XXHighEnd

Hi,

I'v experimented in the past on the power supplies and clocks of pci and pcie usb cards used to drive audio devices, oftern the results have been very posertive other times more "interesting". what is for sure is that pci and pcie power rail noise has a BIG effect on SQ and I think the periodicity (think buffer sizes) of the data being placed onto the PCIe bus also interacts with PCIe supply rial conditions to effect sound.

This card looked like a simple, fun way to experiment without having to mod my usb3 card. It's a passive bank of capacitors that bypasses the power 3.3 and 5v rails on the PCIe bus. The aim is to reduce rail noise for your sound critical PCIe cards. In my case i have a USB 3 card that connects to my NOS1 DAC, but it it should work for SPDIF cards or sound cards in other systems.

You just place the card into a vacant slot and that's it. The capacitor size choices look a bit odd but despite this IT WORKS..... and how !

Sound quality changes in my system comprise;

+ Wider deeper higher sound stage
+ Much more life like tone (voices strings etc)
+ Ability to track ver complex passages and not become confused (like a powerful amp or upgrading to a cartridge that track much better)
+ Bass goes down lower become more taught and very tuneful.

Quite a list I know, but the difference was heard in my system from the first note. This may spark conversations about "filters" but right now I think it moves the PC a big step forwards as a front end component. It might be that the cap values could be better tuned but card works.

I know Paul's card arrived recently and he may want to add more.

Available here and at cheap-fi money  :)

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ApeXi-Power-Filter-Card-for-Computer-Audio-Enhancement-For-PCI-and-PCI-E-Slots-/251232340488?pt=AU_Components&hash=item3a7e9d4a08

Cheers,

Nick.

 

Hey Nick, nice ...


I wouldn't mess with that, since it will be on purpose.


Bypasses ? Does it shunt the rails to ground or something ? (that looks like leading to a shortcut).
Wouldn't it be merely so that it's (the caps) just attached in parallel to the rails to smoothen the supply ?

Regards,
Peter

Peter hi,

Your right they are connected across the rails to smooth and reduce noise. Each 3.3 and 5 v rial (there are quite a few of them on the bus) has its own bank of caps.

Cheers,

Nick.

There was stock of four cards listed on the eBay link above when this post went up and now there are none left..... I wonder where they went so quickly :).

'hope there might be some more feedback on their sound coming soon.

Nick called me a couple of weeks ago about this. Such a brilliant simple idea and cheap enough so why not give it a try. Mine arrived last night so I quickly installed it. I rebooted and straight away there was an improvement. Overnight and today it is even better so here goes this is what I emailed to Nick last night ................


Immediately the improvement is very clear in my system (to these ears anyway). You mentioned HF roll off - well there is no HF roll off at all that I can hear - none, zippo, zilch. So that is great news because I was concerned about that.

What is very clear though is a significant reduction in edge or grain that I really did not think was there to start with. I have never really been satisfied with the way any hi fi system reproduces massed strings and whilst my system has gradually improved in this respect with all the improvements made over the last couple of years I could hear that it was not quite where I would want it to be. Well that is the area where I hear a significant improvement. Recordings I have been listening to recently have just become sooo good to listen to.

But it gets better. Immediately after installing the PCi card the sound was more clearly etched cleaner and clearer. The image depth is better & there are more subtleties in the sound. The subtleties are so tiny I just have to wonder what tiny voltages in the signal can now be heard.

And then there is the bass - the very first impression is that it might be reduced - but it is not - now I can hear subtle bass notes and changes that I could not hear before.

This is a significant improvement well to my ears anyway. Others who do not know my system may not hear the difference I sure as hell can.

It sounds just like the card is doing what it says on the tin - reducing the noise floor even further. I do wonder however if a system has to be in tip top condition to hear this kind of improvement - probably a year ago I would not have heard this improvement at all.

Anyway I am a very happy bunny

PS - there is no graphics card on my mobo so I use a PCi graphics card maybe that contributes to why I hear such a difference.

If you guys, Paul and Nick, think that this is worthwhile to try this power filter card  I´m going to order one. 35€ is not too much money if the improvement in SQ is as you said, as soon as I get it I´ll let you know my opinion.

Thanks to both of you,

Juan

I want one too!
But where to get it now there sold out?

