XXHighEnd

I see that there is a tendency to eliminate as far as possible the fans to make a silent pc. I'm not sure if anyone has put a post about how to configure a PC to make it completely silent, I mean, how to build it up and with what case, motherboard, power supply etc. I´m not talking now about the subsequent modifications in the bios and software, I´m talking about the hardware needed to build it.
This is the reason why I start this new topic. Anyone looking to build a silent pc for XXHighEnd can post his questions and doubts here and the ones that know how to do it please put some pictures, if possible, to explain better how to do it.
I'm going also to try to build a silent pc but at this moment I´m not sure how I can remove all the fans. I´m thinking on water cooling but I see that it also uses fans. At this point I have all the hard drives outside the PC box, the graphics card I use now is a little one, passive, that don´t need much cooling, so if I use a fanless power supply then I´d only need to cool the CPU and motherboard. This could be a good starting point: how to refrigerate the CPU without fans.

I hope your help, especially from those ones who have more sophisticated PCs and that already have made them as silent as possible or even better a totally silent PC.

Best regards,
Juan

Hi Juan,

I don't see any way other than watercooling or fans to cool a 135w processor, especially the i7-3930K because if I believe what I read it actually runs warmer than spec (170W) although it can be underclocked to reduce heat.  I am new to NOS1 and XXHighEnd (my NOS1 is on its way to me now - thanks Peter) but in my computer build for XX I have replaced the i7 6-core 135w with a Xeon 8-core 70w 1.8Ghz processor that should be a whole lot easier to passively cool with heatpipes and heatsinks should I want to in the future.

The best passive cooling case that I can find seems to be rated to 95w TDP but recommended to 75w.  Even with a 70w processor such as that Xeon I am still not comfortable enough to underclock and cross my fingers that all will be ok in that case.  Up until now I have been running JPlay on a passively cooled pc running a 45w TDP i7 and would not have wanted the temperatures any warmer because I think that the cooler we can keep the PC the more stable the sound will be (I often thought my passively cooled PC sounded best when it was cool).

In the absence of a decent passively cooled case that can take an ATX psu that leaves us with a diy case with great big aluminium heatsinks on the outside, vents in the top, and heat tubes to get the cpu heat to the heatsinks.  That is a lot more work but I am sure it can be done without resorting to watercooling.

Anthony

Hi Juan,

As far as I am concerned, I have considered the cooling necessity from fans as a "trade off". Up to now and even if I have a relative 20C in the room, from what I experienced, I can't eliminate the fans. I even had to increase the CPU fan speed a little to maintain a temperature at 40C maximum, even if I reduced the CPU speed at around 1MHZ.

It seems to me that there is the water cooled system way OR the 12V linear power supply for the fans. The LPSU way would require a fan controller (like the one that Peter has put in the XXHE PC). Being powered from "outside", it would at least not "pollute" the system.

Just a thought :)

Alain
PS: Maybe a linear PSU is not absolutely needed for this ? As long as the power supply is "external" (from the pc circuitry), if it is plugged on another ring than the one from the PC, it could be a cheap alternative ?

FYI:

I will be opening a separate forum board soon for the "XXHighEnd PC". This is dedicated to the PC we build. So, you might want to wait for that. Notice though that with the 135W processors this is to-tal-ly silent and doesn't need underclocking at all (even overzlocking is allowed). Temperature is just above 40C / 104F at ambient temperature of 22C / 72F.

I will open the board because by now too many people own such a PC and the possible tweaks are too great to leave them be for me alone.

In the mean time please continue here if you like.
Regards,
Peter

I would like to point out an issue. What is the reason to prefer a fanless pc?.

There are two main reasons in my opinion:

a- 0dB noise

b-to eliminate the negative influence on the SQ produced by the fans.

