XXHighEnd

From here :



So, let's try to let this topic be *only* about what happens to USB Yes or No connected to the PC's chassis.

---

USB travels a very strange path which is related to PE (Protective Earth). Something like : When you use 5V from USB that right away influences PE and a 5V offset is there. It is (way) more complicated, and/but I have always seen this as a major downside. However, I "utilize" this for turning groundloops the way I want with the NOS1. You can see this when you pull the USB cable, and most often you will perceive whatever anomalies (hum etc.) from the speakers, totally depending on the remainder of your gear. And if not that you will see that the DC Offset of the NOS1 is not right anymore.

While working on the USB PCIe cards, I now suddenly see an opportunity ...
An opportunity to maybe avoid this strange over-PE connection;

If I recall correct the chassis of the PC is involved here. I for sure forgot how exactly, but something like : The PC's chassis is connected to PE, and why is USB too ?
Back at the time (when I developed the NOS1-USB) it looked mighty dangerous to "utilize" this behaviour because I could expect that not for all PC's this would be the case (btw, what about laptops on batteries ?). Still, no single NOS1 fails on this setup (see DC Offset protocol), so it will be the same for all PC's. But, I am not even 100% sure that it *really* is about this, whatever I am talking about which I hardly know myself. Now :

Supposed that the specs of USB are such that by some path it has to be connected to the PC's chassis. Mind you, I don't even know whether this will be the "shield" part (if in order at all) or just signal ground or something which is even plainly wrong (which is what I prefer to think). Thus, any MoBo connector is (has to be, oughts to be) setup like this;

PCI(e) cards do the same, or at least can do the same, by accident or not; We already found that at least for some investigated cards the bracket with which it's screwed to the chassis is connected to the ground planes of such a card. So, ground of the card is connected to the PC chassis, and *that* is connected to PE. And so is USB ground connected to PE.

Already starts to sound nasty eh ? Yeah, maybe through our speakers too.

Now, with such a card we at least have the opportunity to cut the "USB ground" to the chassis and thus to PE. Just remove the bracket ...

Well, sort of, because a PCIe card really isn't anything to comfortably use without it fixated (way small footprint of the PCIe bus connection) so it seems a better option to put some heatshrink tube around the whole bracket (maybe now it won't fit anymore ?) plus use a plastic (nylon) bolt to fixate it. Also not really easy because you need to have such a bolt. Heat shrink tube of the proper size the same of course, but your wife will have a hair dryer (to heat the tube) or use some torch.
Still, when it is about trying only, removing the bracket will do, *if* the bracked can come off in a fashion that it can be put on again ...
All 'n all it's possibly not even easy to try this.

What will happen next I can't predict. I mean, for those with the NOS1 DAC it just as well might happen that the groundloops now go where I don't want them to go. Maybe it hums, or low oscillations will be audible (like when the USB cable is not connected - but this won't happen to everyone).
Possibly you now have a 10 fold more difficulty to get the DC Offset right, but KNOW that it still can be OK. Just keep on trying (referring to the NOS1 Install Guide here).

You may wonder why I am not trying this myself ? Well, in the few hours in a day that I can work on this, I usually run into other things first. Finalize the software of a PC which has to go out - talk through findings of the day about something (always working on new things/designs) - just a tad too much.
And yes, while typing in forums is an easy task, but I do that somewhere else and harmlessly.

Anyway, for now this is theory only and possibly someone sees something wrong with it. Also, the Silverstone card which actually triggered this subject possibly doesn't even have its bracket connected to the ground of the card. And no, I did not check that either (should have done that yesterday). But *if* it doesn't have connected the bracket to ground, we already can see a reason for the card sounding so good ? Thus one way or the other, I think this little subject could be of importance.

Regards,
Peter

Hi Peter,

I made the isolation you said, I believe it is well done. No problem to set up the NOS1 DC offset but it can be done easier if the USB cable is disconnected.

I hear less hum, if any, putting my ear touching the speakers but my speakers are not very sensitive. I did it just to see what happens as you suggested and for me the sound is fine. Better? I really can´t say for sure but I´d say yes. Don´t trust me, I usually find better sound after I make some modification, I´m very prone to placebo  ;). Anyway the sound is really good, let me say that with less Sssss (I mean my own Sssss not sure either if it is the same Ssss as yours).

To isolate it I used heatshrink tube but only in the upper part of the bracket, it is fixed with blue-tack. I´m sure that the card or the bracket is not touching the PC case, the white piece that can be seen in the green plastic is blue-tack (white) to separate the bracket from the case. As there is not screw the card is like floating, there is a gap between the bracket and the case but the connection with the PCi slot is correct.

Regards,
Juan

Hey !!

That is great Juan !


But are you now saying that you sure saw a difference with getting the DC Offset right compared to when the card was connected to the chassis ??
If so, it tells something !
So ?

Peter

Not, I don´t think there is a difference, it took some times to get it right like always. The only different thing I saw is that repeatedly -1 appeared in one channel and always in the same channel, five or six times. I haven´t seen it before so persistently. I don´t know if that means something.

When I commented about the DC offset I only wanted to say that I´ve found that to set correctly the DC offset is easier when the USB cable is disconnected from the PC. Today I disconnected everything and I had to set the DC offset again and this is why I made the comment, also because you said something about that.

On the other hand I don´t think that when you disconnect the USB cable that connects the NOS1 and the Pc you loose the DC offset, am I wrong?

Juan

Not per se, but not per se correct either. Let's say "it depends".


Now it depends on what you were used to regarding this, but all I know quite certainly is that with the USB cable DISconnected it is far more difficult. This should be "standard" (so, also for you).
Notice that I am seeking for different behaviour to this regard, and certainly not better behaviour or anything (I mean, I don't care about that at this moment).

So ...


What about this one then ? Because of our both English this can go two directions :
1. I hear less hum if I heard any hum at all ever, but certainly not more;
2. I hear less hum now, actually nothing anymore hum than before;
What is your choice ? :grazy:

Peter

Non of them but the fault was mine. What I wanted to say is:

Before isolating the card I heard a little hum. Now, after I isolated the card I can´t hear any hum. If I put my ear touching the speaker I only hear a slight ssss in the tweeter but not a hum in the woofer, nothing.

Juan

No wonder that you can't choose with such a line of text ! Heck, I don't even know what I really wanted to say there. :swoon:

So if my conclusion is right that you used the card before but then (without the isolation) you clearly could hear a hum from the speaker, then that is set (but otherwise correct me again). This assumed :

What about when you used the MoBo connection ? was the hum the same ?
I realize that I don't even know whether you used the MoBo connection (I may have been the last of Mohicans doing that ;)), so if not, just compare with whatever you used prior to the Silverstone.

Mr Noise

Hi Mr. Noise,

I don´t use the MoBo connection since I was using a Tecknet USB3.0 card and that´s some quite time ago. With the TeckNet card there was some hum but also my speakers were more sensitive then the ones I have now.

What I´m sure now with the speakers I use today is that with the Silverstone I heard some hum before I isolated the card and no hum at all after I isolated the card.

So:

- Before isolation= hum

- After isolation= no hum

 ;)

Juan

Ha !
See, this is a typical reason I shouldn't test this myself. I have no hum anyway so how could I hear a difference (but it could hum *with* the isolation). Still it will be possible that it can be seen by measurement, but that too is not be expected really in my situation because I know I don't even see a thing right now. But since I am the only person on the planet which really doesn't have any noise at all (which is only because I can measure it and I'm a bit keen on it all), it could help YOU (all).

Remember, perceiving some hum (or hiss) is not so bad because most will have tweaked it so much down (at full gain of course) that it won't be disturbing. In the mean time though, it will be devistating to good SQ.

And then to think that I have been brewing on this for actually years. It is only that I am using a PCIe card myself now that I could see it (all stupid theory of course). But you wanna know how I really came to it ?

For the first week or so I had been using the Silverstone card without it fixated with the bolt; I was tweaking with other things, and coincidentally it is quite tough to screw it in and out. Below you see a picture of it (sorry it is out of focus) where you see the hole in that bar exactly in the middle of the picture, where under that is the free space where the Silverstone gets in. The hole is for the screwdriver to go through and now try to grab or let loose that bolt with one thumb and finger where each is at the other side of that bar (I know, some pliers do wonders, but that usually fails too when aiming for the correct angle of the bolt opposed to its hole). And I already experienced two times that the BIOS was reset because of mangling there (one time the bolt falling down).
Hehehe, long story ... So finally to the point :

Yesterday, *without* looking at the PC itself, I suddenly was placeboed by a SQ change of the past few days (but I changed more things) with the knowledge that last week I finally fixated the Silverstone. So I envisioned that without fixation maybe the bracket didn't touch the chassis, and this is how I got the idea.
But really, if you reread the first post in this topic, you will be able to see how I first expressed about the readily present knowledge I had that PE is involved, while on the spot of writing that post I just reasoned out how that would happen. I didn't tell this explicitly, but it's really the typing of that post which made me suddenly see. And as usual (say 99% of cases with all these things I run into), all by sheer coincidence; If I didn't have had that card loose in it, if I didn't have experienced a SQ degradation (placebo !), if I didnt fixate the card at around the same time of this degradation *and* if I didn't have the almost impossible to obtain knowledge of the *how* USB is related to PE (which in itself comes from the attempt to power the display over USB and *that* not working well because of how the NOS1 attacks DC Offset which is a story of months in itself ...)
Then we possibly never knew.

All assumed that we didn't make other mistakes throughout this topic and that for example the bracket of the card is not connected to the groundplanes at all. But STILL it could be EMI in that case ...

Coincidental me.


PS: Great thanks for your help here Juan. I can tell you that you should feel proud to be so helpful *again*, while actually lacking the gear (speakers) to enjoy audio from the normal angle. Have a few on me !!

PPS: Someone is going to make me an isolated Silverstone tomorrow ...

Peter, I´m never sure if you are laying a trap for us or not  ;), anyway it's fun and if we move forward it is better still.

This could be a placebo or not but I need (maybe you tomorrow Peter, when someone isolate your card) that other people test the card isolated to see if they hear the same as I do. The highs are smoother and in general all seems to sound better. Really good.

Besides the isolation of the card could be also other circumstances that could contribute to the good sound:

- My Silverstone is getting enough hours on it to start to sound better. I think it has now around 50 hours of running time.

- Today I´ve changed again the CPU speed to 1200GHz and the RAM speed to 600GHz (before I had 3300GHz/1600GHz).

 Hey Peter, thanks for your kind words!

Juan

This made me laugh Peter.  Personally I remove the screw from the cross-member (through which you put your screw-driver) and cast it aside before I screw in the USB card.  Three screws instead of one I know, it's a pain!!

Cheers,

Anthony

Hi Peter,

I unplugged the silverstone card from the mobo and measured bracket vs. molex ground and pci ground - it's connected. I removed the bracket from the silverstone and hopefully will hear no placebos  ;)

Georg

Hi Georg

Great! now we know something more, I hope you hear also some kind of improvement.

Juan

Hi guys,

I have done several in/outs with the Silverstone card and have isolated it by simply removing the bracket from the card when I want it isolated and then replacing the bracket and screwing it into the chassis when it is not to be isolated.  It takes a while between re-boots and fiddling with screws (Peter, I even dropped the chassis screw onto the mobo at one stage and held my breath when it was time to restart).

Regardless of whether the bracket is in place or not I have a hum through my speakers that is only evident when I put my ear within about 10cm of them...it is standard transformer noise...and is evident in both the woofer and the tweeter.

DC offsets seemed to be the same in both test scenarios.

What did I hear?  Not much difference.  Sometimes I think that with no bracket that there is a little more clarity to the sound but that does not seem to be a stable observation.

Then, instead of powering the Silverstone from the SMPS I power the Molex from my 5v lab LPS.  Nice improvements...blacker black, more flesh (ringing, decay) and separation on the cymbals, the double bass is easier to follow etc..  This is when the Silverstone is bracketed and non-bracketed.

Cheers,
Anthony

Shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit


So, my Silverstone got a coat yesterday. Not her official one because the size of the tubing we had laying around was too small to do it neatly, but today we'll get a bigger condom and peek some pictures.

Now a few coincidental things happened;
After talking a few things through I sat down to do some analyser tests for other things and only hours later I switched on the audio PC. The PC appeared to have lost its BIOS again
(what is it in that USB3 card-corner ?) and so up to the photos with the special settings. Well, I didn't make those photos and of course the screen it was about (this is a bit hidden) was not on photo. D*mn. A bit of shouting why not ALL screens were taken, and oh well. Point is also that I wanted to see whether those settings now could work from scratch or that reboots were needed etc. (this is all about special PC behaviour and how to get that done). But alas, since it was a week ago only that I had to put in the BIOS settings maybe I remembered.
15 Minutes later the PC was running, and hey, all as intended ! So ha, I now finally know what settings to set. BIOS photos will be up soon.

Same as this all doesn't make sense to you (what the heck is the guy talking about), because of this I totally forgot about the card's isolation. Ciska went out and I brought up XXHighEnd and pressed Play, continuing the album where I left off the day before. Loading takes a few secs, and in that time I walk to the "offiice" corner to deal with emails and such. Notice that this is along one of the walls, say the left wall where the left speaker is some 7 meters from where I'm sitting (speaker is to the right of me now).

I think I just raised a hand to let it land on the keyboard somewhere, but what I recall is that I lost all of my muscles and sort of collapsed. Hard to describe. But envision something like
Whaaaaaat ?

I will try to show you how I behaved. Remember that 9 year old "aria" (Dutch) girl Juan put up ? Here : http://www.youtube.com/embed/cWWqp-IVfb8?rel=0
Scroll to 1:40 in that video and watch the guy in the right (also see picture below).
You really should briefly look at that YouTube because otherwise you will never understand the impact of this change. Seriously.

I stood up from the chair behind my desk (watch the guy doing exactly so) and walked around the half-height wall there so I could be in the middle of the room, leaving behind my jaw;
Already from that spot behind the desk I heard the sound everywhere. So envision me looking around me what was happening, at first not even realizing this was the music which just had started. This could not be ...

During my little walk around that wall (which is a walk towards the left speaker) I noticed a MOST STRANGE phenomenon : there was no music. Yeah, how to describe such a thing. Better could be "music came from nowhere" (which somewhat resembles "it is everywhere").

If I could detect anything from music source it was from the upper far corners above the speakers (3 meters high and my "corners" are round). What came to me was not a wall of sound, but something which could be called "inside out" and a headphone feeling. Maybe I can call it "from within my brain only". It felt like I was hypnothised or drugged or something which was so odd that it couldn't be true.
The next half hour -being alone in the room- I had only be expressing outloud "shiiit" this and that and "what ?" and I don't know anymore. Envision someone virtually banging his head to a wall and with a bang per word "HOW-IS-THIS-POS-SI-BLE" (6 bangs and enough to wake up I'd say).

What explicitly slipped my mind was that I received a third ear. That third ear made me localise better. I also thought "ok, this must be the real start of my 3D localisation project I started 'Phasure' for (never mind for now if you don't know about it).

Let's remember, I just continued the album from the day before. It was as if the tracks I played yesterday were supposed to be 3D scape sound exposures and test signals. Music floating from left to right and back and towards and up and down and, man, I can't describe it. And *again* I noticed that actually there was no music. Such a thing can only happen in a dream.
When the album was finished I put it back to track 1 to relisten to what I should have heard the day before. But no, that now too were "test signals".
In the mean time all of the tracks went into my Demo Gallery, but I think after the 5th I stopped that because that's not much useful.