I ordered mine on march 5 and it took three weeks to arrive. Sadly when I placed it in the slot I broke a solder point from the DAC chip  just placed in the slot under. I didn't realize then so I went crazy looking for the cause of the rigth channel failure.
Happily I could fix it at last, but since then I haven't had much time for a careful listening session. That is why I don't want to be very conclusive but if there any improvement it isn't very apparent to me. Maybe the reason in my case is that, as I pointed in a earlier post from march 4, my soundcard has a capacitors section called by the manufacturer "PC noise killer " that seems to be intended to do the same function.

Maxi

Is the Sotm USB PCIe doing the same ?

Alain hi

There will be an overlap in what the sotm and x-sound cards do. To an extent the Sotm applies the same approach in that the supplies taken from the pcie bus are better built on the card from a noise point of view than on a standard usb card. These supplies are designed to supply the sotm card itself though and not to generally reduce noise on the pcie power rails.

The x-sound will have more of an effect on the pcie bus rails generally this may help reduce noise from video cards and other parts of the pc.

Nick

Can I stirr a little ?

The SOtM will try to provide a better supply by means of less noise, so next the USB transmission out of the same card will carry less noise. This is an explicit thing, like better regulators and/or better caps.

The card Nick/Paul ordered ADD noise to the whole PCI/PCI-e bus. I called that "smoothen" in my earlier post, but they add noise. And as you know from me, that isn't nesessarily a bad thing;
Now all attached to the bus will be fed with less profound (high) frequencies.


Let's say that the "proof" of how I think about the latter honestly, is that I ordered 2 ...

:bye:
Peter

Hi!

Where can i buy this card?


Tore

After another night SQ has improved further. What strikes me probably above everything is just how tonally good instruments sound. Listening to an Arpeggione (I listened to it extensively before this mod so good for comparison) and the quality of the instrument shines. Now Bach Cello Suites the same thing and the tiny detail of the strings, better imaging smooth and clear.

Maybe there is noise but perhaps less spiky and more evenly distributed who knows - for sure it sounds good though.

P

Hi Nick, thanks for your very clear explanation :) I tried the link you provided, but it seems there are legal restrictions forbidding me to access this product...

Peter, my analogy may not be good, but would it be like "dithering" of some kind ? Bringing a better "diffusion" (distribution) of the noise spectrum ?

Alain

Paul, maybe you didn't get it;
Suppose your PCI bus draws such, that there's a (just making up something) 20MHz frequency, a 23.1MHz frequency and a 70MHz frequency hammering on everything. If you now add 20.1MHz, 20.2, 20.3, 20.4, etc. and fill all up up to 70MHz, there is no frequency anymore and it has become "flat noise".
The capacitors will sort of do this because of their (uncontrolled) frequency of loading.

No original peaks will drop because of this and the smoothening happens because the original frequencies can not be profound anymore.

But notice that this means of attacking noise is one big wild guess, because nobody tells how high the amplitudes of the original frequencies are and how high the added are. And you can bet that they are not evenly high by some sort of coincidence;
Now something else happens (has to happen to let it work out) and that is that the added noise must be higher in amplitude than the original. So, more noise really and it could be harmful theoretically. Higher noise but more random (more "real" noise).

To get the real picture (of what I mean and for what's *that* worth !), think about false harmonics (the THD figure); So, your NOS1 has a few and they are ~110dB down. Do we hear them ? possibly. How to solve it ? Add so much noise that the false harmonics vanish in the noise. And now they're really gone. Smart trick.


Yea ? I wouldn't count on that. Or better said : I wouldn't count on anything working really when that is the case. Thus, you are burning in capacitors and now the sound improves. Well, then it is only a matter of waiting until it degrades. And improves again, and degrades.
If you understand the theory (my theory) than you will agree that this is nothing to base your music reproduction on. You blame the washing machine on Monday morning, but actually a bank of caps is in a wild mood. And nicely resonate with eachother at an interval of a minute (slow judder).
But keep in mind, it is you who implied that described process is going on because sound improved. So which psychological way do you want to go ? haha

Mine won't burn in. I forbid them.
:swoon:
Peter


PS: Alain, -thus- Yes.

Where to buy :

http://www.360searchbuy.com/product/9221283886/%22Assi%22-Skittles-PC-HiFi+power+clean+sound+filter+cards+%28%3Cspan+class%3DH%3EAXF+%3C+span%3E-%3Cspan+class%3DH%3E104+%3C+span%3E%29

Don't ask me whether I'll ever receive something. Needs Mastercard, Visa or another obscure card.
Count on another 4 USD or so for shipping and credit card administration fee.