So far I've been using a pc with fans but the level that the evolution of XXHighEnd has reached requires also an evolution in the hardware to be at its height. An important step in this direction is to remove all the hardware that is not essential and the optimization of this hardware to achieve an SQ with all the possibilities that this day offers XXHigEnd. Especially if we think in the tandem XXHighEnd/NOS1.

About a silent pc I can think of three different paths:


1 - Adapt a normal pc to a silent pc

These would be in my opinion the steps to follow:

a-Remove all the hard drives inside the PC case and place them in aluminum boxes or in another way that allows passive ventilation. Connect to PC via USB 3.0 and eSata. The use of a linear power supply for these hdd seems also to enhance the SQ.

b-Use an SSD for the OS and XXHE. Although the noise produced by an external hdd placed in a box is negligible, so also this option is feasible.

c-Use ramdisck for XXHE and Playback Drive. Placed in memory decreases the influence of if XXHE is originally located on a HDD or an SSD. With respect to the Playback Drive to place it in memory avoid another hdd.
Once loaded the data (music) in the Playback Drive that is in memory (ramdisk) the hdd can be disconnect.

d-Use a fanless power supply. Again the use of a linear power could also enhance the SQ.

e-Use a small passive VGA since it is not required a high performance in this regard.

f-Use of a water cooling system with a tower and place it outside the listening room eg the Zalman Reserator 1 V2 (not sure if it is still in production) http://zalman.com/global/product/Product_Read.php?Idx=183 (http://zalman.com/global/product/Product_Read.php?Idx=183)

g-Downsize the PC performance (CPU and RAM frequency), which in turn seems to favor the SQ, so the need for cooling is less demanding and can use other passive CPU coolers, such as eg Zalman FX 100 which allows TDP (Thermal Design Power) of up to 95W without fan (http://www.cpu-world.com/Glossary/T/Thermal_Design_Power_(TDP).html (http://www.cpu-world.com/Glossary/T/Thermal_Design_Power_(TDP).html)):
Zalman FX 100 http://www.zalman.com/global/product/Product_Read.php?Idx=782 (http://www.zalman.com/global/product/Product_Read.php?Idx=782)


2 - Use a silent pc made entirely from the start

There are several types of computers created from the start as silent pc, obviously need some adaptations to use them for XXHighEnd:

Quiet PC Fanless Media PC Sidewinder:http://www.quietpc.com/sys-sidewinder (http://www.quietpc.com/sys-sidewinder)

Goodwin Fanless Music Server: http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/std/sku=fanless_music_server (http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/std/sku=fanless_music_server)

CAPS: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/section/c-p-s-489/ (http://www.computeraudiophile.com/section/c-p-s-489/)

Intense fit PC: http://www.fit-pc.com/web/fit-pc/intensepc/ (http://www.fit-pc.com/web/fit-pc/intensepc/)


3 - XXHighEnd Pc

This is undoubtedly the best option for those who do not want to build its own pc. I wait eagerly for the new forum board about Peter´s silent pc and see if some of his findings could be applicable to the ones who prefer to build its own silent pc.


Best regards,
Juan

Hi guys,

SQ wise I think fanless is a good place to be.

Its not too difficult to run without fans. Paul and I have been doing this for some time now without problems.

Water cooking EDIT cooling  :) the CPU is the key then it doesn’t matter what CPU is used or the speed it is running at. I use this system, which unfortunately is no longer available. I think there are other forum members using them too. It would be worth trying to get one second had if new is not availble there are a very nice system. There are no fans just a pump inside the cooling tower which runs from the mains not the PC ATx PSU.

http://zalman.com/global/product/Product_Read.php?Idx=183

ATx supplies are not too much of a problem I used the Corsiar AX750 but the 400w Seasonic fanless PSU has taken over now pwering a 3930 CPU with an all up (mains measured) wattage of about 125W its not really getting warm.