With the notice that this was a new album to me in the first place, after that I put up a known one and the story was the same. Nothing is producing music but still it is in my head. Call it the ultimate layed back. But inside out.
No more lyrics.


So, somewhere within that first album Ciska came back in. Of course I was watching her to see her response.
Nothing. Hmm ...

Ok, so we'll go the usual route and sneak in questions;
P: Don't you notice something maybe ?
C: Oh, don't know the music.
P: Nah, just general.
C: Don't know the music; too difficult. And always your sh*t ambient.
P: No no no, just try to make up anything regardless. Just try.

Then within 7-8 seconds this came out :

C: Far away. Speed. No, more speed. Spacious.

Ah ok. So force someone, and within 7 seconds you knew after all eh.
Next came the question whether this was from the working BIOS settings and my response was "forgot your condom excercise already ?". Aha.

Maybe women need some focus, but while she too now knew what it was about (or could be about), automatically this came out :

C: So clear (like in crystal);
C: Loose;
C: Soo clear (now like in can hear/understand all the words);
C: Oh, those drops ...
C: Super much detail;
C: More intense.

I was surpised about the last one and envisioned that only women can make this up. However, now I'm writing it, I feel the resemblance with my "from the brain". And stupid thing is, she did not come up with anything like that, but I now thus see she maybe did after all ("intense").

The drops is almost the best description; possibly all of us have been in some 5.1 arrangement and watched something like a waterfall movie. Now drops could sound all around you. That's what happened here too, and when she said it I didn't even hear drops (the music was not meant to let hear drops) but the way you are in a cave and drops are dripping all around you is what this is about. All around you.

While she mentioned the speed which I didn't notice as an element so much because this actually did not allow me to listen for elements as such, I am not sure but throughout further listening it well can be the key "logical" phenomenon doing this. I say "logical" because probably it is nothing physical. Only about infinitely more separation or something.
BUT
While I always feel the woofers when something extraordinary seems to spring from the speakers and because a track was playing of how I know the woofers feel, I now did that too. And now things get dangerous ...

Maybe people have read about my W8.1 experience, how it muffles the sound and how my woofers excurt so much that it becomes unresponsible (don't play louder or they'll break);
Now it was the other way around. Hardly any movement at all.
(Bert, might you read this : Your 15"ers over there).
Listening to it (before feeling) gave me the impression that bass was now so lean that (and again !) it actually wasn't there. Well it was, but I could not focus on it. This, btw, is really really hard while -with this track now too- the sound scape (mind the scape which might be poor English but which is in my mind now all over) floating from, well, everywhere. I just can't understand it.
For those who experienced it (e.g. Paul), the sugar cubes in quadruple. No, more. And really, one of the first things which came to me is that it seemed that the SPL was equal everywhere in the room (sugar cubes did the same - I measured).
It can't be expressed as "sound does not come from the speakers" because it already didn't. Instead I now have 20 speakers throughout the room. And a third ear.

---

So, all what happened is that USB shouldn't be connected to PE anymore. And let's remember, noise and such I already did not have (-120dB after gain hence measured at the output of the amps (at full gain)). It is totally freaking unbelievable what this thus does. It feels like 10 fold any previous "huge change".

The biggest change ever.

---

Peter


PS: Changed the title of the topic.

Peter, I think you could very well write science fiction, a possible invasion of aliens, paranormal effects or how it feels when one is abducted by some alien force arrived from some unknown place.

Now I am traveling away from home for a week (again), but when yesterday I closed the door of my listening room, and let all those components in a gloom atmosphere, I felt that a new sound was waiting until my return, a new born and splendidly beautiful sound...

This all happened after isolating the card. What a great discovery, Peter!

Kind regards,
Juan

Had a similar out-of-body experience when I walked out of "The Doors" café last time I was in Amsterdam....... :o

I'll have what you're drinking Peter.  No such thing happened here...not even close.  Are you able to remove the condom and see if it reverts?

Anthony

Jack, how was that ? I forgot somewhat. But something like "No Peter, can't visite you for some, and I rather be with my wife when she's buying new lingery.".
Hahaha

I think a new thread "Condom" is needed apparently they are good for hiding hallucinogenic drugs.

Paul

What with condoms, intoxicants & music, should this topic not be renamed Sex & Drugs & Rock & roll!

Wow... I am still trying to understand exactly the results. This time the stakes seem very high ! For the moment I am stuck with headphones but as soon as I get the chance, you bet I will check these results with the "isolated" card !

Alain

Strange question to ask, but at this point...

Should it be eventually a good thing to isolate the other PCIe cards around also ? Video card for example ? I don't have any rational hypothesis behind this, but ?...

Alain

Woh ! Video should be a foremost one. The monitor is THE most nasty thing in the whole chain.

Now let's see whether some condoms are left.

Good one Alain !

Good question Alain. As still there is not any explanation on why or how the isolation affects the sound I guess that the best answer is try it and see what happens. I can´t do that but when I return home I´ll do it. I imagine that the same way that as less components are attached to the computer the better for the SQ, as more isolated are the components that are attached to the pc the better for the SQ.

Regards,
Juan

Hohoho, watch out now; women could be reading this.

Anyway, so you really think that when I reasoned out something (which I did in advance) that I am going to cut off my beautifully coloured condom (same as Juan used ;)) and perform some A-B (which I don't ever do in the first place) because maybe I don't trust and my reasoning and my third leg - uhm, ear ?


So Anthony - everybody actually ... When do you finally get my message that when you have whatever audible "noise" from the speaker - no matter how close your ear - all is lost ?
I STILL must run into the very first person who can confirm "no noise at all !" and that for speakers which usually are 15dB less sensitive than mine (but can easily be 30dB less).

Compare it with all being bit perfect and we still can change the sound so vastly, in that software case through some software dials. Seems impossible, but is so.
This time the "issue" is different because it should impact noise directly and
1. PE becomes free of whatever USB Noise and thus doesn't influence the remainder of the gear;
2. USB is not polluted by PE anomalies which are all over the place to begin with.

Ad 2 :
2a. When the load on the mains changes, PE will change (DC Offset upwards) and because PE changes the neutral changes. And the other way around.
2b. The PC itself already changes the load all the time; watch your usage meter.

While this is all a bit outside of the subject of the quote, the message should be that whatever minimal (microscopic small) changes in noise and this time assuming analog noise not so much hammering on the digital interface (so this is my explicit thought) that in this same domain now YOU have analog noise of something like 70dB the very least (speaker sensitivity), while I have 20dB the very most. The calculation is a bit difficult to explain, but say that I know that inherent system (DAC) noise is -140dB, D/A conversion plus output stage is 20dB (I can see that) and the amp's gain of 20 adds 20dB of noise because the former 20dB is amplified. So it is about this middle part which I denote my "20dB at most". Really difficult to explain, but this is during playback at full scale (-0dBFS) while I attenuate 20dBFS at least (usually that is) which again brings the base noise level at -120dB (after amp gain).

Still there ?
That was a long way of telling that for normal playback my noise is at -120dB which is possible for you too. However, since you hear noise/hum this will be at least 72dB down (dynamic range of your ears estimated at 72dB, which story is longer again) and while "base theoretical noise" is at -120 and 120-72 = 48, the noise additionally produced in your system compared to mine will be 48dB.

If now only the influence I am talking about is in the analog domain indeed - and with which I mean that it happens in your amplifier and/or in the output stage of your NOS1 because of whatever groundloops, AND what I "influenced" with this change is bringing my own noise down with 0.5dB, than my noise has changed vastly (think like 0.5dB out of 20dB) while your noise changed relatively nothing (0.5dB out of 68 (20 + 48).
While this is one way to approach it, the other is to look at the resolvement of the bits for the NOS1, which coincidentally (or not) is at -120dB or 20 bits and that any 0.5dB (etc.) may just unveil that next bit. This, while though technically for your NOS1 it will be the same, practically it can not because your noise is at -72dB or more (because you hear it) or IOW 12 bits.
Do not underestitame this, because this is really how it works.

So, of course nothing of the sort happened in your system.
But notice my strict assumptions, which just start(ed) with the reasoning (first post in this topic). No way this was "USB interface" related, although there too it can have its impact - at least through analog means which is the PSU in there, which is connected to the mains (and now hammering on jitter again). But this is not the general idea.

Why not put up a test signal, and hook up your scope to the end of your loudspeaker cables. Focus on the haze of the signal you see. All sharp ? then digitally (!) attenuate until you clearly see it.
But of course you can leave out the test signal and just look at the noise. Next trust me that this noise will ride ON the signal.
Now you will get how all analog noise that is diminished a little (my 0,5dB example) won't bring you much. This thus, while in my case I am at the limit of the dynamic range of the D/A chip which is officially 110dB and I have 120dB already (but you too - that's just the NOS1).

(http://www.stordiau.nl/Phasure NOS1/1000 -120dBFS.png)
This comes from your NOS1, 120dBFS attenuated (1KHz signal). Watch the noise level (around 30uVp-p) but also see how this noise curls around the signal).

---

All 'n all what happened here is explainable, if only it is allowed to think that an additional bit of resolvement can bring so much more. Whether *that* is true I don't know (yet) but obviously something has to explain it. Drinking a beer too many seems not feasable since I always first press play and only then flip the first crown (MMMV after that).

Lastly, please keep in mind that what I achieved for SQ here day before yesterday already is beyond anyone's leage as I see it. Not to show off, but to indicate how difficult it is to talk about audio instead of mutual listening, plus that I hear a few things more to begin with (because of it all being so good). But let's not make it difficult and instead simply refer to the hum and noise all of you guys have which makes me win all games here to begin with; only if you have the noise at the same level as I have, we can really start about amplifiers and speakers and who might now "win" because of the better amp etc. But even that won't be easy, but at least it is something of which I won't say "can't exist".

I hope this is helpful; it is to see whether I am really correct on all this.

Peter

I am wondering about that too. I steal the analog signal from the soundcard with its correspondent ground wire near the DAC chip, but the card itself is attained to the PC chassis in the usual way. I'll give a try when I feel brave enough (or at least less lazy).

Maxi

Guys, some will know about this already, but in brief the below quote (from elsewhere in the forum) tells what the actual objective is of me, right from the start I began with Phasure. Of course I want it to be happening, but it looks like I now really have it on its tail ...

>Peter: I STILL must run into the very first person who an confirm "no noise at all !" and that for speakers which usually are 15dB less sensitive than mine (but can easily be 30dB less).

I said I had no hum at all but it was not totally true at the end. I listened more carefully yesterday with as much as possible silence around and I could heard a very low hum in the woofer. What I can confirm is that in my case the hum was much lower than before isolating the card. In fact the hum was almost inaudible even touching the speakers with my ear while before I could hear the hum from a few cmts from the speakers.

Juan

All,

I hope it is clear that nobody says that you can get rid of hum or anything by means of this. It might (to some extend) like in Juan's situation, but no rules exist.
All is one stupid complex of the interconnected pile of things including what's on the mains itself, and for example when I received new amps the other day (coming with the speaker) I really had to dig again because of course it hummed.

Peter

I know Peter, I just wanted to clarify a little more what I was really hearing.

Juan

All,

I'm sure I didn't express any subjective qualities about this "tweak" (like how good it sounds), so just saying ...

So yesterday I tried to push through a boatload of normal music (not ambient sh*t which often really is about "test signals") and the story remains the same :

In my head inside out.

Does that sound right to you ? The in my head maybe, but the inside sure not (and no, I didn't try to invert Absolute Phase). But first a few characteristics or "happenings" I experienced :

Ok, how to tell your wife that you wet your pands. And that this happened from teardrops. Happened to me with Madonna's This used to me my Playground. Ok, nobody noticed it.
Point here is that I know this track so well, and now this happened. First this was about the voice combined with the sadness of the lyrics and the clear bells at the start of the track, but next I noticed that it was a mere technical thing that made me drip somewhat when the bass started. It was so tremendously good.

Thinking of Q sound and whether to play that Immaculate Collection, I choose Amused to Dead instead and played Three Wishes. This I must have played a 1000 times because it has been a test track. But didn't play it for two years at least. Teeeeering (that's Dutch), I'm just blasted away by the rolling very low frequency (manipulated) voice in the middle of the track. Think literally blasted backwards. Q sound worked well.

Then slowly it became apparent that voices go in your head instead of passing by (around) you. This must be the "intense" Ciska talked about. Already here maybe something goes odd. Not sure.

Next the Hammond of Jon Lord showed so clear what I have been hearing all the time the past two days as a real characteristic : Fast lower frequency on/off short sweeps from the one frequency to the other (like going from 200 to 400 Hz). So outside that I suddenly hear how a Hammond may really work, it is these things which I hear all the time, and each time this is brought to my attention as if it is an anomaly. It happens at the higher frequencies just the same. But I can't find a reason for it being a real anomaly, so what's actually unveiled ? Strange.

Put up a nice double bass (upright bass) and like with the Deep Purple I could not focus on anything. And this is where I can't cope much ...

Envision that double bass superbly projected in this case a 1 meter to the right of the left speaker (speakers are 6 meters apart). Doesn't move, all OK. Sound is quite at the high side (meaning, previously this was lower) and the height of the sound source seems too high (double bass is tall but not that tall). But if I try to get a picture of its width I just can't do it. So, try to see it is too wide and there is no answer. Too small ? sure not. Result -> is correct.
But it isn't, because I actually didn't get an answer. And THAT I can't bear.

I am going to be speculative now and probably I lack some university classes, but I feel that something is going on with the "inside out" and "in my head" and that all seems to be compressed into the size of my head (technically : distance between ears) and now no mapping can be made with the real distance of the sources which actually is the distance between the speakers.

It happened with everything. For example, my later expressions about ride cymbals were all so easy to dig out of the music, while the very same track does not allow it now. So, listen for that ride cymbal again like only two weeks ago, and I do hear it, but it is impossible to judge whether it is louder now or softer or better pinppointed or what. Same thing : no answer.
This can make you mad.

My very first idea in the very first seconds of listening (first post from yesterday) was a super heavily processed sound. Remember, I called it test signals. But it really is so. For that ambient type of music it seems impossible that someone set up tracks such, that they express like they now do while I am pretty 100% sure the artist never heard it himself. So how to set that up (in a synthesizer) ?

I am as far as thinking "the beginning of Windows 8 but now even 10 fold". So, think back about the strangenessess of Windows 8 as we all experienced a year ago, but now 10 times worse. The result ? can't even be judged. Great gag though. Something like that.

But still ...

If I again think about what happens to me when I try to judge that double bass, then as a very first there is just nothing wrong with it. Nothing. Especially when I thought about the man being in front of me, me in the first row BUT it is a theater and the man is on a 2m high podium ... why not and now the height (bass is too tall) is solved. Really so.
Additionally that bass has never been so precisely positioned in between the speakers.
Additional note on this : Such a bass can easily come from one apeaker only, never mind it is a bass (this is a main NOS1 characteristic). However, what I noticed so far is that when this happened that bass comes nicely from the left speaker which could be called a gag in itself (because seems impossible). So, that has been my experience so far. Now though, the thing positions somewhere in between the speaker, and the middle it is not (the middle would be the most easy and what a whole world will experience (no NOS1). And this so clear and rock steady position now is no gag anymore. It is a property which is new to me, and something in my brain tells me that this was (!) not happening and possibly I want it more to the left or otherwise in the middle. And I can't cope.