This is the cheapest :

http://www.360searchbuy.com/product/14884879283/Xsound-Skittles-PC-HiFi+purification+filter+the+power+supply+card+%28%3Cspan+class%3DH%3EAXF+%3C+span%3E-%3Cspan+class%3DH%3E104+%3C+span%3E%29

Don't blame me for anything !
Peter

Oh, there's a Pro and a normal version - FWIW. That "cheapest" I denoted is a normal version. The one(s) I bought is the Pro version (like Nick's is).

But I wouldn't count much on what you order is what you get through these (Chinese) routes.

What I see for difference is the Dale resistors on the Pro version. Not that I can see how better (matched ? / temperature independent ?) resistors will do a job here.
But possibly the capacitors are different, with the (my) logical thinking of better matching resonances.

Order made... :)

Then expect an email -not addressed to you- with an additional amount to pay because the weight superceeds "small package" or something. I just had to add 14 USD (but I ordered two).
And notice that something is mentioned about this in the order screen(s), and I thought "oh well".

The email was not addressed to my name, but was for me in the end. So now let's wait until my goodies are shipped to that someone else.

haha

Yes, I read that too :) But to make more confusion, I forgot my credit card password and had to redo the transaction. Then I saw that the 2 different orders were taken on my card, so I asked for one of them to be cancelled ;)

Talk about an exciting morning ;)

Sh%t!!, I ordered the normal one, in the ebay store they say nothing about other different pro version. The link provided by Nick drove me to the normal card not to the Pro one, probably they were sold out on the Pro version and were selling just the normal one. Price doesn´t seem very different though. I´ll can´t compare it anyway...

Juan

But you found it on eBay somewhere ?

And Juan, hey, Pro gear ... that's usually sh*t anyway !

(I mean, when you ordered through my link, I have an email address for you to correct things)

The 360searchbuy.com is a reliable website. I also bought  one pro version last month. The product's effect is satisfactory.

Thank you for mentioning !
Btw, I wasn't really saying that this isn't reliable, but merely tried to refer to the - as it looks to me - complicated "routes" with all auto-translations and such.

Again thanks, and welcome here of course.
Peter

Peter

The cards have a set of sized capacitors linking +rail voltages to PCIe ground. The caps do not seem to adopt the bypass with a 1/10 to 1/100 of the the next largest vale rule consistently which I why I mentioned them being somewhat randomly chosen values, but given to smallest values used I would expect them the present a low pass filter effective to high frequencies on the supply rails  (made less effective by track lengths etc).

I figured that this would both attenuate fundermantal noise frequencies and smooth transient current draw on the rails. The caps might also fire back their own resonant noise onto the rails, but surly there main effect will be attenuation and smoothing of transient current demands.

My card also significantly changes (improved) with burn in. Not difficult to hear the difference at all with use.

I have ordered a second card just to try two out at the same time. Proberbly the result will be resonance between the banks of caps but you never know  :)

Cheers,

Nick

Not sure I fully understand  - I can see how capacitors may change the frequency distribution and do so in an unpredictable way. I do not see how capacitors can just "add frequencies" (but I have probably have misunderstood you) because they cannot add energy without getting it from somewhere. For sure though they can and will change it.

Sound improving? well yea maybe my imagination playing tricks it would not be the first time ha ha but for sure and without any doubt it sounds good.

P

From the 2 links you mentionned, it would be the first one that is "PRO" ("DALE" resistors).

I might add that I was well served too :)

Now the waiting :)

Alain
PS: I would be interested to know if having two of them changes something for the better :)

Peter- I ordered the card through the link Nick provided, not yours, when I bought it yesterday it was still at least one for sale.

Now that I see that Nick is going to test two cards at the same time I´ll wait to order the Pro card in case of a favorable conclusion. Maybe at the end I´ll be lucky combining two cards with some different capacitors and resistors.

Juan

Second thought:
After listening Barshai's Shostakovich 9 and 10th, that always sounded a little bit harsh to me, I can say that now is  better. More separation between instruments and better overall sound, more listenable. Not spectacular but clearly noticeable. And at certain level even a little improvement is at the same time more difficult to reach and, therefore, more welcome.