For graphics I use one of the NVIDA 210 chipset passively cooled cards. I have just changed one EVGA brand card for an Asus 210 Silent card which is nicely engineered (thanks Paul for the recommendation). These cards do run a little on the hot side but they are cheap so if they do expire there is not too much of a problem. If you want to it’s possible to place these VGA cards on the water CPU circuit by adding a VGA card water cooking EDIT cooling  :) head which I did for a while but don’t bother now as the heat is not too much of a problem.

http://www.asus.com/Graphics_Cards/EN210_SILENTDI1GD3V2LP/

My mobo is a P9X79WS Asus which has a lot of power phases etc on so it does get reasonably warm. Even so it relies on passive air flow to cool the board in the PC case. The PC case is a Fractal Design R4 which as a number of removable panels which allows for resonably good air flow through grills in the case. I think Pauls case is perhaps a bit better for grill area but the Fractal works ok.

http://www.fractal-design.com/?view=product&category=2&prod=100

I would say the main things are to get water cooling sorted and choose a sensible case for air flow. Otherwise its not too hard to do and it is good for SQ. We have had a hot spell in the UK for a couple of months with outdoor temps getting into the 30s and indoor high 20s. The PC has been on much of the time and besides getting gentaly warm has not had any problems.

Cheers ,

Nick

Thanks Nick, do you know if there is some other water cooling system without fan like the Zalman Reserator 1 V2?

Juan

Dear Peter,

Any news here?

------------------------

I am keen on getting me an "ultimate" PC for music playback only. Tailored to work with your NOS1 DAC, of course and nothing else.

On my wish list, there are:
*Linear power supply. (No switching PSU what so ever).
*MotherBoard same as you, so I can simply copy your settings whenever you improve your settings.  ;)

-It seems the linear PSU is the difficult part to find. Here is one alternative, not that expensive, but it outputs only 35watt each voltage: £349 Item Audio Tri-Linear ATX PSU (http://www.itemaudio.com/index.php/power-supplies/linear-psus/detail/28-linear-psus/flypage/311-tri-linear-atx-psu.html?sef=hcfp). -Narrowing down the choice of processor.

What to do?  :scratching:

PS: Seems that "Lab PSU units like the Item Audio Tri-Linear" are to be avoided, since the rotary knobs easily can change the voltage accidently and ruin your whole PC.

Here is a relevant thread from another forum. Some DIY guys exploring exactly the same trail as us: http://jplay.eu/forum/computer-audio/linear-power-supply-for-pico-psu-anyone-done-this/ (http://jplay.eu/forum/computer-audio/linear-power-supply-for-pico-psu-anyone-done-this/)

Pedal, forget about that PSU. A 35W processor ? Better count 135W for what you are looking for.

I never opened that forum board (yet) because it will create too much work for us once in the open.
I a not sure whether you just want to order one, but in that case ... allowed of course.
And that board will be there. First finishing some speakers ... :) (and a board for that)

Best regards,
Peter

Hi Peter,

In my pre NOS1/XXHE days I played with a linear psu and it did make a difference on the PC.  Is it your position that it could make a difference?  Or is it your position that if it does make a difference that something else is wrong?

When selecting the SMPS psu for my XXHE PC I followed your recommendation for the BeQuiet L7 530w because you had measured it somehow and determined that it does not spew too much hash back into the mains (I read that on this forum somewhere).  If we have a SMPS that works like that, where do you think the gains of linear supplies for a PC may lie?

Or is that a can of worms you would prefer not to open?

Regards,

Anthony

Anthony,

If I may,


135W is peak constant power... for the CPU only. Not when XX is running, but on booting...

This alone will fry the powersupply. Then there will be a videocard, memory and motherboard chips, all consuming watts. All summing up to a very weird powerconsumption between almost nothing and a lot.

A stable linear PSU that will do 12V @ 20Amps (that is like a safe rating) will be huge and very hot when challenged. You could parallell several smaller (linear lab) powersupplies but how do you make shure they are loaded evenly? I think most professional gear doing this kind of trick is 100% with a switched supply.