Proceeding ... Each and every time when I try to think about what is wrong, my brain gives me a right away answer "blending ! blending my boy !". And it feels like that. So when I try to focus on that bass I can't help that the sax is in the way. It blasts right through the bass. Still that sax plays in the right speaker (a bit to the left of it). So what's up ?
So next I try to envision the real podium in front of me and whether I could focus on the bass and not be disturbed by the sax. IOW could this be reality while a few days back it was far from ?

Much of this (text) will not be understood by most because I am a technical listener. So, dig out one element and judge it on its own. Like that bass example. Want to judge the sax ? well shift your focus and let's go. This is not what most people can do. They can only judge the music as a whole, be fairly subjective because of that (the content of the beauty of the music gets profound, the way the artist plays the violin makes you cry because the artist plays it so well etc.) ... while I focus on the reality of the resin etc. Just technical.

And that part has become impossible for me.
In the mean time it causes brain damage, because I *want* to or need to because I am used to that.

Oh, one more thing I explicitly noticed :
It has been a subject in between lines somewhat longer ago and I forgot the situation (most probably Windows 7 environment) but I can't see the plane anymore where the music plays. Notice that this will be similar if not exact the same as SPL being now equal everywhere (didn't measure yet) but if any Madonna sings she has a clear width/height position, but she sings at 8 meters (where the speakers are), 6 meters, 5,4,3,2,1 - in my head. So that thing again. So maybe the inside out is about that. Need to know the depth position, but braincomputer comes up with "INF" (general notation for infinity which is the same as math err).

Doh, this is crazy ... just went out to smoke a little (hey, cigar) and while outside I thought of another aspect I suddenly perceive now and wich I didn't hear since using horns. The crazy thing : I was thinking about that this happened with my previous "normal" speakers which were Infinity's R90. So, came back here to write about that and see in my last sentence "infinity". Ok, I'm crazy. Anyway :

I don't think anyone will have experienced such a thing and this is about "pumping". What do I mean ?
Envision an ellipse in front of you. It starts at your head on one end and the other end is at the speakers (say middle). Now the music (with a clear beat) makes you on the edges (the line) of the ellipse and you travel that ellipse on the beat of the music. So you travel to the speaker in upwards direction highest point half way, then travel down until at the speakers, and then back via the bottom line of the ellipse. And so on. It pumps. Very easy to create dopamine I'd say.
This now I have back, and I wonder how it could be related to a "sound everywhere" which would be fairly much the same with normal 180 degree radiating speakers.
Resembles the "blending" phenomenon as well.
When outside I was thinking about this because of that depth plane not being there. Still this implies depth (but the moving following the ellipse with be artificial and a brain thing).

Ok, must stop. If this is better it is for the ultimate better. If it is worse it is for the ultimate worse. At least I must get used to this sound, because it nowhere is how it was. And I need 5 days as usual to let pass all various music types.

Regards,
Peter

About isolating the card ...

Heatshrink tube is not the solution - at least not when the bracket it to be put in the tube and then shrink it; the tube will be too thick (notice that shrinking thickens it) and the card/bracket won't fit anymore.

So someone got creative, cut a piece from a plastic bottle, cut it to mimic a bracket, heated/bended it to let it really look like a bracket, and there we are.

Good idea Peter. Although it is necessary to have some manual dexterity the result is aesthetically acceptable. Maybe the method I used, which requires not remove the bracket is more appropriate for the clumsy people, I think that if the insulator covers only the upper part of the bracket it is thin enough to allow the installation of the card. Even forcing it a bit I think I could use also the screw. Btw are we sure that the screw is not touching the case at all?

Juan

PS. It looks you have used lately the mower, take a look to that green dust under the fan (the grey dust is more familiar to me  ;))

Here's another DIY photo story. PCIe is not Silverstone one, not available locally, will order sometime later. I have used masking tape, electrical tape and piece of isolated wire. PVC Cable Tie would be easier for tightening but had no 'thin' enough at hand. Inner side: piece of electrical tape, masking tape over it. Cut rectangle USB openings. Outer side: masking tape. Openings cut as shown in photo (whoever did wallpapers at home, knows what I'm trying to explain here :))
Electrical + masking tape over pcb. All fixed by two pieces of isolated wire. Check all is OK (isolated) with DVM. Fits PC without problem.

(http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab79/giokka/SPCIe01_zps5a6bfe1d.jpg)
(http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab79/giokka/SPCIe02_zps0b05a58b.jpg)
(http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab79/giokka/SPCIe03_zps77a0b0b9.jpg)
(http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab79/giokka/SPCIe04_zps27542cd9.jpg)

Because I was inspired by the experiences published on this forum, I ordered a Silverstone card yesterday evening. Today I installed it, replacing another USB3 card, and I isolated it from PE. The installation, including the driver, took less than an hour or so.
From the first moment I played music, I was totally flabbergasted. Mind you, I am still on W7, but with XX 1.186a.

The sound is saturated, multidimensional and very precise.
Highly recommended!

Cheers
Eric 

Eric,

Enjoy the music!

Imho no need to hurry with a switch to Win8. I'm slowly admitting to myself (again) that win8 (still) stinks on my system no matter with what it charmes me at first. But that conclusion is for another thread another time  :).

regards, Coen

All,

After a few days of more listening, this is a sort of verdict :

No matter very interesting at times, I can't cope with this sound. It is too odd/strange and it is tiring. How I am not sure, but it could be too much "buzzing". At least that sense I get from it and I don't perceive real buzzing as such (as with standing (higher frequency) waves).

The two days ago this "measure" came about :

We had a party and 25 or so people were in the room. Of course I have some music playing, like always.
I found myself having more difficulties than with other such occasions at preselecting the music to play. Just trying to envision what would be background music. Not much came to me (with the indication that nothing is "background music" as such anymore).
Ok, music was playing for 2 hours or so, and a next album was selected (actually after an all over "and Peter, when are you going to put up some music ?!") and at the attempt to put up something recognizable for the peeps at the 5th track or so (playing fairly softly) I felt that that was not "it" either. So, walked to the PC and pressed stop, and then a sheer choir of 25 people all at the same time said

"Ohhh, what a relief ! Fi-nal-ly !".

:oops:

So "intense" (as per Ciska's expression) ?
Way too much of it I'd say.

So yesterday we were talking about this after my explicit question to Ciska "and, is this now so wrong then ?". And this time music played which she knew well. First answer was "nooohh, don't think so", while we both knew we were seeking for what's wrong with it. But the "nooohh" sounded full of doubt and I again didn't know what to do with what I was perceiving from the speakers. And then - big surprise - this is what she said :

"Sounds like those sugar cubes".

Next I told her something like "see, when we take some time we all come to the same conclusion" and I told her that I already wrote it on the forum :


So this does it and it is final. The isolation will go off again.
Notice : I can't bear these sugar cubes as well. One difference : they make the sound less accurate, while I did not perceive that from the isolated card. But the exhibit is similar : processed sound. Way all over processed.

:bye:
Peter

... But before the isolation goes off, I need to apply another tweak first. And that other tweak is actually consistent with the applied isolation ...

Peter

Has others experienced the same thing as Peter ? Juan reported that there was a lot less hum when isolated, but he did not mention what Peter is experiencing... Could it then be that what turns wrong for a PC-motherboard-USB cable,etc... Will turn ok for another ?

Alain

Hi Alain,

Yes, in my case I had less hum but I only could listen with the isolated Silverstone for a couple of days. What I remember was a fantastic sound, very enjoyable indeed. Peter was listening it for one week, I don´t know if being in the same situation would make me feel the same, if that´s the case it will be a small disappointment. I´ll let you know when I come back home and listen again for some more days. It could be also system dependent, as you say. Anyway, it seems that the experience is divided between those who perceived an improvement and those who not.

Regards,
Juan

Now I think of it, maybe the card's isolation was the final nail in the win8 coffin for me (see a couple of posts back). That is that in my system it does not work out for the better with win8. The sound was very intense with a lack of tone colour (like a "black sound") and kind of strangely spacious. Didn't like the highs at all, no definition and very sharp. Also the narrowing and skewing to the right of the soundstage didn't help.

All can be partly because of the siverstone card and maybe the effect of unsynced usb reference clocks.

In my win7 setup card-isolation seems like a definive improvement, though time has to tell. Anyway it sounds rich and natural and very free from the loudspeakers. I heard a number of strings being played on vollenweiders harp that i never noticed before. Unfortunately a bit lacking on the musical side compared to my reference.

No sugarcubes though.

Regards, Coen

Peter - do you mean sugar cubes (i.e. the 1cm3 cubes that are typically stuck on the walls) http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/acousticsystem4/sugar_2.html  or the bigger versions of the same that currently sit under my NOS1 as "feet"?

As it happens I still have the three (bigger) cubes under my NOS1 only because I kind of forgot about them. I have not bothered to remove them because my NOS1 needs feet as I have that bolt head poking through the bottom of my NOS1 so I need feet.

I have to say with those feet in place and on W8 the sound here is really special (to my ears anyway) I have not recently been tempted to make any changes but maybe I should just remove them and see what happens.

Paul

Hi Peter,

If this tweak is such a big change for you, perhaps it may be worthwhile trying to measure a difference in noise at the balanced outputs or I2S or USB shield just to attempt to learn about the change.  It certainly seems as though there is potential for the tweak to be permanent if we can find a way to balance its negative effects.  Such big  changes do not come along often. 

I have a feeling that further isolating the USB card from the PCIe socket may improve the situation, but that is speculation on my part.  Or perhaps try a LPS into the 5V molex.

Regards,

Anthony

Yes Paul. Those.
And they are mine. ;)

Peter

Ha ha I have not forgotten they are safe here ready for the recall!!

Also there is a small pair of clogs here but that's another story.

:yes:

O-M-G

  :naughty:
  :unsure:

Care to elaborate Peter.  I am planning a post, but would now like to know what you are going to say!!

Anthony

So, I have kept my isolated Silverstone in my XXHE PC for the past few days and have run the 5V from my lab LPS.  Peter, your quote above is quite accurate in my opinion now...this is a tiring sound...I was actually not wanting to listen to it and at times would prefer to sit in silence.  The "buzzing" without the buzzing analogy works for me too.  I don't know what it is but I can't live with it.

So today I put back in my PPA card with the altered transformer ground and directly powered clock (from my lab LPS) and it was like a wave of relief washing over me...the entire sound is "sweeter" and I hear more clarity and separation in the highs than the Silverstone ever offered, but the tiring aspect from the past few days is greatly diminished.

Regards,

Anthony

Ok, small recap (in aftermath) :

- MoBo USB : All fine.
- Silverstone USB : far better "detail separation". Bass never as good as it has been.
- Silverstone USB isolated from PC chassis : Strange though interestesting sound. Unbearable for me.
- Silverstone USB isolated at DAC's end :yes: ...

... Back to W8 base or something (like how it was a year ago without further XXHighEnd adaption). Sound totally in the speakers, sound scape effect possibly still there but not tiring or really disturbing anymore, but, bass totally gone.
No clue. This latter isolation should be better again, but it clearly got worse. No logic to be seen for me.

Peter

So Anthony,

How about an isolated PPA card? Maybe that would reveal the effects of the USB card isolation.

With a few clips I reconnected the isolated Silverstone card to the computer chassis again. This makes quite a noticeable difference. There is more focus and stability to the sound, but it looses naturalness of the instruments and voices (ie sounding more artificial).
Its almost like the sound is literally grounded.

regards, Coen

Or can I ?
Somehow my little computer brain told me that while this looked like back to square 1 with Windows 8, I should revert to the point in time that this was the case. Makes NO SENSE, but still it was my logic. So, say at some February 3rd I went to W8 last year, than this was preceeded by February 2 I used W7. W7 sounded very OK back at the time while W8 sounded very similar to what I have today, so back to February 3 minus 1. Why not.

This was not the only stupid reasoning, because I also had the idea that while the actually super "detail separation" now was there, this could do something to the sheer distortion I these days hear from W7. Maybe now it wouldn't distort anymore ? Let's see.

So yesterday I spent an hour on getting the XXHighEnd PC in shape for the 100% same operation as W8 does it in there (W7 is on the same disk as the W8 in Dual Boot fashion) and which merely was about the drive mappings (for network access) and hovering over the 100% same XXHighEnd install/settings by means of simple copy.
When done, I think I waited for another 30 minutes before pressing Play because I was really holding my breath; obviously I was expecting a few things ...


But in the first second I readily heard something totally unexpected : Air is back.
:huh:
Yep. This can't be explained much because it's such an explicit property of the Orelino speakers, but what I never noticed is how it sneaked out. But it just did and I think where it happened : Q5=1 already from 0.9z-9b. Possibly more with Q3 and Q4 at 1 for 1.186-a.
I see this relation because I also see this :

All super bass is back (also from those speakers).
Now, I didn't read back but I am fairly sure that my first Q5=1 description (few months ago) went along with "can't judge the bass". Well, there it "went" I think I now know.
And stupid fun : The further the theoretical "good" improvements, the further the bass went. Up to the zooming/buzzing characteristic of the one-but last tweak : the isolation. The very last tweak - isolaton at the DAC's end - undid that kind of, because now at least bass had disappeared totally. At least that is how it felt.

Second notice which came to me : L/R behaviour quite similar to W8 now. Hmm ...
But after again and again watching out for this it just give me better L/R separation and not strange behaviour. OK.

Third notion : Man, what an Umpf is there now. No, this never has been so. But mind you, this exhibits at the higher frequencies best like a snare sure also exhibits lower frequencies than the square vibrating snare (under the drum).

Fourth notion : BASS. And what a bass. Djeezz what had I been missing my super separated bass cycle-per-cycle waves (I'm afraid you will never get what I mean here, but for me it is crucial).

In the mean time I was watching distortion. Of course I did because of the sheer reason of not being able to go back to W7 which I tried quite some times.
Nothing of the kind !!!

But in the mean time ...

Oh boy, this is super difficult to judge;
The sound of the Silverstone is now all over the place. So, might someone have "detected" that the card gives a signature - but which should be about a means of detail separation in general, then I now have that I don't know how many fold and it could be difficult to not see it as a flavour. Still so far (one evening only !) I don't. Same as when it first came in. Attempt for a description :

Sound is now so fresh that freshness seems not to be able to exist - it digs out details in areas of which I (again ?) think it is injected DJ Tiësto stuff - and it is at a level of loudness that it is not imaginable that this goes undistorted. The general flavour because of this is not grey but "white harp" (hey, just copletely made this up) and the singing of the to be expected grey is ridiculous.
When no "white harp" is in order because of just more black music, the usage of cymbals is so pinpointed that I think it needs surrounding sound (hard to explain).

And oh, lastly, at some stage I noticed how super dry the sound now is; it has been before and this is back. Can well be that this has been a W7 characteristic because it really is longer ago that I noticed this.

More report tomorrow I guess.
Peter


PS: The O-M-G I actually posted yesterday, or at least that was my intention - but I didn't see it back again today. Anyway, this was about how it d*mn it is possible that now THIS sound comes forward which is again 100% different (and I mean 100%) than what W8 shows *and* what W7 showed the last time.