BTW for those who have placed the card yet, Have you noticed the purple ligth in the dark? I had to remove the rear plate and the leds are quite intense so my PC is now cool tuned.  8)

Maxi

This is another place, a little cheaper, shipment is just $4,60. There are better pictures of both cards the normal one and the PRO, maybe someone can see differences:

http://www.buychina.com/items/asif-skittles-axf-104-diy-computer-chassis-noise-reduction-filter-card-hardware-optimized-power-purification-tpquvusmplm (http://www.buychina.com/items/asif-skittles-axf-104-diy-computer-chassis-noise-reduction-filter-card-hardware-optimized-power-purification-tpquvusmplm)

Juan

Hi Juan,

Thanks for the link :) Though I already have ordered mine, it is possible to see that one some pictures one can see  "AXF-104 Pro" and in other pictures it will only say "AXF-104"... The resistors are of different colours too, but who knows what the differences really are...

My guess is that if it has an effect, it should be obvious with any of them.

Alain

Yes, you are right.
Thanks Alain

Juan

I'm guessing this will not help my situation at all (AQ Dragonfly DAC plugged into regular USB port).  Are you folks saying this would help the NOS1?  Are you feeding it from a regular USB port or a PCIe sound card with a USB output??

Well I am sitting here listening to the Count and I have to say that I really do think that the SQ has improved since I first installed the PCi stuffed with caps. Of course there is no science or controlled conditions but s---t does this sound good. Maybe I am in a more mellow mood (red wine would be responsible for that ha ha) or maybe I am getting to recognise more of the difference - who knows but this just sounds the dogs b-----s.

Now my speakers are the scumbag bottom of the range of the HE AN/E range. Well maybe they perform somewhat better than that because of the Bybees which hang off the terminals (sorry Peter Qvortrup!!! and also sorry Peter S who does not believe in them?) but I just have to wonder what they would sound like if they were the most recent top of the range versions - now there is a thought!

Actually more to the point is what would they sound like with no crossover at all - now that would be interesting!! Maybe just maybe Peter in future will do all that crossover stuff in the digital domain - well that would be a big project but hey I can dream. But I can't help thinking that without the crossover the dogs really would be let out!!

P

Jud hi,

The NOS1 is connected to the pc via a usb interface. In my case I use a usb pcie card (eg not a mobo usb port) and the x-sound capacitor card works very.

The x-sound card has the potential to help your dragonfly setup provided that you are using a usb port on pci or pcie usb card. If you are using a mobo usb port it is unlikely to help.

It may be worth installing a usb 3 pcie card if you are not already using one. Many folks on the forum find this works better than mobo usb. Cards with the NEC usb 3 chipset seem to work very well. These cards are fully compatible with usb 2 devices.
Cheers,

Nick.

Well, the difference for sure is in the bracket with a slick outlet for the led inside for the Pro.
:scratching:

Don't underestimate the influence of light on sound.  :yes:

I Ordered one too.

Stanley

Try Toslink.
haha

 :grin:

Give me burn in! Received it this a.m. and have been listening for several hours. Sound has definitely changed for the better over time. Will let you know if I get washing machine blues..... :)

It's a significant boost is SQ. Guys, thanks so much for taking the time to post about it. Can't wait to hear what you have to say Peter after giving it a try! Oh, and let us know if two is better still. Thanks

Mine was sent 3 days ago.
Checked the mailbox 2 times today, but nothing.

:prankster:

Brian,

That's great, they do seem to take a day or three to burn in, so more improvements on the way. Let us know know what you think to the sq  when you have some hours on the  card  :)

Nick.

I received mine 2 days ago... apperently the Pro version too despite the picture showing the normal version. I have the nice brown resistors on it...!

Plugged it in yesterday and I can't hear any difference on top of the major differences I am still hearing with the renewed power cords...

It did not made it worse!

Perhaps I am doing too many things in one go but I have a big smile on my face all the time anyhow! ;-)

Bert

Bert, are you still on Windows 8 ?

Hi Bert,

Could you give some more information on your new power cords?
Curious.

Thanks

Stanley

I also did make new diy power cord . And IT make some difference .By request I can post a picture and details somewhere here .


S

No, no...back to W7 long time ago. I will update my signature... ;-)

Hi Stanley,

http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=2547.msg26357#msg26357

http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=2547.msg26364#msg26364

Just read through that topic further down.