Linear PSU are fine for mac minis, laptops, energy efficient i3s, Atoms, etc. Not for "monster"PCs.

Also the motherboard itself got switching transistors to convert the 12V to 1.xx Volt that the CPU needs. You really can't get away from switching supplies.

But I have a hunch that the switching supplies are more gentile (inefficient) to the powerline when fed from a transformer. Most supplies have Powerfactor correction these days for compliance and energy saving. This couples the loading of the PC almost perfectly to the powerline.
A "linear" transformer at the input will decouple (filter?) all this stuff a bit so less noise on the line. Ideally for audio would probably to ditch the PFC and input rectifier and feed the primary voltage from a transformer and recitifier bridge. You will still need an enormous transformer to avoid sagging and the PSU loosing function.

Just some thoughts.

If you want simple and still good sound, buy a premium seasonic or something.

regards, Coen

Hi Coen,

I think the i7-3930K will use a lot more than its 135w TDP...I have seen a figure around 170w somewhere or other.  My JPlay PC (when I had it) would draw less than 2A when running but would peak somewhere around 5A when shutting down (only 4A as startup).  Most PC's use more power shutting down than starting up, which seems strange.

Anthony

Check.

The 135 Watts is for power heat dissipation (TDP: Thermal Design Power), brief powerpeaks of 170 W should be within this thermal limit (think of a low duty cycle). Thats why you should have a safety margin on the PSU side.

The Jplay PC was/is kind of minimal wasn't it?

Windows does shut off and stores lot of stuff when powering down.

regards, Coen

Yeah, the JPlay pc was minimalist compared to the XXHE pc but is still much more powerful than what many use for computer audio (i7-3770?, mini server board, server core 2012 etc.).  I ran the dual PC JPlay config that worked rather well but I think the XXHE approach is much more sensible in that one pc is used for both tasks, it just takes a little bit of time to switch between library and playback.

I have read elsewhere from guys such as John Swenson that once the USB is galvanically isolated and a FIFO buffer is used within the dac that usb cables fail to make much of an impact on sound quality, but that power supply on the computer does still make a difference.  My understanding of how Peter has isolated the USB input is that it is NOT galvanically isolated, but is a grounding arrangement (or some such thing).  The big unknown for me is whether this different approach still allows improved PC power to make an impact.

Cheers,

Anthony

OK.  I've just measured my XXHE pc power draw by plugging it into my office UPS. 

Startup 88w
Idle with XXHE open 58w
Music playing in unattended mode 49w
Shutdown 68w

If I was to experiment with a linear psu for this pc a Hynes 10A continuous voltage regulator feeding a 24v 160w pico type dc-dc converter would provide oodles of headroom.  Even a Hynes 5A reg should feed the dc-dc converter enough juice to run the XXHE pc.

Has anyone measured draw using the i7-3930k processor?  That would be an interesting comparison.

Anthony

Hi Anthony,

Don't forget to measure the usage in Normal OS; That will make a lot of difference ...

Peter


PS: More responses later.

Anthony,

Certainly not the latter (in my view).
I have been asked about the LPSU before and my answer was (and is) : I don't know. It is too complicated and too much is involved;


All we can do (indeed) is looking at it spitting back into the mains and next think how that by itself will influence the other devices. It may, it may not and that depends on those devices. Prevent the spitting back into the mains *is* something to better avoid of course. But whether really necessary ?

The can of worms emerges merely in the area Coen talked about. So, the PC will contain spades of voltage regulators and they all will be the most noisy. Now however, it is a matter of how dangerous that will be, thus now looking at the "output" of a PC, like USB is such an output (towards our further gear I mean).
Next thing though is that it is obvious to me that whatever noise is coming through there, it will be overwhelmed with what the DAC side creates for the very same connection/interface to operate. Thus, as long as that is in order, why to work on the better noise-free PC ? (but now in the voltage regulation department). And again next, when that is arranged for to some degree (like the NOS1 does this fairly well), NOW again the PC noise is in order. Sadly, and through my eyes, this should be so much less noise that at least I can not measure it. Well, not in-band, and it is not about in-band at all because in the end this is about jitter influence.