The long and windy road back to windows 7 eh :whistle:?!

Well let's see where we end up after a 'new start' on win7 with 1.168...

looking forward to the next posts,

regards, Coen

Me no worry at all  ;)

(http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab79/giokka/delorean_b2tf_zps0638140e.jpg)

Coen,

I've pulled the bracket from the PPA card and listened all day today and there is a general change for the worse in a similar flavour to the Silverstone, but only about 50% of the change that happens with the Silverstone.  The symptoms are quite similar but I think I hear only about half of the "buzzing without buzzing" that Peter started talking about. 

Regards,

Anthony

Okay ...

It looks like I am getting really good at these kind of games, because I seem to be able to predict quite well what is going to be needed when something goes into the wrong direction (SQ wise).

So where were we ? white-harp sound. And IMO a real flavour and flavours are no good at all times. I am not sure I could have lived with this sound in general (so maybe I could) but the flavour would kill me in a couple of days.

Now what could be "applying" that flavour ?

Stupid thing is that this brought me to quite different thinking and I mean, thinking of a different subject, possibly not a problem at all. Now, today is riddle day and I will tell you two things upfront :

- I am not going to tell what I did but what I did was about that "other subject" and it solved the white-harp in the mean time;
- The SQ is now so that I want to invite the whole world to listen to it (sort of : that proud I am now - sounds childish eh ?).

So that other subject :

What I saw from measuring real time from music playback (this refers to the "Ambient" topic) was that even at tip-toeing through the room this could easly be seen in the lowest frequencies (through FFT measuring). So, the floor is one big resonator and it's my thinking that music playing itself should be hammering on the floor far worse than my tip-toeing so I wanted to solve that. Keep in mind : I came to this subject (again) because I wanted to solve that white-harp, and the idea I got could solve that too with something "additional" but clearly belonging to the same base solution.

What I applied I thought of only yesterday morning, and it was executed in a total of 2 hours. I needed to buy something for it, could not find what I want, found something that maybe could work but already in the car back I could reason it wouldn't - that was brought back and something else was bought and after that it took 30 minutes to apply whatever that was.
Yes, these were hints. :swoon: But here are some more :

The thing I did is already too ridiculous to even ever think of, and thus I thought ot it. I don't think this has been done anywhere in the world because it really is too outrageous.

It also took around an hour of preparation through Google with actually no real result other than whatever I applied is only a base setting and it is tunable to a high degree. *How* to tune it is about a subject which is an existing subject but I don't think that Google will ever bring me the real figures needed because what is applied for "common applications" is way way off for what I need here. I think that even an engineer with knowledge in the field would have quite some problems with it. The engineer would need to know the math involved.

So I applied that base setting, and that worked right out of the box.
Still, although I don't seem to lack anything at this moment (but see short description of SQ below) it will be pure accident that something worked to begin with.

For another reason, what I have now can't stay. The change needed WILL imply a different SQ looking from the technical angle, but maybe it is not audible.

Because I always think it is useless to apply tweaks others won't be able to, I already know this will be an "upgrade" which Phasure can provide.

Possibly nobody will apply such upgrade because it is too ridiculous to be sighted. Your family and neighbours will tell you that you now have really really turned crazy. :yes:

There will be quite another reason why you will scratch your head 10 times before you will even start thinking of daring to do it.

It is part of the process of isolating the USB (card) on both ends, which means that in the NOS1 you need to apply a small tweak too. Outside that, I mean that I could reason out that the riddle-tweak was needed now from the sheer "deducing" thinking of what else could further be the matter. And that turned out to be true.

Although I talked about an "upgrade", you, like me, can start applying it right today. That is, if you did not throw away anything that came with your NOS1 as how it was shipped to you. In that case you trial setup will cost no 40ct in whatever currency.

---

So, who knows what I did here ?
Start shooting as much as you all can. The more ridiculous the better chance you have.

---

Sound

First off, all what started to exhibit from isolating the card at the PC's end ( and with Windows 8 ) is still quite there. So, music comes from everywhere (a bit depending on the music itself) and what's perceived of it seems impossible.
Notice : This is now W7 but I'd have to try W8 again with this. I don't give it much chance though.

None of the strangness I wrote about is present anymore. I can focus again where I want, and music is not perceived as test signals anymore.

We listened to some commercial music (that's how I call it) like Sanctuary from Chris Jones. We know the track quite well and it is unbelievable what's all more in there than ever before. This includes things like the whoooha (assumed you know the track) that starts in the middle and floats to whatever eternity to the left. That is, I don't recall floating anything (try it).
Ok, there's more in all again - nice.

It suddenly feels like LP, to the sense of "okay, this can't go wrong". What I'm talking about is the infinite headroom perceived, before things going wrong. It just won't ever. And if you now include all the detail ... Crazy.

*What* you hear is freaking unbelievable. The signature of the Silverstone is still clearly present (the detail-separation) and I am confident that without this card nothing of the kind can happen.
Unlike W8 there is no liteness of the highs anywhere and the detail has only become more of it. This is because the detail is not in the devil but in the mid. This now *also* unveils the real detail in the highest frequencies. Say the vinyl like ticks (if you ever pereceive such sounds in the first place because it really needs that "ambient" stuff which often uses that (say transients only of a few samples of length).

A remark on the bass, again to be sorted out better : It suddenly seems as if more tracks make use of normal sines for the lower frequencies; in the shorter time I had so far this all seems to be correct (because the square like is still there too in other tracks). Anyway, what this should tell (if right indeed) is that "something" is able to let distort the lower frequencies so much that a sine there is no sine anymore at all but is deformed towards more square. Harder to explain, but since this is about the lowest frequencies anyway (say 24-30Hz) this is very apparent. How ? Well, a sine of 25Hz is hardly audible, but harmonics implied because of distortion are and will overwhelm the 25Hz. So, 25Hz will become 50Hz for 2nd harmonic distortion and will become 75Hz for the 3rd and this *always* is better audible (and make vanish the fundamental (25). So :

What - I'm confident - the riddle-tweak indeed does, is counteracting the feedback of the music itself, which especially in the very low frequencies make let the floor act like this resonator, that implying even more low frequencies (call it ambient if you like - realy so) but because of another frequency (all depending on the floor concerned) that now distorting the 25Hz (etc.) and turning that into more square sound (think low frequency rattle spaceship synthesizer and you get the idea). Now, you will never be able to detect whether this is right or wrong (because synths involved) and either way it sounds interesting. But now look here :

At the very first sounds I payed something totally different happened and it was beyond my experience so far;
Now there was deep down earth rumble coming from afar and dying out way far into space of which it can easily be seen that it was meant to be like that. This, while previously this was way interesting synth sound and it must have been so that unreal harmonics were creating this sound (you never knowing they were unreal). And so suddenly I explicitly here the sub low everywhere, which thus now is in more tracks again than I knew.

In the mean time such tracks sound way black, and not the black everybody talks about. Black is black because there is this very low frequency only (but normal music playing around it) while the nothing being around that low frequency sine wave creates an explicit black background to that frequency.

I must (sadly) say it again : This will be nothing the far most of us will be able to perceive anyway, because it *first* needs that undistorted (under 3% THD) woofer output at these low frequencies and I don't think anyone has that. When that is not the case, now the false harmonics spring from there and there's nothing left to do.
Something else is that my carefully tuned 18Hz woofer output under the condition of the "3% rule" should be re-done, because theoretically the distortion I measured has been subject to the very same I just described (floor resonance) which should imply that the Orelino speaker can be tuned "better" again (read : can reach 17-16Hz with the same "under 3%" figures).

Btw, I'm playing with SFS=220 and Q1=14 x 1 now, but this is merely the result of day before yesterday's attempt to bring down the the white-harp sound. I just left it be.


So everyone, ... what did I do ?

Peter

Vibration.  Squash balls under the NOS1 or something like that.

Does the tweak have to do with electricity ?

Alain

The NOS1 came with an AC and a USB cable... Did you mask the ground pin of the USB ?

Alain

You put the NOS1 back in the transport box, drilled holes in the carton and play it from there ? ;)

Anyone hungry? A lot of popcorn here  :)
 
(http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab79/giokka/packing_bubble_zpsac066dad.jpg)

The white protection cubes are being used?

Thanks for the experiment!

Today I succeeded in getting the silverstone to work with external linear 5V. I am not really exited about the sound, grounding the card helps a little but the sound stays sharp and ill defined. A rather different effect than on the PPA card.
I prefer the sound with the regular PC supply's 5V on the silverstone. Both a grounded and ungrounded bracket have their pros and cons to the sound. Depends on the music what goes best. This is no good and I need a different approach (like reinstalling the PPA card again).

regards, Coen

Yeah, I still prefer my ppa card with the subsequent modifications. 

Hopefully Peter will end his teasing and let us know what strange brew he has concocted to get the Silverstone sounding right.

Anthony

The NOS is swinging in the air on USB cables!

regards, Coen


p.s.
I'd also opt for the protection (styrofoam?) cubes.

Peter is mentioning need of opening NOS1, doing something in there. I have not opened mine. What (USB thingie) can be isolated fm ground?

This is unrelated to the riddle tweak as such;

In the right leg there's the main PSU and (being in front of the NOS1) under the top right bolt of that PSU is a black wire; unscrew the bolt, detach the wire (it is not soldered), isolate it's bare end and ticj it through the sleeves at the right side or something (so you at least know where it's *not* going).
Notice : Not the best solution at all because it now may catch "noise" but do NOT detach it from the USB interface as of now because it is too fragile there; also, this is all trialling.

Remember, it is part of the isolation at the PC side, and part of the Silverstone setup and without anything else (like using W8) this will NOT work for the better. So let this wire be as it is for now.

Unless you applied my riddle tweak of course ...
Or anyone did already ?
haha

Peter

It seems easy to try, but a photo will be more reassuring ? And I guess that having the NOS1 disconnected from mains will be safer ?

Alain

Come on now guys, I'm sure you can be more creative !

Ok, a hint. Nothing has been applied here yet. There is a clue in this picture. A small one, but it is there ...

Hmm, 9V battery was included as well, but surely can cost more than 40c

1. connected the 9v battery and use it to lift earth potential of the usb  a couple of volts
2. finally got rid of the red light in your mains connectionbox (really Peter.....)

The only time I've heard anything like 'white-harp' was when I bought a 'Mana Acoustics' platform for my CD player many years ago. They used the resonance characteristic of thick glass sheet to almost tune the sound to 'white-harp'.

So I think the riddle/tweak has something to do with the pink foam pads that come with the NOS1 as 'feet'. (I have a set of pink and a set of white pads. Hey, maybe the colour makes a difference???) Did you buy a particular thickness of double-sided sticky tape to attach them somewhere on the NOS1 chassis? Or maybe using them to isolate/dampen the USB connectors at each end?

Haha, back to the colour idea. Did you buy a specific colour of foam pads? Don't tell me - was blue the best colour?

Well, you did say 'ridiculous'!

Mani.

There is a little odd white pad under the power (? usb?) wire on the right of the NOS1.

Did you lift the wiring to the NOS with the foam blocks?

regards, Coen

I will be monitoring this all the time. Now if you do all too (and I hope some more of you) and keep on shooting, then maybe now and then I'll put in another hint.

When possible I'll try to confirm guesses in the good direction but I will do my best to not unveil all right away. When you hear nothing of me you can bet that the guesses were all over wrong. So, I'll try to be honest. Example of this :

At this moment I can say that one of you has been in the direction fairly well but it is so much off still that it isn't worth mentioning. :whistle: Still, if that person would know it is him, he would have a headstart which can't be caught up by the others.

Btw, the one who is the first to post the 100% correct solution wins a nice audio attention which for sure will improve SQ and which I have been keeping a secret for almost a year by now. Will be shipped to wherever you live.
This is home brew and let's not start a riddle topic about that.
Funnily enough though this thing is the most highly related to the riddle-tweak. :yes:

And oh, let's say that I always need 5 "useful" posts from 5 different people at least before it is possible to give a next hint.

And no, I don't have anything else to do today. Haha.

What is wrong in this picture ?

I would guess that you are isolating both the NOS1 & the PC from the floor resonance. Maybe using an inner tube under the PC with a specific amount of air for compliance. :) I know, however, that this is not a new idea. Thought I'd throw it out there just to further the discussion.

Riddle3 pic

- Missing Neutrik connector for NOS1 touchscreen
- Some male to female USB adapter plugged in
 

The biggest problem is the colour of the chassis. Obviously it should be white, and not blue.

Where's the DC meter battery cable???

(As an aside, I really don't like USB-USB adaptors - I know that USB is not an RF transmission line, but it still carries MHz signals and these sorts of adaptors, adding potential reflections, just cannot be a good thing... in my totally-ignorant-on-the-subject opinion.)

Mani.

I will count that in as a useful response Mani.
;)

Ahh, so it's THE COLOUR OF THE CHASSIS!!! I just knew blue was wrong.

I think we can assume that it has something to do with the 9V battery... or lack of.

Mani.

I suspect it must have been Leo with this then:


Mani

PS. Hey, this is a nice game when you're stuck in an airport lounge.

DC meter cable is there.
Is battery there - 'It Is The Question Now' :)

Some say this is me.
But never mind the guy. What the heck is he doing ?

Obviously it has to do with the dc offset.

By now I can say that another nice suggestion has passed by.

To make it far more easy for you all : I can tell that this suggestion was not given by the same guy of the previous one with the head start.
:scratching:

Trough the open hole i see something white. That is one of the 4 protection corners of the NOS1.

I can also say that while two of you have been correct on elements the one person had a post without any failure as such but had other(s) without sense (in this realm of course) while the other person made only partly sense in a post. This, while obviously all of the other persons made no sense at all.

In the end this is just math BUT it needs more posts from you to make this math more easy.
Ahum.

You know, my NOS1 currently feels the same as she sounds.

Well I can see is that there is a USB A to B converter which does not seem like a great idea - unless it has been modified in some way?

Kind of hard to tell in the picture, but is there tape around the USB cable shield where it plugs into the adapter?

Peter - is your PCIe card totally isolated from ground i.e. is the ground on the backplane now also isolated as well as having replaced the bracket with a plastic one?

By the way some time ago I spent much time getting all the grounding and earthing sorted in my system. At that time I played around isolating the USB ground at NOS1 I also lifted the black wire from the USB socket. Also I taped the bracket of the PCIe card to isolate it from the PC chassis but I could not hear any difference at all. Not a jot. The only thing I did not do was lift the ground on the PCIe card from the backplane.

But there were other changes to grounding that made a big difference................. and did not make any sense at the time but maybe they do now?

The back of the letters NOS! is blue. Can't see the inside of the NOS1  :)

Paul, Yes. But I'd say both are the same thing. So I'm sure I'm missing something.

Peter

Something else for a change ...

Also after the posts about Windows 7 I thought I really had to listen to it again. This time with 1.186 with Q5=1 settings. And the result? exactly the same as before. It is not even close W8 is MUCH better. W8 sounds clear and precise but smooth and never tiring, piano sounds just fantastic the tonal quality of a real instrument comes across and the sound is stay up all night good never tiring. Instruments are separate from the speakers and the bass much better quality detached from the speakers and stereo. I was listening to Britten Peter Grimes the other night there were instruments precisely located in the space behind the speakers bass was stupendous.