Cheers,

Bert

Yikes! Got up this morning, turned on some tunes and suddenly it felt like vocals were being shouted at me. Yuck. Pulled the new card out, and, voila, all was right. Have now put it back in and am hoping the natural timbre of voices returns. For further context, I left the computer on last night, no music playing; night before all was off.

Then again, could be those washing machine blues!

....a little more context: Till last night the card seemed to make the music soudn better and better, was very impressed. Thought I could speed up burn in by leaving the PC on all night. But awoke to "Yikes!"

Yea, well, out of control tweaks. I recall I said something like that ?
:swoon:

What about leaving on your PC today the whole day and try it tonight ? Should be the same then. And now washing machines are excluded.

Btw, with this it can even be so that a brief power down (just 1 second) already cures it. Just as well that in a snap all can be destroyed. Just think about the lot running into a resonance it won't recover from (but will by detaching power).

Peter

Well, tried all of your suggestions Peter and washing machines are not the issue. It feels like it's malfunctioned, voices have a terrible glaze. Will wait to see other's experiences before ordering another one. Peter, thanks for your input.

Brian hi,

We have the same mother board etc and I am not getting the symptoms you describe, could the problem could be unrelated to the x-sound card ? Does the sound get back to normal if the card is removed  ?

I received my second card in the post today, I fitted it and i think there may be a cumulative improvement. I need to a b sound quality with the second card to check its effect however because a lot of other stuff has been changing with my new amplifier build.

Regards,

Nick.

Hi Brian,

Thinking about my own description earlier in the topic of how this works (should work for the better) it's one big lottery. Nothing will be malfunctioning but bad luck on the "resonance" can easily be your part. The capacitors just add noise to everything and each does it at its own rythm (1000s of times per second).
It is more complex because while their loading adds noise, they also contribute to the supply they drain (draw) upon themselves (contribute in parallel to the normal supply).

If you are unlucky today you may be lucky next week. And the other way around. Capacitors wear.
This, btw, is also why capacitors need to stay way cool, like the under 40C/104F in the NOS1; They last a 100 times longer than what they are rated for (often at 65C/1149F) which is for a reason (work is less hard at lower temperatures). So ... when your voices start to shout with the PC being on longer, it's probably because it's more hot in there than earlier. Just guessing for a reason ...

This would not be my tweak (though I ordered 2 :swoon:).

Peter

Did you try different PCI or PCI-E slots?

Renards, Coen

OK, what would be?  (Please don't say "magic feet."  :no: )

You tempt me. By pure coincidence or other magic, I just create those myself only 5 days back. But I won't say anything about it because of course it is a :secret:.
:yes:

Yes, as soon as the card is removed the natural timbre of voices returns. I'll give Cohen's suggestion of changing slots a try tonight. Thanks to all for your input!

Hi,

I have now had some time to do A B comparisons on the use of 1 or 2 X-Sound cards fitted on my PCIe bus.

I find that using one card I still hear the positive change in sound quality that I described earlier in the post compared with not having as X-Sound card fitted.

When a second X-Sound card is added, the prominence of high frequencies drops and there is a corresponding loss of presence and detail. The sound is slightly dull relative to the using one card.

Regards,

Nick.

Thanks for the update Nick. Well mine has definitely malfunctioned. Yesterday I put it back in and after an hour I got this terrible low frequency popping--thought I was going to blow a speaker. Took the card out and played problem free for hours. Am tempted to order another cause the sound was so good until the day I left the pc on, no music playing. Thats when vocals turned to shouts and it never recovered. It would be great if others besides Nick, Paul and Bert would post your respective findings. Peter?

I´ve received the card, at the end it was the Pro version. What I´d like to know is if the card is correctly installed and detected by the system, I looked at the bios but I can´t see nothing neither in the Device Manager. The light in the card is ON, that´s it.
In general the sound seems to be clearer and the bass tighter with more nuances. However I´d like to be sure that the system has detected the card.

Juan

I think mine won't arrive. :dntknw:

But Brian, these pops as you described them, where they during playback only ?

Juan, the card is "nothing". It contains no logic. Only a bunch of capacitors paralelling the PCI voltage rails.

