 100% sure this won't matter for anything between 1cm and 5 meters. Beyond that ? take into account that capacitance (which you did I think).

Peter

Well again, this is where my method 2) comes into its own. If they indeed 'filter less', then when placed in series with another (any) cable, the sound should not change fundamentally. But it does. And there's the rub.

The cables that truly 'filter less' MUST be those that affect the sound the least when placed in series with another (any) cable... no?

Mani.

Well, Gerd has just been... and gone, with my beautiful mono amplifiers  :(

It was an absolute pleasure to see him again. His enthusiasm for our hobby is contagious.


Actually, Gerd disagreed with this. His main focus is in the time domain, and not the frequency domain. He suggested the following scenario. Imagine a 1m cable that was smearing the signal in the time domain (most cables do this, according to Gerd). Now imagine placing an identical 1m cable in series with this. There would probably be no change in sound (or very little). According to my 'hypothesis', this shows that the second cable is perfect. But of course, it isn't. It just isn't good enough in the time domain to show the issue up.

So, I'm now going to go for plan A. I will try all permutations of cables and NOS1 positioning to determine which is the best configuration. I asked Gerd how I could determine the 'best', without a reference. His answer was to compare directly to real instruments playing in the room.

Hmmmm...

Mani.

I recently discovered some cables with a capacitance as low as 47pF/m. The cables are hand made by order and this is what the technician who build them told me when I asked him about the capacitance of this cables (this is a translation, sorry if there is some technical fault):

"The previous version had a Star Quad (4 twisted conductors) geometry with a common braided shield. The new one is a miniaturized version of the above: same metal, same insulation, same cotton filling, but being thinner I can use two separate conductors per channel, each with their own shield and each with positive and negative signal in braiding pair. By reducing the size I can use an additional wire for connecting the grounds, and thus the shielding of each tube is connected only at the end of the destination (male connector), and so the only effective capacitance is the one  which occurs between the stranded conductors: 47pF/m, unlike the previous cable that´s about 50pF/m between conductors and 100pF/m between conductors and shield."

This cables are the most neutral and clean I ever had. I compared this cables with the AntiCables and found the AntiCables adding some kind of brilliance, same as Mani said. As a plus they are cheap. Now all my cables are made by this guy including the power cable for the NOS1 with an L shape connector which make it easier to route the interconnection cables without touching the power cord.

If anyone is interested in this cables PM to juanpmar@gmail.com. I´ll be glad to help.

Regards,
Juan

Hi Juan, I'll reply to your PM tomorrow.

Cheers, Mani.

Just a quick note to say that title of this thread isn't really accurate. I've actually ordered a pair of Orelo MkII speakers from Peter and not the Orelino speakers. Not sure what 'clean' sub-20Hz bass is going to sound like in my room... but really looking forward to finding out.

Mani.

Thanks Mani
Juan

Apologies for broken record mode: This is exactly what Mapleshade/Omega Mikro say about most cables; they also say their cables are built to minimize this time domain smearing.  (It's one reason their cables look so minimalist, as they identify the insulation used on most cables as a culprit in smearing the signal.  They refer to it as "dielectric pumping," where the dielectric acts as a capacitor, charging up when the signal passes through the adjoining cable, then discharging back into the cable out of time.)

Update...

I've been using a pair of 10m cables (with a signal-signal capacitance of only 47pF/m) that Juan had built up for me  by a technician he knows in Spain (thanks so much Juan). These cables are seriously good and very reasonably priced. They sound at least as good as any 1m cables I have here (including the anticables). In any event, having had them in place for the last couple of weeks now, I'm confident that these 10m cables have little or no detrimental affect on the sound. So I made the decision that the NOS1 was definitely going to be placed 10m away in the little 'studio' in my basement - pretty much totally isolated from the listening room. I completed the necessary work yesterday. The listening room is now pretty clean, with nothing but the speakers showing from the listening position (currently the amps are there too) and the monitor & keyboard on the shelves behind (see below). The PC sits in the basement and the NOS1 in the basement 'studio'. I created a little diagram to show this (see below), but it probably confuses more than helps.

Cutting a long story short, I'm ready for the Orelo MkII speakers!