W7 does not get even close to W8 it sounds "smudged" less defined rounded over and bass loses its impact sounding monotonic and all from somewhere in the middle.

In fact I could use the same description as Peter did in his comparison but just changing the 7 and 8 around.

Very strange. I really would like to use W7 just to get the album art back but here it just does not sound good enough!!!

So the sound floates in space, like the electric ground of the nos1 circuits, like the exterior being wrapped.... with space/air (like by spacers of foam)...  And some blanket damping the sound....

If I remove the metal bracket (the bracket that is now plastic on your card) from a PCIe card and just plug it into the socket on the mobo with no bracket at all on the card so that nothing on the card is touching the frame of the PC and I then measure for continuity between the ground plane of the PCIe card (ie the track around the holes that the bracket screws into) it shows that the ground plane of the PCIe card is still connected to the PC frame (PE). So isolating the bracket only does not achieve anything and the ground pin of the PCIe card needs to be isolated / cut to achieve isolation. I may have missed it in this long thread but is that what you have done to your card?

Paul,

I ascertained the same thing about a week ago, reading .1ohms from the card screw holes to the PC casing without the bracket even on the PCIE card. Also, no noticeable change in sound either.

I have done that Paul.  I did not think it would work but it does.

Anthony

The pci-e bus is connected to the mobo ground, wich in its turn is connected to the casing (at the mobo montage screws). No surprises here. Nevertheless, this gnd connection is electrcally far away and more important there is no alternative groundpath anymore.

Imho thats why it works.

Regards, Coen

Hey Paul,

Then I'm probably saying the same as Anthony does, but the difference is huge. I did not check anything like Todd this though ...

Peter

Hi Anthony - I isolated the bracket temporarily using tape and I could not hear any difference.

Not sure if it has any bearing at all but I had strange result changing the earth layout of my system some time ago (which I posted about then). My amp is 4 x channels (amps) and each is bridged so 8 amps altogether. That does not mean a lot other than because it is bridged it accepts balanced inputs from NOS1. When I first installed the amp I had much trouble getting noise levels down to the low levels they were with my previous SE amp (never believe what anyone tells you about balanced connections ha ha). So I went through everything. The electronic ground of my amp is not connected to PE (ie it is not connected the case of the amp) so the case of my amp is not connected to anything except PE. The last thing I did with the earthing arrangement was to connect the case of my amp direct to the earth spike in the garden (which the PC and NOS1 PE's are connected to also but by a different route). So true star earthing as close as I can get it. That could not make any difference could it? wow what a difference it made probably one of the biggest & most fundamental improvements in my system. Maybe there was hash/rfi (or trafo induced eddie currents) on the case of the amp that are now routed away from NOS1. Maybe for that reason the ground of the USB in my system clean and so lifting the USB ground is not making the same difference it is making for others. Who knows? I don't suppose anyone really understands grounding arrangements anyway? and they are different for different systems and locations. A true black art.

...

I would not give you a price as a photographer ;) Up to now, with those pictures, I see pieces of the NOS1 and you attaching your shoe lacets ;)

Seriously it has to do with ground and/or isolation, but...

Alain

Tape ????

Hi Paul,

In quick AB testing removing the USB bracket made very little difference to me.  However, when I listened to it for a number of days it became unbearable to me (and to Peter it seems) but there are elements to the Silverstone sound that are excellent and so some persistence too get to the bottom of it should be worthwhile.  Removing the bracket on my ppa card made a much smaller difference but in a similar vein till the Silverstone.

Regards,

Anthony

Time for my morning swim...back in an hour.

PS  Paul, you fits finally won a game of cricket yesterday!!  

It's strange... I don't see the second USB connection, but there is something that looks like a "cap"... Trimpot ? No...

Anthony - not sure how much of a win it was with your best players out but hey we will take anything going now!!

Not sure what effect the Dexa's are having in my system as they and their PS are not connected to PE (and definitely sound worse when they are). The clock output is floating as well.

OK... I don't see the second USB input ? It has been removed... And aside of the usual USB input, there is something that I can't define... I guess this is part of the isolation process on the NOS1...

Alain

Dhl tape. Another hint to air/space. Are you using the bubblefoil for the tweak?

The USB input is not at its usual place ? Mine is aligned with the "O" and yours with the "S" ? It does not make sense...

Peter is playing with the second usb input

Do you use a Blue Tape ? From one picture it looks as if you have covered a part of the holes "NOS1" from under the cover...

The box and Peter are on the ground? Like at ground potential...or iow the NOS1s casing is at ground potential...

Than unscrewing the internal pe wire would make sense.

LOL

:yes:

Its a watering can spray water all over the inside of NOS1 and reduce everything to earth potential.

Yeah sorry, poor pictures.

I hate those riddle tweaks  :(.

The damn thing is floating in a box of water!

Peter, have you recently been abducted by someone or something that did not have a skin colour that is known to mankind ?

You sure have a lot of fun... Me too in fact ! :)

Alain

No Coen, I think Peter added some oil. For Engine #4   :rofl:

(http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab79/giokka/oil_zps14e2b158.gif)

Zr.Ms Phasure NOS1
or in English :
HMS Phasure NOS1
or in American :
USS Phasure NOS1
or in Australian :
HMAS Phasure NOS1
or in Canadian :
HMCS Phasure NOS1
or in Norwegian :
HNoMS Phasure NOS1

LMFAO!!!!

LMFAO

http://www.vibratechtvd.com/innovation&technology.html

Yeah,  Peter is LHFAO here  :biglol:!

Coen, SHIPping won't take long.

And you know what ? 2 hours ago I betted you were going to win this game. So you did.

We had great fun over here (still have), and all who contributed - great thanks for this fun.

Peter, Ciska, Paul.

Incredible... A fantastic idea, but very very extensively unbelievably crazy... Now I imagine doing the same with my 60 pounds power amp... And why not the speakers also... Finally each of us should get a boat ;)

But... Why not simplify this with big enough rubber bands to suspend the whole thing ? Talking about condoms recently, why not...

Alain

Yes, sure thought about the amps and speakers. Amps (and btw PC) are normally doable, speakers could be a problem. :)

Oh, when we were designing this house, there were to be chains right through the sealing, those chains connecting to the sealing above that, the speakers just hanging on it. That never happened ...

George,

You were so right in your first post with box and foam.
You are also so right in your last post about the oil which it really is intended to be (all about the viscosity and no electrical danger in the first place).
Notice though that the foam really has to be some stiff low mass material and that it isn't to tough the surrounding box anywhere.

---

Todd,

You were actually the one who functionally was the most close in an early stage.

---

Mani,

You were right about the colour, but people can really take a grey etc. bag for the "isolation".

---

Leo,

I personally think you should be granted a bigger prize than Coen will receive for this one :


But as you know, no matter how many times we send you something it will NEVER arrive. However, the dinner invitement is still open.

---

Thank you all,
Peter

PS: By positioning the interlinks carefully, you will be able to have the NOS1 floated in the middle without touching an edge of the box anywhere.
When you indeed try this with the box provided with shipping, take care that some extra strong material surrounds the box (could be a rope).
Indeed it is so when you move your NOS1 it feels really "suspensive" and you can feel how it it now sounds. This is a relation between its mass and the upwards force and oil will make it more suspensive but also more "attaching" to the floor. This is the math needed (what frequency to block).
To cover for the hammering sound upon the NOS1 (so not through the floor) it was my idea to put something like a box over it. That simple, but should work (for about the whole frequency range I'd say, but just a feeling).

Well, I was kind of on the right track with isolating the equipment from the floor resonance with an inner tube. Just not quite crazy enough to think of floating that inner tube in a pool of water!!! In all my years going to CES in Las Vegas, I have never seen such a thing! Crazy & Genuis are sometimes not to far apart :drinks:

Would you describe the sounds as "liquid" or "wet" Peter?

You can't guess how much we are laughing here. But "boxed" seems not right anyway.

Or "viscous" maybe :) I recall the SME tonearm had a kind of stabilizer in some oil, to reduce the effects of warped LPs and  vibrations...

Alain

PS: I think I will follow this to encourage myself and realize a system to suspend my components...

Yes Alain. And "viscous" would be the proper phenomenon I think. Still it will be the viscosity which determines the damping but attaching in the mean time. It is not so easy. So think of it : speed of sound in water is 3 times or so higher than in air. Doesn't seem right for damping eh ? Also, when being in a swimming pool (under water) - hey Anthony - what sounds are profound ? the lower frequency ones.
So it is not so easy indeed ...

Peter

Peter,
I must admit this is ingenious idea. It can be worked out with very professional look. And some silicone liquid would generate more lifting power. 
What about Alain's suggestion, hanging NOS1 on elastic stripes or hoses, something similar to what I did for HDD's inside PC:

(http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab79/giokka/Cage_zps031985cd.jpg)

Edit: Below cage is soft, open cell sponge to dampen vertical oscillation.

Yes...

Floating and/or suspending components is very interesting... Would there be differences - results or should they all be effective...

Alain

Man you are really crazy  :o :wacko: :fool: :rofl: :rofl:

Have a look at what we drove past today.  My wife took some convincing but she finally took my iPad and grabbed this photo from the passenger window of the ute.

Sorry Peter! I have no idea how to downsize this on my iPad.

EDIT:  Got it!!!!

R u suggesting to use sperm as a floating agent?

Regards, Coen

Not in least Coen.  Really, not the least.  No. Not at all.  No.

So I guess my nos1 is sounding extra good because of the magnetic suspension I use .....

Leo

Hi guys,
I had a lot of fun yesterday. Sorry I was too shy to participate although I could never figure out the solution.
But here is the proof that we all are in the same boat of fools. :grazy:
Please forget the dust. It's almost impossible remove it there behind.

Maxi

LOLOLOL

But that is what I meant; when a visitor comes over he really will think "what is this fool doing ?". It will look like voodoo puppets to a stranger ... as he believes never believes in that so you are crazy.

Thank you for sharing Maxi.
Peter

But that's my point George. All what will create more lifting power will also pass on the waves better (especially the lower freqencies).


Should work too. But this starts to approach the footers of good fame, and the bands will always pass on vibration. This is such micro stuff ...

Not easy ...
Peter

Leo,

It should. But, is this completely free floating ? So, I envision a plate just floating in the air (and this technically can exist). And not *any* touching of material anywhere. So you have that ?
Picture ?

Thanks,
Peter

Hi Guys...a first time poster...I do not have the tech or computer skills that exists in this forum...but thanks to someone much smarter than me...I do have my Amp & NOS1 floating on air...spring isolation.
A big thanks to both Peter & Anthony for helping me on my XXHighend journey...it is only the beginning...
As a teaser...there is more to come...captured by acg...Rob

Hi Peter,

no it was a little bit of teasing in return....
but I remember reading about this with turntables as the issue of preventing vibration feedback was taken very seriously by the vinyl brigade.

Now I am off to buy an inflatable pool to put all my audio gear in.
And in the mean time trying to find a way to confince my dearest and nearest that there is no (new) reason to call for the guys with the straightjacket .

Hey Rob !

:welcome:

Thank you for sharing.
Best regards,
Peter

Leo, we liggen hier kompleet in een deuk ...

Anthony, our last year's vacation in Thailand/Bankok got us the pictures below. And guess what was for desert ? See last picture. Really so !

Peter

Peter,

Do you recommend W7 now ?

Alain

Alain, I don't know yet. Give me another week or so.
Peter

I've been using the original (i.e. with inner tubes) Townshend 'siesmic sink' isolation platforms and stands for years. Apparently, vibration is isolated from 2Hz up with attenuation at 20dB per octave. Not sure how that compares with Peter's contraption. There's still airborne vibration from the speakers to the DAC/amp chassis to contend with though, which is true in Peter's case too, I assume.

I currently have my PC sitting in the basement (not right under the listening room, but down and across). When the music is on, I can hardly hear it down there. I wonder if taking the NOS1 down there would make a difference. Haha, I could even stick the NOS1 in a Faraday cage I have down there, but the ICs would then have to be ~8m long. You know what, I'm tempted to try this...

Mani.

Thinking  about Windows versions, XXHE versions and the last vibrations/isolation issues I have raised some doubts.
Despite I replaced my injured regular first team amplifier (Canary Audio with a burnt output trafo) with my quite old "bench's reserve" Electrocompaniet AW75, I have noticed a huge difference between the music coming from my headphones and the one coming from the speakers. Before there  was not so apparent, although  it always sounded better with headphones (I think the speakers are the bottleneck here). But with the last XXHE version the difference has increased a lot. I suspect my amplifier/speaker combo cannot cope well with the new W8/XXHE team while through headphones sounds better than ever.  :wacko: So I have a divided heart.

Maxi

Maxi,

This is a very interesting remark which an I think controversial response :

No headphones will ever show what speakers can do. Meaning :
Never in my life I would listen through headphones to enjoy music. The physical vibes lack.

But this right away shows the controversity : I think those vibes (and room response) are needed, whike others might think that they disturb.

The whole thing will be about how inmensely more difficult it is for amps and speakers to create the sheer infinite higher SPL. Now, imagine that things get really pinpointed and high transient and such and that iherently this is for the better;
Your headphones may still be able to cope while amps and speakers can't anymore.

And so it is my thinking that this is a kind of proof that things went for the better again.
But maybe this is stupid proof. I just never heard anyone saying something like this, which means that these are my first thoughts about it ...

Best regards,
Peter

Hi Mani,


Yes. But somewhere in the beginning of this sequence about the vibration I told that it also needs a "cover". I just did not apply that yet. In my thinking this cover can just be another box on top of the lot.


If you remember my own situation - it is all made for that. and I'd for 100% sure would put my turntable there might I use one.
But in my case I would go crazy from running up and down because I so many times need measuring and (thus) changing cables and such. So it will never be practicle.
This can, if I only make an official box for it, which will fit my cabinet (and it can). Also and as so often : I like everybody to be able to apply my tweaks or otherwise I think it's useless (to some extend).

Regards,
Peter

I needed a PCIe USB3 card for another PC so I took the opportunity to get hold of a Silverstone. I removed the clock from the Silverstone and connected a Dexa coax. With two PCIe cards each hooked up with coax leads for the Dexa a quick swap was now possible for comparison purposes. So I could swap the cards almost in the time it takes to reboot.

The result I can hear no difference at all nothing, zippo, zilch not a sausage (probably that does not translate in to Dutch ha ha).

But it is possible to hear the very smallest of differences in this system (as both Nick and Mani will confirm) - if I move the PCIe Dexa clock just a few inches away from where it is mounted the sound clearly is not as good (presumably RFI affecting the clock).

So there a couple of interesting results: -

1. With Q5=1 if I move the PC Dexa clock to a worse location (i.e. more jitter) it is clearly audible.

2. With Dexa clock applied to a Silverstone I can hear no difference compared with a.n.other PCIe card.

Maybe this is not exhaustive but interesting none the less.

By the way removing the clock from the Silverstone card is a doddle (with 2 soldering irons) it would be my first choice card for applying a Dexa mod - much easier than the other cards I have looked at.