And then to think we can already influence sound by PC-processor (etc.) influence ? This should be way under the level of noise the regulators produce.

All remains relative, because when a NOS1's output noise of 8uV goes down to 0.5uV (theoretically possible) we might start to see PC noise (explicitly influenced or not) at the outputs. May, because that 0.5uV will be about rejection largely, and this all may happen only after the interface, that interface thus still implying jitter because of its noise there.

All in other words : All is one big pile of influencing matters, and it can be expected that when one is solved the other emerges because it becomes profound and which might not even be for the better (different jitter spectrum).

And in the mean time the by far most of us struggle with analogue noise at the output side which now from that angle kills the sound.

We could also say that we all go a bit far with this all. It is, however, fairly important to see through what we should work on FIRST. I personally don't think this is any LPSU for a PC. Some general rules to avoid that analogue noise would be far better to work on (first). Sadly, I do not see how these rules are or should be. Make it inaudible by whatever means (all trial and error) at least allows us to have a workable target. But it is only the first step.
Working on "complete systems" which at least inherently won't show any of this noise is one means (like actually Bert and me propose this today) but this is a bit of a rough way.

Can talk on, but it's all of not much use unless someone likes to know my general opinion. So, FWIW ...

Peter


PS: I for sure will try out a LPSU for the PC once I could obtain one for a "try out" little price. We could even produce it for you all, once that price could remain that "litte price". So don't be surprised when sooner or later such a thing emerges, and I think I have been talking about this before (but that project failed somewhat).

Hey Nick


I thought you had ASRock now?

Paul

Hi Paul,

Your right, the post a page back in this thread was shortly before I changed the board.

Cheers,

Nick.

Thanks for your input Peter.  Yes, it is hard to know if modding computer power is a valid path now or at another stage.  I know it works in other systems and have seen a reasonably cheap and easy solution feeding three rails (12v, 5v, 3.3v) into the motherboard for a solid improvement in sound quality, but the question becomes whether it is all worthwhile. 

I think that I will play around with it a little.  How I plan to approach it is to get a good quality linear lab supply with 3 rails (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/HQ-Triple-O-P-Linear-DC-Power-Supply-Dual-LED-30V-5A-2/260686424661?rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222002%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D163%26meid%3D1638515024029346190%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D1088%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D350483199936%26) and poke power into different things and see what happens.  I have a feeling that directly feeding the ram will have a good impact (because I use a RAMdisk) but that requires some de-soldering on the mobo so I will leave that one alone for a while at least. 

If I can find a reasonable improvement using the lab supply then I will build or have built a higher quality supply for the computer.

I plugged my XXHE PC back into the UPS and re-ran my power draw numbers:

Power On                (minimised o/s) 88w  (normal o/s) 88w
Idle with XXHE open (minimised o/s) 58w (normal o/s) 78w
Playing Music           (minimised o/s) 49w (normal o/s) 58w
Shutting Down         (minimised o/s) 68w (normal o/s) 98w

Note that my UPS only updates the display about once a second so there may be peaks that I missed.  To try to counteract this I repeated each process several times.

Anthony

PS:  I think that this is a particularly good exercise for XXHE/NOS1 users because I think we mostly use the same mobo.  If there is someone else that wants to duplicate these experiments and possibly give some corroboration please put your hand up.

PSS:  Peter, should I start a new thread about developing an XXHE PC linear supply?

Hey Anthony, great thanks for your efforts there. So yes, quite a difference between Minimized and Normal OS eh ? And of course any PC will be in Normal OS at some stage(s) so this must be taken into account.


Could be interesting, yes. And I think you won't be the only one working on that. Maybe it takes a somewhat longer time before all really emerges, but it seems to be a trend anyway.

Thanks ...
Peter