Mani.

Yes, I think those interlinks Juan can provide are good; he told me about them and the way it is done and I recall I liked that. Just give him a call I'd say.

Peter

Hey Mani, nice !

Not sure what that "earth" is really and what you put it for, but I assume it is not important ?

Just a small notice I only realize now I see that picture with the wooden floor :

I intended to make photos of it - and should do that today really - but see below for a quicky ...

This is one of the wings of my currently disabled speakers (because they receive the final production version upgrade today) and you see holes in there. These holes are meant to fill up the inside with grit or sand or anything. This is no must and I myself did not do it so far (but should do it this afternoon), and obviously this is to make the lot more robust and/or better coupling to the floor (hey, for what's that worth of course, but especially in your situation it should be for the better (no DAC on that floor)).

However, the point - to some extend - is that this will be quite heavy. (One) Speaker itself is roughly 75Kg/165lbs and on estimate filling up those wings may add 100Kg/220lbs easily (depends on the material used for the filling).

So now we are at 175Kg/385lbs for one speaker, and it is for you to decide on how many pressure points that will rest (but normally 3).

It is only since yesterday that I am thinking this over myself, and maybe it is too crazy to do it. So, it is not necessary but should be better again - and made for it.
But a few of those pressure points on that wooden floor with that weight ? maybe not.

Btw notice that there's also the option to not use footers at all and thus spread the weight over the whole of the surface (back bracket and wings).

Lastly, nothing in those wings vibrates anyway that I can notice, so ...

Regards,
Peter

Thank you Mani, I´m happy that the cables are working well in your system. If the cables work well also with the Orelo speakers I´ll be very proud and happy to share a place among such a high quality components.


Thank you Peter, I appreciate your words.

In case someone is interested in the interconnect cables, speaker cables or power cords please send me a PM.

Best regards,
Juan

Juan, maybe obfuscate that email address somewhat, otherwise you'll be offered more Viagra there than what's good for you.
I think. ;)

Peter

Well, this whole endeavour is about vibration control and I just wanted to show that the PC in the basement and the NOS1 in the 'studio' both sit on the earth foundations of the house - i.e. a solid floor. The speakers in the listening room, meanwhile, sit on a suspended wooden floor. What I didn't show though were the two 'sleeper' brick walls in centre of the dead space below the wooden floor that support the joists. Although suspended, it's a solid floor that's capable of withstanding quite some pounding.

I doubt I'll fill the wings with anything immediately. But I'd be interested in hearing your feedback on the difference, if any. If I do decide to fill them, I'll definitely use them without the footers and have the weight distributed over the back bracket and wings (I may do this anyway, even without the filling).

Mani.

hahaha, no problem Peter I could always resell the Viagra, actually, not to brag but fortunately I do not need it yet. I remove the email just in case  ;)

I can be found clicking on my username.

Juan

Hi Mani,

we are all waiting for the first report about your new speakers.

How long .......... ?

Joachim

Haha...

It looks like they'll be ready in the next couple of weeks or so. However, the timing on my side isn't great as I'll be travelling for work when they're completed. So realistically, it'll be mid June before I have them here and all up and running.

But someone in the US should have his well before then. Not sure who it is, or whether they even post here. But there may be a 'review' out before mine.

Mani.

I use these cables for some months now and I only can concur with Juan, these are very neutral cables. Compared to my other cables (cryo, silver, etc) these cables do everything so much better, that I really forgot them  :).

Apart from the SQ, these cables are robustly build and have a more than reasonable price).

So in anticipation to the NOS1a, don't forget these cables.

Thanks Juan.

Regards,
Stanley

Yep Stanley, I'm really happy with my cables too. Are they the best cables available? Dunno. If I suddenly became a billionaire tomorrow, I'd probably order a 10m pair of Tellurium Black Diamond balanced interconnects. But until that happens, at something like 1/50th of the cost of the Telluriums, the cables Juan had made up for me are staying. I simply cannot fault their sound.

I'd highly recommend anyone looking for very high value-for-money new cables to drop Juan a line.

Mani.

Hi Stanley and Mani. Thanks so much. I'm glad that the cables are working so well in your systems.

Kind regards,
Juan