P

Something very interesting that Peter wrote in a recent communication... With Peter's approbation :)

After a few days away I returned home yesterday and connected the system to see what was going on with the famous isolated card. I put my favorite album, one that has voice and various instruments and after a few seconds I realized that the sound was great ... but the voice, that voice was not in the center, seemed rather to the left, maybe not, maybe the voice was back in some place or in all places at once, sh..t!, that´s what Peter said!, I thought. Well, as that seemed to be out of phase I changed the cables inputs in the amp to change the phase but all was the same. It was strange because the instruments seemed well placed, was the voice that was not located in any particular place. So, I decided to return the card to its normal situation by removing the insulation. Everything went back to its proper site. However the sound appeared to be a little harder, less sweet. I insist, the feeling is as if it was out of phase, although really is not.

At the same time the possibility of returning to W7 appears. It might sound better, do not know, when I did my testing I found that W8 was the best so far. What is the main reason to go back to W7? are we talking about to test W7 because we have the Silverstone card or do I missed something? Ok, I know that some people think that W7 sound better...

About isolation, I always use those iron discs on top of the NOS1 to avoid vibrations and some kind of rubber balls as legs. Peter, have you thought about the possibility to isolate the different plates of the NOS1 with some kind of absorbing material bonded to the inner side of the plates and even with some rubber tape in the junctions of the plates?. Anyway, it looks interesting that experiment with the carton but I think you have to upgrade the tool you use to fill the box with the viscous liquid. Throw away the watering can and watch this video. ;) http://ecorptv.com/video/283/Instapak-900-Series (http://ecorptv.com/video/283/Instapak-900-Series)

Best regards,
Juan

Just in case I generate an explosion or place an order for a new NOS1 (in the case I really screw things up)...

There is this black wire, that starts from the DAC USB port, passes through the "H" and lands at the corner of a printed circuit, tied alone to a screw... Is it this I have to remove and isolate ?

Alain

Hi Juan,

I did not think about this... Increasing the mass of an object could affect its resonance ?

Alain

Why did I say crackshaft even twice while I certainly know it is crankshaft ?
Anyway there will be way more typos as this was an email to Alain. Also notice that this responded to Alain telling me he deleted some posts. So if things seem somewhat out of context ... they just are to you all. :)

Peter

I thought you meant that a crankshaft could break ;) But I understood :)

Haha.


Alain, Yes. And this DOES matter because after this nothing sounded anymore ( from Windows 8 ).

Peter

Hi Juan, Yes. Ask Gerd Sauermann who is very keen on these things. He even handed me some material to try but I have to admit I never did. Most probably because my focus can't be on two (SQ) things at the same time. But I think it is crucial especially between the NOS1's chassis and the cover (from that too you can just feel how devistating it can be).

I suppose Mani has applied it (Gerd visiting him).

Thanks ...
Peter

? I sure hope something will sound somewhat... :)

Hi Alain, I could not answer with the laws of physics in hand, maybe others can do it, but what I can tell you is what I have seen in other electronic components, some of them have placed plates of some material glued to the inner part of the component plates with the intention to change the resonance or decrease the vibration.


Hi Peter, I could imaging that you already thought about it but what do you mean with "devastating"?, do you mean that isolating the plates could be for the worst?

Here I post some pic with the dampers, the rubber balls feet and some Vibrapods underneath.

Juan

Uhm, that :cool: smiley always appears automatically when mentioning Windows 8 between braces; I adjusted the post you quoted from. Quite confusing eh ?
:)

Juan, No. The other way around. It is metal on metal which should not be and the way it sounds when you put it on without screwing in the bolds and tapping on it already tells what it really does (no matter the bolds are tight).

Peter

Peter, the dumpers I use have a felt underneath and the metal is demagnetized, there is no metal touching the metal plate of the NOS1. When I tap on the NOS1 plates with the dampers on it there is a deaf sound not like a metal sheet vibrating.
If you were talking about the plates to be attached to the inner part of the NOS1 what I wanted to say is some kind of dampening material glued to the inner part of the NOS1 plates.

This little brochure about Damping Tecniques for Noise and Vibration Control is very instructive http://www.earsc.com/pdfs/engineering/understandingdamping.pdf (http://www.earsc.com/pdfs/engineering/understandingdamping.pdf)

Juan

What do you mean with this Peter? The bracket and the one inside the NOS1?

 :)

Juan,


I was only talking about that.
Peter

It took me some time to remember where I saw the levitation board.
And I thought Leo was really using it:
 

(http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab79/giokka/MoonAudio_ZeroGravityShelf_s_zps9343a6e5.jpg)
Moon Audio Anti Gravity (Magnetic Levitation) Equipment Shelf (http://www.moonaudio.com/shelf1.htm)
(Series One sold out, new version still to come)

Hey Paul,

That's one less job to do here then!

I would guess that the Crystal on the Silverstone card is a little better than on other standard cards. Remove and use an external clock and  the advantage may be levelled out.

Regards position of the dexa clock, crystals are hugely ambient and electrical noise sensitive. As an example whilst trying to tune two DIY built clocks to run at the same speed at either end of the USB link the clock speed would go haywire just putting a hand or screw driver near a to a VCXO module that I was trimming on the 'scope the wave form also became slight less stable.

I finally got round to implementing proper shielding of my audio and 2 USB Dexas clocks today. There are some new components in the clocks now that need to run for a few days, but even with this the difference in performance already is massive. I just cannot believe what has happened  :) :) its given about half the benefit of upgraded clocks again .... I'll post on this properly soon.

Nick.

Thanks for this report Paul...it is something that I have been wondering about.  Seems to me that this is some evidence that the Silverstone "sound" is being caused by clock quality i.e. the clock on the standard Silverstone card may be a better quality than the clock on other cards. 

Cheers,

Anthony

Nick, you could try a card using the TI controller.  The newer tech may prove useful but it is a long shot I think.

Anthony

Hey Anthony,

The datasheet of the TI did look interesting but the chip takes a 1.somthing volt clock input so id need to attenuate the dexas output or build a test clock using a module with the correct output.

I guess trying the TI chip on a standard card against an NEC would give a good idea if the TI  shows promise.  Right now its difficult to see how the nec / dexa with todays setting up work applied could get better, but how many times have we thought that before :) but that's the fun of this hobby.

Your right though, the TI based card needs to be tried.

Cheers,

Nick.

Guys,

To me it seems that again you can't hold back of squeezing Dexa related posts into everwhere you see some opportunity.
Did we forget this from my first post ?


And please don't come up with a "but what about your floating boat" because this is all 100% related (because necessary to let it work out). What you do is just blundly come up with Dexa stuff AGAIN which relates to nothing. I will honestly admit though that I could not see the real merit from the post of the initiator of this (misery I'd like to call it) :


I didn't ask because I didn't want to stirr unnecessary, so now I politely will :

Paul, how is this related to the isolation ?

Regards,
Peter

At least now you know why many in the beginning were provided these pink pads you see in the picture below. Still have them ? look at the structure ...
Try these (if you still have them (received them at all)) instead of your rubber balls etc; watch the accuracy ....
(do NOT put any feet on/in them; so the NOS1 is to be on them "flat")

Regards,
Peter

Peter, I did not get those pink pad with my NOS1. What kind of material is it?

Regards,
Juan

Specially layered ESD material. Comes with many electronics as "shipping protection". But the thickness has to be right, the number of layers has to be and the material itself needs a special density.
On the latter matter, we provided a few dozen NOS1's with a white counterpart (not ESC protective but with the layers similarly organized) but the density was not so good as I wanted it to have. This is about it being resistive to denting it (but the back of a pencil in it and the material must come back in original fahsion).

Footers have always been key.
And now I use a waterfoot. :)
Peter

Never tried those ESD (electrostatic discharge?) pads. I guess they are difficult to get. What about those waterfoot, what do they look like?

Juan

Oh, I see you are talking about the viscouse fluid or...was it water? It was water! I don´t know why I thought it was some kind of viscouse fluid... :scratching:

Juan

Some time ago I also used a waterfoot for my self  :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyxrPntmFGg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyxrPntmFGg)

Juan

Peter,

I received white pads and can tell they squashed half height, but never mind that for now.
Whats more interesting is that you (at some SW development stage) suggested (which also translates as almost 'commanded')  'remove those pads'.
So I did. And probably most of NOS-ers did. Returned to whatever they used before.

And now with 'aquarium': do you use those pads beneath NOS1 or just 'light & stiff floating plate' of yours.

George,

You are confusing with the "remove those 10ct footers which are only there against first scratching". This is in the Install Manual (now and for you USB version too undoubtedly).
So this was not about the pads. The pads were just advised to use ...


Super special home brew. :secret:
So answer : neither.

Peter

Ah, this is developing into commercial product. Capisco.

Time for an SQ update ...

Recap of the evolvement :

Windows 8
1. Isolate Silverstone USB3 card. -> Sound got crazy but got me mind crazy.
2. Isolate USB on the NOS1 side (detach black wire from top-right of main PSU). -> Sound would't escape from speaker anymore.
3. Go to Windows 7. -> All back to normal, no distortion from previous W7. Punch. Highs white-harp. Not right (because flavour).
4. Float my NOS1. -> No complaints anywhere.

Notice : I will try W8 again with the floater so it is NOT said at all that this will fail; I just don't know at this moment (but estimate it is way too lean).

All right. Mid Buster eh ? yep, that is what I know now for sure. The best to describe it is that the mid received an accellerator. This should tell all :

Suppose there is this track with such a very fast drum (think rototom). Let's say this rototom is hit once per two seconds or so on some beat. You hear one hit each these two seconds. The track I'm talking about is a kind of test track (though for stiff bass) and I played it numerous times for say 3-4 years;
If I play it now those rototoms appear to be roffled. Completely crazy for difference. Now, pronounce "rrrrrrrr". There's a speed in there and it will be fairly equal to everybody. At this speed (I estimate 12-15 times per second) now these hits on the rototom are performed. So each hit is actually a fast and totally clear roffle. And this was previously one hit ?? Yes it was and since it was still a rototom (very very fast/transient instrument) it seems impossible.
Envision the frequency this tom plays. This is nothing like a cymbal, there is nothing metal like a snare drum, it is just a fairly low base frequency. Only its transient implies a fairly high freqency but the base sound is low (maybe 100-200Hz). And THIS frequency is now able to on/off at a rate of 12-15 times per second while all previous OSes and XXHighEnd versions showed one hit. Can't be eh ?

I can rave about every such thing from ever track, but coincidentally this very same track of the rototoms showed me another crazy thing, most probably bound to the same improved property;
Envision lady voices to be morphed away (at fading out) into some eternity. In this case they fade out to higher and higher frequency until gone (electronic manipulation). Some chorus of say 5 seconds and the fade out is 3 seconds. This too I heard in all versions and variations quite the same. Now, yesterday I was completely shocked how this fade out turned into a sheer vocoder LOWER frequency at dying out. COMPLETELY different.
Actually this whole 19 minute track showed a sort of upside down performance from what I am used to of it; I always listen to it for 4 main recurring (stiff) bass parts and while the bass maybe plays 5 minutes in total it always takes me 19 minutes. In between the bass parts nothing much is going on, and things repeat and repeat. Well, all in between the bass parts must have been rewritten by someone, because it now was one big pile of interest. Not because new, but how sounds evolved (could evolve) like the woman voice turning into a lower frequency while previously it turned into fairly stupid (and (!) always critical (for hurting)) hiss.
Can-not-be.

Because there was no spur of leanness anymore (always critical for W8 in the first place) I thought to revisit Sgt. Pepper for another test time. Remember, Beatles which can always render unexpectedly. My first remark ? NOW you can hear what the guys are doing ! Suddenly all fitted and I say it again : of totally modern quality.
All is about that Indy instruements one of the guys got keen on (Harrison I think). But these are metallish sounds and what they did was emphasizing that into everything up to such over expressed cymbals (hi-hat upfront). Even the bass now appears no normal (violin) bass. That soo is some Indy instrument.
And otherwise you suddenly can see how Lennon sings with his own real voice, including looking up to the mic his Adams apple moving ...

I wanted to tell about many more experiences yesterday, but I forgot by now;
The detail is 10 times more as what I was used to from the last W8 setup (but say before the Silverstone card came in) and people say W8 is so detailed. Yes it might, but all is fake because it is the upper most frequencies only. And don't you think you can quote me from anywhere that I thought it was good. But somehow ... somehow ... the detail in that area is even more now but now it fits. It fits the fundamentals of it. Ah, wait ... :

I also tried Machine Head (Deep Purple). Remember, that totally muffled album. I just wondered what would have happened to that now. And so the strange thing : very good playable and actually in my memory suddenly 100% the same as I am used to it from vinyl. It also *sounds* like vinyl with all its aspects. Well, almost because CD is better. But main thing : dynamics are there now (there were not at all) and the whole picture is CONSISTENT. So, dynamics fit the colour of the higher frequencies. W8 ? all what could be squeezed out is silky highs with no underlaying dynamics anywhere with a triple blanket around your head (= ears).
So, highs are way underperforming still, but because the whole picture is consistent this is ok (for my brain). Nothing strange about it, and halfway the album you are used to it.
Don't put anything else with "on part" performance afterwards, because THEN you'll know again right away. Btw, no difference with the "Bill Evans" topic.

There's also my general perception of "what can we actually play ?". Well, with my normal W8 setup that became much limited. It improved a fair step with the Q3,4,5 = 1,1,1 setting but still many albums would sound too lean. One could say "so what" but to me it tells that something is very wrong. For example, a favorite of mine is Ott (such an "Ambient" performer). Well, was, because no matter what it became unplayable. So this is not a matter of "hey, does this sound too lean ?" ... no, it is about unplayable. This happens with this Ambient sh*t where all the frequencies and waveforms of the world are applied and when things don't work out strange things get profound. This can very easily end up in "high frequencies only" and let's remember my woman-vocoder example. From turning into high hiss going into low vocoder-morphed really really is a difference you know. So that. But of course it depends on the album and btw no Jazz would show that. You will notice, but unbearable/unplayable is another thing. Well, Ott works again. And how !

Peter

Thanks Peter, you present things in such a way that I am impatient to read your daily reports !

By the way, when you still mention the "power supply", even if all works fine since I disconnected (and isolated) the black wire, you are not talking about the 2 toroidal power supplies right ? This shows my total lack of knowledge about electronics...

Alain

Looking around at home you can always find a solution. This is useful for back pain and ... to isolate the NOS1!. These little bags have some sort of viscouse fluid inside. The effect? not worse than the the rubber balls I had before, in fact not bad at all. Sure Peter has a more sophisticated solution  ;)

Juan

Again it could be the placebo but the sound with that viscouse pads seems fuller with a deeper bass, perhaps a bit darker but it looks to me like a more serious sound in the sense of more grown, more consistent sound. The image is very well defined. Now I´m using W8, non isolated Silverstone card and I haven´t touched the wire inside the NOS1 yet.

Regards,
Juan

The next target for a „water bed“  should be the XXH computer for ………… .
The recommendations for the equipment placement is to store everything in a rack far away from the speakers. Consequently  the rack shall be enclosed with  a sound proof wooden cabinet of a high WAF.

Joachim

I thought I had too many panels until I saw the Joachim's room. Spectacular room treatment!
There's a problem in my opinion placing the rack so far away, you have to run very long interconnection cables, unless you use XLR cables of course, or long speakers cables.
To place the the NOS1 in an isolated cabinet is also a good idea that could be complementary of other anti-vibration treatments.
Great system, Joachim

Regards,
Juan

PS. Joachim, about WAF, if a wife accepts the panels I think she will accept easily any cabinet hahaha ;)

Hi Juan

this is not my room. The picture is from the net I used for a sample.
For the rack placement you have to make compromises, and the longer runs of the speaker cables is an approach with the smallest negative impact of the SQ.

Joachim

Edit: The equipment storage in one rack has some advantages:
- short interconnections (less RFI)
- one location for earthing and power supply

Oh sorry, I thought it was your room. Yes you are right about that compromises. :good:

Juan

On topic again:

Last evening I did some serious listening with an isolated USB card and the USB grounding wire in the NOS1 disconnected. I did not optimize settings or anything further.

I NEVER EVER has such good sound in my room. It was completely natural and I could not locate my speakers anymore. The amount of nuances is unbelievable. I tried a few tracks from albums of notoriously bad SQ and I suddenly could follow any instrument even a male/female background vocals were clearly distiguisable. Didn't even know they were there. Its like you can hear much further in the recording I had a vision of listening to a master tape.

Dynamics do not draw your attention away or make the sound to loud or uneasy. If it is there it sounds like it ought to, big, powerful, detailed and easy. Mind you this is with a 0.8W amplifier.

Pfeww :soundsgood:

-end of rave-

Now next is spending some time with the settings and if time permits produce a vessel for the NOS.

regards, Coen

Oh,

I almost forgot about the imperfection. The sound was tilted to the right again. It did not annoy me (yet), but this is an area of concern. This must be something about 1.168 and Q setting because now I am listening to win7 or it is somewhere else in my system. We'll see....

regards, Coen

Hi Coen,

Do you perhaps have a description of the changes you perceived from going from the isolated card on the PC side only to USB isolated at both ends ?
As you know I have such a description for W8, but not for W7. So I just wondered ...

Thanks,
Peter

Yes. from one to both sides isolated, windows 7 only. One MAJOR improvement.

Windows 8 has been a waste of time sofar.

regards, Coen

As far as I understand it should be this wire (coming from USB ground) and not the mains ground you might refer too.

See picture.

Peter, correct me if I am wrong!

Correct Bert. Thank you for (someone) finally producing a picture while I should have done it myself ...

Peter

Hi Coen,

It's almost symantics, but I meant "SQ changes" ...
So for W7, sound without the NOS1's side isolated and what changed when the isolation was applied.
"Major improvement" ... well, I'll believe that. But how ?

Thanks !
Peter

Please notice :
When I (earlier on) talked about isolating that bare end Bert pointed one of his arrows to, you should know that I myself guided that end through the sleeves at the right side. In the below picture you can see it sticking out.

This is not any formal means of removing this connection because eventually it should be removed at the USB's interface side (in the other leg). But *that* is not advised to do because fragile.
And so it was my idea to have it harmless to some degree (about picking up) and sticking it through these sleves would imply good positioning of the wire automatically. Anyway this is how I have it so anyone doing it the same should perceive the same (SQ/Noise) merits from it, for the better or the worse.

Peter

My USB-cable only has D+, D- wires and separate ground wire (no 5V wire). The ground wire can easily be disconnected.

What influence could disconnecting the ground wire have? I haven’t dared to try it (Ok, this also shows my lack of proper knowledge about electronics  :blush1:)

Regards,
Stanley

Ok sound quality changes.

With the NOS1 side still connected and PC unconnected, there is a sharpness in the highs and the soundscape feels somewhat unstable. That is that images seem a little inflated and wandering, having lost their focus. Because of this 'bigness' you are not able to hear all details, especially on the background only 'hints'  of them remain. Highs also seem to not have a lot of nuance.
Nevertheless the sound breathes and has a natural character.

Now with the NOS1 side also disconnected, focus returns, and how! So much so that many 'background' details suddenly become clearly audible. I also hear far more into the sound ('depth' if you will) scape.
Loudspeakers have disappeared. Like Vollenweiders harp playing full power in the room. Another example is the brush that is used on drums on the Miles Davis' Kind of Blue album. You can now clearly hear it rotating over the drum's skin while the other (loud) instruments play their respective parts. There is a lot more nuance to be heard in the playing of the instruments. I almost envisioned them moving wrt the microphone. On that same album the piano has the kind of sound I recognize from the LP, rich playful and drowned in its own reverb.
Depending on the album the music stays between the speakers or moves out of them. In any case there is a natural lightness that I recognize from live performances.

So far I have not heard ill defined or sharp highs. The low end is just there like it fits, but it is not very prominent. Yet I have to start tuning the settings. They were just semi-random that was from my experiments with re-grounding the USB cards brackets.

And there is the matter of the right channel tilt. This is less noticeable in the midrange, but bass heavy instruments are constantly more to the right.

regards, Coen

Peter,
While mentioning 'sleeves' you actually wanted to say 'slot openings' on the right side and that wire is put through one of slots?
(Red circled area from /your above/ photo)
 

Thanks Bert for the picture... I forgot it when I came back yesterday... Yes, this is the wire I detached and isolated :)

Alain

Hi Stanley,

Since Peter has this project, I would say that we're all in the "same boat" and while Peter is the Captain, we are the sailors :)

Regards,

Alain

Peter,

As always, I arrive late, but I also remarked (I am with W8) that there is more weight on the right side. It is obvious. I played a little with the balance (preamp) but it does not completely correct this.

I have another observation, but it is not really related to the isolation from ground... For a while now, I need to increase the volume to get a nice level ? I don't recall having to increase gain like this with W7, but I have not used W7 for many months now...

Alain

Jajajajajaja :)

Thanks a lot Coen.

Strange remark perhaps :
From the three people in here of whom I think they are able to judge sound (elements !) similar as I do/can, now all three described the same. This makes it a virtual 100% though the data is a bit on the lean side. ;)
Especially when thinking that one of the three is me. Haha.

That it is especially the bass which draws to a (right) side is interesting and another matter; I'd say that for the bass it would be the most difficult (compared to highs) and it makes me think it is the proof of jitter influence (always the most easily heard in the bass); what would be new to me is reasoning how jitter influences one side more than the other (I'm only saying that I never needed to reason over this subject) ...

Regards,
Peter

Peter, when changing something like isolating the ground from USB... I know what I am to say is not based on anything scientific, but could it be that when the noise patterns change, the filtering changes in some way and is able to extract more details - IOW, a detail that is buried in noise will be emphasized ?

Sorry if it is kind of "childish" and badly described...

Alain

I notice that in your sig you "keep Kan - not persist"... Don't tell me that you have seen people from Star Trek ;)

Google for "Khan (Start Trek" - it will be clearer...

Adjusted Alain. Thank you.

Alain, no clue yet. Really. However, we must keep the base idea in mind here :
What I've seen is that the usage of USB changes the DC Offset on the mains and it goes via PE (Protective Earth, not saying that nothing will happen when PE is not in order). Now, DC Offset will always be on the mains (the more apparatus you use the more) so it shouldn't be really that. However, the way USB is used should imply a frequency on the mains; the same as the general DC Offset but now looked at from how it springs (current spikes).
What I do not know is how that will creap into precious D/A chips or clocks in front of it - if at all. But somethings *has* to happen in these directions because it is totally audible.

Maybe you are right somewhere, but it needs to go over the mains first, just because that was my whole idea about it (and now I feel I must have been right haha).

Stupidly difficult ...

Totally  :offtopic:


"Khan is depicted as a North Indian Sikh—"Khan" is a title; his parents are from Chandigarh, Punjab, India..."

Marla McGivers: "From the northern India area, I'd guess. Probably a Sikh. They were the most fantastic warriors."

My parents were (when they were alive) Sikh. And I have to say that Khan is the weirdest Sikh I've ever seen.

Back to USB to PC chassis ground...

Mani.

PS: Not disputing what you hear, but bass instruments usually ARE placed to the right. (Of course there are many exceptions, depending also on the genre). 

In my system with W8 and with both sides of the USB disconnected the position of the sound image is exactly the same as with both sides not insulated. SQ similar in both cases.

Juan

Juan,

But without isolation (PC side) there is more hum ?
At least that's what I recall you saying ...

Regards,
Peter

The contrary :)
http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=2838.msg29816#msg29816

Thanks Alain,

Peter, I´d say that with both sides isolated there is a similar hum as when both sides are non isolated. So, more hum than when only the card is isolated.

Now I have a different problem, lately I´ve been using the NOS1 RCA outputs but today I wanted to test some XLR cables and when I plugged the cables in the XLR NOS1 inputs the meters were reading 0.00mv. This happens with both sides isolated and it was n´t happening in the other cases, with only the card isolated or with none of them isolated.

Regards,
Juan

Hi Juan,

0.00mv ? Isn't that the Nirvana that we are all looking for ? :)

Alain

Hi Pedal

This is of course true. Naturally I am referring to bass heavy instruments that I expect to be in the centre. Like a soloist's cello or practically most pop and jazz Rhythm sections.

Maybe it has always been a little on the right side but I did not notice because of the swollen sound images. OTOH I hear it typically with 1.168 so it could be an unintended feature (bug/side effect) of this version.

regards, Coen

What a fool I am!, seeing 0.00mv I don´t tried it. It works perfectly, the measures really are 0.00mv and 0.01mv, very well matched indeed. Before I always had -8.5mv and -10.5mv.

Thanks Alain!

Juan

Hi Juan,

There is almost no DC offset at all and this surprises me (in a good sense) :)

By the way, do you hear the sound a little tilted to the right ? Well maybe not all of the songs, but as a general tendency ?

Alain

Tonight I disconnected and isolated the usb grnd wire in the NOS1 and made a plastic bracket for the Silverstone USB-card.

To make a long story short: I now have the best SQ so far and concur with Coen's observations above.

With two exceptions.
First, I use Windows 8 and this sounds great, although I can't compare it with Windows 7.

Second, the sound stage now is symmetrical, whereas before it was shifted to the left somewhat (this was annoying). Because of the symmetry the sound stage is deeper and better focused.

Wow!   :veryhappy:

Stanley

Hi Alain,

The values are totally firm in -0.00 and -0.01 and that seems strange to me because usually the values have some small fluctuations. Let´s see what Peter says.

So far I don´t hear the sound tilted to one side or the other, before, with the card isolated, I had the voices tilted toward the left side. I subscribe totally the last post from Stanley as I also use W8 and haven´t tested W7 since we started with W8. Very good SQ with the the sound image correctly placed.
Some hum though (Peter asked about it) perceived only when I touch with my ear the front of the speaker but nothing annoying and totally imperceptible from a couple of feet away and of course when listening music. The speakers I´m using now, Rogers ls3/5a, are not very sensitive anyway (Sensitivity: 82dB/W/m. Nominal impedance: 15 ohms).

Juan

Good for you Stanley!

If I read this well the sound stage did shift to the right ;)!

Regards, Coen

P.s. And for Juan of course who experienced about the same!

Hi Coen, the feeling I had was that the voice was moving to the left (with the card insulated). Now with both sides of the USB isolated the voice is perfectly centered. Everything is correctly placed. As I said I only tested it with W8.

Regards,
Juan

Peter, yesterday I changed the interconnection cables from RCA to XLR and while with the RCA the DC offset was -8.50mv and -10.50mv when I changed the cables (with the NOS1 On) the meters suddenly went to -0.00mv and -0.01. I tried it some times more from the NOS1 Off with all the cables disconnected until I got the usual -8.50mv and -10.50mv but any time when I connected the XLR cables the metters went to those 0.00mv. The sound was great but as that change in the DC offset values never happened before and as the meters were absolutely firm with not fluctuations at all I thought that something was wrong and after a while I turned Off the NOS1 just in case. I don´t know if it could have something to do with the USB isolation in any or both sides. Before returning to the situation prior to the isolation I would like to know your opinion.

Best regards,
Juan

Juan,

You are just shortcutting the sense pins with your XLR->RCA cable (bet ? haha).

What I'm not sure about is whether Alain now also suddenly has 0.00 values. If *that* is so, something else is going on.
My values are not 0.00 anyway, but I use RCA ...

Still, at reading through the last posts I now start to wonder whether what we hear (I not) (shifting to the left or right) comes from minuscule DC offset ...

Peter

Shorcutting? that sounds bad, do you mean that something is broken? In such a case what should I do?

As far as I know Alain only commented about my 0.00 values not about his own.

The shifting to the left, in my case, was before I got the 0.00 values. It happened with my usual -8.50mv and -10.50mv

Best regards,
Juan

No no, not bad in this case, but for SQ it may matter somewhat.

XLR is plus/minus and ground. When you use a converter cable from XLR to RCA that cable will connect plus to ground (or minus to ground - never mind). And the ones connected ("shortcutted") are exactly the ones used for measuring DC Offset, which is the other pair of the signal when RCA is used; that is why sound just works while offset reads 0.00.

I hope it it is clear and also that I assume that you indeed convert from XLR to RCA - which should be true ...

Peter

Thanks Peter, now I understand it. I convert XLR to RCA in the amplifier input with an adapter

Juan

I don't check the DC offset on a regular basis... All I can say is that the values were ok the last time, but I also use RCA ICs for the moment. I will have to check this later (again...) but I did not know that you were converting the XLR > RCA Juan ? This is were I go into unknown territories...

Regards,

Alain

Hi Alain,

That´s because I wanted to test one XLR cable that I have and the amp that I´m using now has only RCA inputs.

Regards,
Juan

General remark, counting for my consistent setup as of now :

By now I am pretty sure (not 100% yet) that the higher NOS1 Driver Control Panel buffer setting (like 16ms) invokes the "harder" sound. This is not bad but music can be too "pressing" because of it.
When I engage 2ms the highs become more silky and music becomes more background music like; it encourages more for turning up the volume.

Notice that it is not said that a setting in the middle (e.g. 8ms) tunes the silky vs. hard into the middle of the both, which is related to how W7 behaves (I'm thus talking about W7 in this situation). But I didn't try that.

Peter

Today I used again my previous amp, the one I was using before I disconnected the black wire inside the NOS1. No hum here. So, testing it with the same amp I can confirm that there is less hum with one or the two sides isolated (almost imperceptible hum in both cases) than with the USB non isolated in any of the two sides.

Juan

In my situation isolating both sides of the USB card is a no go... you should hear the noise when I turn on my TL lights!

 :NY01:

Best situation would then be to NOT isolate the USB card in the PC but DO isolate the USB wire inside the NOS which  seems the best compromise for me...

Keep the noise in the PC and lead it directly to PE from there.

Bert,

Then in your situation something is wrong I'd say. What about your "power conditioning" transformer ?


That is up to you of course, but at least *that* would be an inconsistent situation. If it sounds better, then it does, but I would be very careful with that.

Peter

Several days ago I disconnect the usb ground in the NOS1 just to see what it sounded like. I use the MB usb connection so no isolation on the PC side. I thought it sounded a little bit smoother but needed to let it play for more than a few hours. That same night I woke up at 3 a.m. to the sound of rumbling pops coming from the music room. Freaked me out. Ran to the music room and turned the amp off and went back to bed. Next day "that" noise only went away when I reconnected the NOS1 usb ground wire. I was so glad nothing was destroyed!

This is an excerpt from an interesting article about grounding and TL lighting:-


Single phase derived from three phase is particularly bad.


Apparently balanced supplies were adopted to minimise this problem. Balanced transformers were used to isolate the incoming supply from the load suppl. So a balanced transformer secondary allows PE to be connected to the 0 on the secondary (115 0 115). The result is cancellation of noise that is induced equally(ish) on the +115 & -115 resulting very low noise on PE.

So if you turn on the lights and your NOS1 bursts into flames at least you know what probably happened.

I seem to remember that the supply to Nick's house is 3 phase and so his mains is single phase derived from it.

Paul

A little usb isolation tweak update that I like to share:

I reconnected the "black wire from the USB connector" to the groundingpoint of the NOS1 powersupply for two reasons:

First I have been missing some subtlety in the 'reference' sound of familiar tracks lately. I've been undoing a number of tweaks to get back to the sound of the 8e setting. Though not ultimaltely the best its the one I remember well. The ground connection brought a lot of the realness back that was also noticable on 1.168 at the expense of a little liveliness. That last might very well have been a synthetic effect of noise, anyway I like the original connected setup soundwise better.

Secondly I disconnected the NOS1 USB cable from the pc while the whole system was powered like I am used to (in order to reorganise cables). The NOS produced a rythm of loud pops that scared the hell out of me. Reconnecting the usb cable made them disappear instantly. I am glad everything seems still to work well but I am rather 'safe than sorry' with the wire connected.

Regards, Coen

Hi Coen,

Last year, while I was trying to get rid of my ground loop problem, something similar happened. There was a series of pops getting louder and louder... I jumped on the "mute" button of my preamp, but the preamp and power amp had already entered in protection mode... This scared me to death...

It could have been a stupid move on my part (it was probably just that), but all my cables were connected between the components... The only thing I was doing was shutting off a component (while volume was muted), raise the earth (or the contrary) on that component, then put back the volume... But what I learned from this was never brutally raise the volume of the preamp, just in case...

This is the part I hate: not knowing exactly what I am doing, or assuming it should be harmless...

Regards,

Alain

Coen, I would bet that if you had the light on for the DC Offsets on your NOS1 you would have noticed that they were jumping around (not fixed) when the pops were happening.  I had a similar thing happen when testing my cable loom configurations (remember the flouro light sending things crazy?) and in the end I would mute the amplifiers and just look at the DC Offsets to see if my ground connections between the PC and NOS1 had been disturbed during the testing. 

I concur that it is not a nice sound, but I think that it is related to the USB lock between the computer and NOS1, although I may be wrong.

Anthony

Hey Coen,


You seem to say that with the wire connected all is well again and no plops will occur at disconnecting the USB cable.
Well, I don't think so and the USB cable always has to be connected or otherwise the plopping just happens or can happen (not today then tomorrow). I think this is even mentioned in the Install Guide.

Personally I never saw a change in behaviour regarding this after disconnecting that black wire. BUT I 100% sure see different behaviour/sounds at using different amps or other apparatus.

Indeed (as Anthony suggests) you will see DC Offset not being stable in such a situation. But to my belief, what you actually see is the DC change behaviour of PE under influence of USB but now from the PC. So, an indirect groundloop and this is shortcut by means of the USB cable itself.

The black wire sure *is* there (explicitly !) for better control of this but now think that things can be unstable otherwise even with the USB cable connected. This very much depends on household situations and even mains setup means (very different in many countries and also different setups in the same country exist).
Keep in mind that to my belief the wire being disconnected is consistent with the isolation at the PC side, BUT this is only theory and not much theory applies here were it for all the situations. The wire disconnected while the PC side is NOT isolated would be illegal (also theory).

Anyway and summarized, I am sure that everybody here at some times experienced the plopping (in different variations when things in the chain changed), and if you never experienced it Coen, it is sheer coincidence OR you just changed something what now makes it happen.
And about cable cleanup, don't underestimate what a loose mains cord but connected to the mains already can do.

Regards,
Peter

Hi Peter,

Thanks for the elaboration.

I've never noticed this rhythmic plopping before when changing or rerouting the USB cable. In the course of time things have changed, some of which I already forgot and there are unconnected cables in the powerstrips... Maybe the isolated usb card is part of this phenomena.

regards, Coen

Fyi:

I double checked with some powercables in and out the strip, but with the black usb wire connected there are never any plops when usb cable is pulled out of the usb3 card.

Regards, Coen

Thank you for the feedback on this Coen.
Here no plops either but I always switch off the amps when I pull the USB cable. Well ... not really any more, because with the new (Orelo etc.) amplifiers the plopping is soft or not existent.
So yes, all matters. But don't ask me what exactly.

Regards,
Peter

Gentlemen,

My Silverstone SST-EC04-P arrived today. (The same version as Peter.St has).

So what to do?
-Install it as is, or reading through these 18 pages trying to understand the essence of how to isolate it by DIY means?

 :sos:

Ha !

Unscrew the bracket from it for your first attempt so it will be isolated from the PC's chassis. Be very careful with it because it will be very loose in there so don't try to plug/unplug the USB cable when the PC is running.

Further, see picture in here : http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=2838.msg30188#msg30188
for the wire in the NOS1 to be separated from where it's now. It is not soldered, only fixed under that bolt.

Happy weekend and take care of your woofers !
:)
Peter


PS: And later ask your wide to be creative so a plastic bracket is made from some bottle. http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=2838.msg29883#msg29883
But more solutions are shown around that post.

Great, Thanks!

I'll do it and report back.   :)

Gentlemen,

Do the Silverstone SST-EC04-P need additional power (4 pin Molex cable) or is it enough only to plug it into the MOB?

 :scratching:

I connected it to the PSU with the molex and if I remember well here is said that it has to be connected to the power supply.

Regards,
Juan

And what about driver?
-There is a disk packed together with the soundcard.
-Do I first have to take the PC out of "minimized mode" to complete the installation of the Silverstone?

I just tried it the easy way: Silverstone plugged into the MOB. No change of driver, no additional power cable. Plugged the USB from NOS DAC and it works!

Seems I got away from this DIY project with minimal effort  :)

One down, one to go: Next step is removing the ground wire inside the NOS.

Silverstone card http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=2844.0 (http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=2844.0)

Juan

Pedal, you don't want to lift the NOS1 ground wire until you insulate the USB card grounding from your PC. Peter has warned about that and, before he did, I tried just lifting the ground in the NOS1 and I had a terrible booming noise in the middle of the night! Woke me up it was so loud.

So far so good:

I installed the Silverstone without bracket.
Added some isolation tape around the USB sockets. See photo.
Silverstone worked with the first song, but after rebooting it lost connection with the NOS1, so I had to search my basement for a spare pc-cable. See photo.

Then I disconnected the earth cable inside the NOS1 and now it seems to work and play as it should.

Thanks for the help, guys!

----------------

And what about the sound quality?
It is faster and cleaner in a positive sense. I can play loader. Bass is very tight and detailed, but less prominent.

But I miss a little "ease" and natural flow. Maybe it can be re-gained with some other settings. This will require further listening. It's a pitty with all those screws on the NOS1 cabinet. A simple ground-lift switch on the DAC chassis would have been convenient.

PS: With the ground-lifted Silverstone setup the NOS1 sometimes disappears as the selected "device" in XX settings.

UPDATE: The Silverstone (ground-lifted both ends) lasted only 5 songs in my system, before I went back to the usual USB3 from the PC MOB.

First impression is that the Silverstone emphasizes the presence/treble, while at the some time (or as a function of), the bass is less prominent.

In short: Floating Silverstone appeals to my brain, my previous setup appeals to my heart. Heart wins.

At the moment listening with MOB USB3 + floating NOS1: Treble more in line now, but I *think* (not sure) if the bass is as solid and dynamic as I remember it with normal (unlifted) ground inside NOS1.

Anyway, gotta listen further of course, before any final verdict.

Be VERY careful with USB ground left lifted inside NOS1 and USB cable connecting other USB3 port (than Silverstone card).
Peter already warned on this situation - can lead to frying NOS1's USB receiver...

Thanks, nik.d, I just put my screwdriver to work and voila! I am back where I started this morning: MOB USB3 and everything grounded - and - not to forget; The music is sweet as ever!

The qualities which Silverstone REMOVED are back: Slightly dark sound, full bodied, punchy and slightly "resonant" bass and that over-all "ease". Hey, even the soundscape is wider and more interesting.

So, it seems that the success of SS is highly system dependent.
I have high power amplifiers with very high band width, DC-coupled and everything balanced/XLR connected. All components star-connected to the same filtered 220V outlet, fed from a dedicated 40A line. -So, on one hand my electronics are sensitive to ground loops and such nastiness, but on the other hand, I have dealt with and solved those issues to a large degree. Experimenting with ground within a system can be a lottery...   :)

Pedal - I don't think so;
This is a 1.186 bug. Deactivate all your non-NOS1 Sound Devices while in Normal OS Mode (under the small speaker icon in the Taskbar Tray) but leave one unconnected digital device (like HD Audio) and make *that* the default one (rightclick - set as default).
Now while in MinOs Mode this should not happen anymore.

Regards,
Peter

Hey Pedal, glad to hear you like the USB3 MB connection cause that's the way I do it too. I've always been so satisfied with it that I've indefinitely "put off" trying the Silverstone.

Yea, Boleary, I don't know why, but the Silverstone didn't succeed in my set up.

But who cares? The present SQ with 1.186 is phenomenal! I have been in all day playing a wide selection of music: Peter Gabriel, Johnny Cash, Bill Evans, Terje Rypdal, Pink Floyd, Gli Scapoli and several others. And most of them full albums till the very last song. Never had this kind of realism before. I am so happy!

Hi Peter,

It had been a long time since I attempted isolation of the Silverstone USB card & now with the addition of RAM OS disk, I thought I should reattempt it.

Just needed to confirm that switch #3 at NOS 1a to be put "up" means the "on" position...right?

Best regards,

Arvind

Hi Arvind,

Very good that you ask;
No, down is always On. On in this case means : (ground) connected.

Ok ?

Best regards,
Peter

Seen from the outside to inside:
1. Display.
2. Power to DAC section (unrelated to power supplies and USB).
3. (ground) connected.
4. DC Offset Check (metering in the left leg). Needs 9V battery to be connected.
5. 705600/768000 input. Windows only and when player supports it (XXHighEnd, HQPlayer).

I've always trouble to memorize these buttons!  :wacko2: :wacko2: :wacko2:

Hi Peter,

Attached is a picture of the switches. Is this the correct position of sw#3 after isolation? Switch #1 is on the right of the picture.

Should I expect change in DC offset values from the std values.

Best regards,

Arvind

Hahaha !
A bit hard to see in this large picture, but nice photo !

So your #3 is Down, meaning On, meaning ground wire is connected. This is NOT the idea with the NOS1a (however, everybody can decide for himself, of course). So with the NOS1a (not the NOS1) the ground wire better is not connected because now the isolation is complete. Thus, the "a" is isolated and with the wire connected, the connection is there again via the back door (the interlinks).

Thus, #3 should be Up for the "a".

That we also isolate the Silverstone is something else, but that is consistent with this.

That we next also use an Intona Isolator is unrelated (to above meant "consistency"), that is, as far as I can tell or thought about.

Ok ?

Regards,
Peter

Hi Peter,

I will disconnect the black wire in the NOS 1a so will keep the #3 up ( not as in picture) & give it a go.

Meanwhile what changes should I expect in the DC offset values as compared to std values?

Thanks.

Best regards,

Arvind

Sorry - forgot to answer that;
None.


:nea::nea::nea::nea::nea::nea::nea::nea::nea::nea::nea::nea::nea::nea::nea::nea::nea::nea::nea:

That switch accomplishes that disconnect.
Up = Disconnect.
Down = Connect.

There is nothing else, except for that wire itself. Cut that and the switch is useless.

Clear now ?
haha

Peter

Thank you Peter. I am going ahead with the isolation at PC as well as the NOS 1a.

Let's hope it improves the SQ.

Cheers.

Arvind,


I read this again and suddenly it reads differently ...
I think I must apologise because you were proposing it correctly. It is just a langue matter ...
(and what I read in it at first, was that you also were going to cut the wire)

Regards,
Peter

Hi Peter,

There seems to be some issue with the DC offset values:

Std values -4.6/-10.3
Not isolated -4.8/-10.8
Not isolated with music playing - no data available
After isolation without music playing -5.2/-11.2
After isolation with music playing fluctuates wildly -4.6 to -6/-10.2 to -12.

Is this normal?

Best regards,

Arvind

PS: I have isolated Silverstone as well as NOS 1a.

Arvind,

About the music playing : that is normal !
... and now you can also learn what a blocking capacitor would do : hold back of that low bass information (because that is what close to DC is).
So what you see is the bouncing of the wave, but mind the refresh rate of the meters (1/3 of a second IIRC). If you watch it, especially with more "pumping" LF music, you can see it fluctuate on the beat.

All your other values are perfectly normal and that small difference you noticed I call "no difference" (technically there is a small difference of course).
Also don't underestimate the difference between cold and already 30 seconds later (now On) and 5 minutes later. And that each year of "burn in" also creates 1/10th or so.

Really, all fine !
Peter

I have one clarifying question.  I have the NOS 1a.  I do not know if the USB card is isolated since it is an XXHE PC that I got from the previous owner (Joel).  I will open up the PC and check, but my guess is that it is NOT because the XXHE PC does not ship that way and Joel did not do anything.

Is it safe to have Switch #3 UP (disconnect).  I was doing this until one day I had a very loud BANG, music stopped,and when I checked the DC offset the meters were blank.  I had to restart everything to get going again, and assumed that maybe this was related to Switch #3 being UP and the USB card not being isolated. 

But maybe it is not related at all.  It certainly made me nervous though because the BANG was quite loud, and the only time in my life I have heard this before is when DC went straight through to the speakers and fried the drivers.


Ramesh

Ramesh, easy enough ... if we did it, it will look like you see in here : Re: USB to PC chassis ground ? (noise) - Bracket (http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=2838.msg29883#msg29883)

I'd say that when #3 is Up and normaly connected to the PC (not isolated there) and the DC Offset reads fine, that first something needs to happen "externally" before the DC Offset changes.
Anyway the only case we know of is Brian's (boleary) and he responded in that other (?) topic somewhere, last week IIRC. But as far as I know he did not suffer from any "bang" as such, but from instable DC Offset (wildly varying) because of a lost ground connection (the latter is what I envision with it). Can be PC shut down or USB failure or something else in that area. To him it happened at night, while he was sleeping.

I'd also say that when this happened to you, you first did something yourself (making "connections" somewhere), OR you did not pay attention to the meters in the first place (one time per boot-up (or down !) of anything in the chain is sufficient) and with a fairly large DC offset to begin with, you hit the ceiling of the voltage rails during playing.
Thus, say the voltage rails is 5V which normally is needed to play within (signal varies from -5V to +5V and is controlled to be within those limits). Now you have a DC Offset of 1V and the signal still requires 5V, at some stage. Regard 6V necessary now, which is not available. Now there is a large "clip" which can be regarded square (sine (sinus) of the voltage is cut at the top). This is a kind of bang or loud tick in itself and it can cause the amplifier to react strange. And *that* can cause the real bang. Hey, in my view.

Regards,
Peter

PS: If you can hear lights switch on through the speakers, or a fridge and such, check for a missing ground in your audio somewhere (NOS1a not necessary :)).