Regards,
Peter

Ok, I understand. After half an hour or so and as a first impression I confirm that there is an improvement in the sound. More clearer and not bright at all, in my opinion a good acquisition and another step ahead in SQ. I´ll see the evolution after a few days but so far the change is noticeable for the better.

Thank you for this good idea Nick,

Juan

The popping started during playback. I stopped XX and the popping stopped for a few seconds but then came back. Turned off th PC, removed the card, restarted and played incident free for hours.

Has anyone besides me left the pc on for hours, no music playing and then had no problems?

The popping you describe sounds like some kind of oscillation. Could be a malfunctioning capacitor or resistor though.

Anyway are the any psu wires in the vicinity of the card?

Regards, Coen

Cohen, no psu wires but i did move the card to slot #1 which is perpendicular with my memory modules, so close that they (memory and X card) almost touch. Could that cause the oscillation you describe?

Memory can really get some warmer ...

I may have another tweak ...

The position of the card on the bus can be important. Imagine current flowing from, say, left to right, then I suppose that the card should be on the farmost left slot. Or put this the other way around : it could have zero effect when put in the rightmost slot. In the middle it would only serve the slots to the right of it.

Now before someone asks "Peter, how to orient the MoBo so we see the left ?" ... don't ask me. And possibly each slot has its own PCB traces which makes my tweak rather moot (but it can still make a difference). Anyway, I'd try both ends of the bus, when possible.

Peter

After around 100 hours with the card installed I can confirm the sound differences. Without the card the sound seems bigger in some way but it looks like if it would have a cottony texture, I mean it looks soft and poorly defined by comparison. By contrast with the card installed the sound is clearer and with much more defined edges.
At the end I think it is worthwhile to have the card, the difference in SQ is noticeable.

Juan

Thanks Juan-your helping to tip the scales in favor of me buying another card.

I hope you have better luck with a new card

Juan

Hey Peter, haven´t you received the card yet?

Juan

Hi Juan,

It did in the morning I left for a small vacation. Haven't had a chance to try it. But I will soon now because to all comes an end, like this vacation.

Regards,
Peter

So, anyone with latest findings regarding the board ?

The last time I checked the sound with and without the card I realized that the soundstage is bigger, the sound is clearer and with more detail with it installed.

Hey Peter, I am prepared to receive a totally opposite opinion to mine, jeje 

Best regards,
Juan

I just recently inserted the pro card in the pc. I used the pci slot nearest to the processor.
My first impressions are that bass quality improved significantly as well that the sound seemed clearer and slightly better (more naturally) organised. Another good sign is that there is no shrinking of sound "image size".
Otoh on the downside I've got some sharp silibants on some recordings. These are fortunately rendered very fine and less obtrusive than those of a regular cd player for instance. Maybe some burn in will make a difference later.

For now I consider the card a worthwile addition in my system.

Regards, Coen

I ordered mine on April 13 and haven't received it yet  :15a:
Probably lost in the noise?

Stanley

Nothing more to add about my card it sounds better with it installed so it has remained.

P

My card started out sounding better but then something happened and it sounds terrible. Am pretty sure it malfunctioned and never recovered.

I've just quickly skimmed through this thread and would like to try the card myself. But the original eBay link is no longer current, and a general Google search isn't very helpful. So, where can one acquire such a card nowadays?

Cheers, Mani.

Hi Mani,

I ordered mine at: buychina.com.
Deliverytime about four weeks, Good price!
Succes,

Ed

This one should be easier, could not find it anymore!

http://www.buychina.com/products?keyword=%22Assi%22+rainbow+sugar&cid=11 

Thanks Ed. I'll see if I can order one from them.

Cheers, Mani.

I ordered and received the card from one of the links in Peter's post (the pro one) a while ago on a whim, but no, I haven't installed it yet.  I've got some time coming up in June when I can be more attentive.  also, to tell the truth Bolery  got me a bit worried and I was hanging back waiting for more feedback, but I'll make the leap as soon as I have time.

I installed mine (one of them) in one of my PCs yesterday. And ... Will report after (or in the middle of) the listening session tonight.

At this moment it's in the PC for 24 hours and it has been on all the time.

All right ...

Well, if this isn't doing anything I'll eat something which is bad for my health;

What I didn't tell is that I bought mine explicitly for the W8 PC (a "XXHighEnd PC") to see whether it would do what IMO should be done : getting rid of (for W8 too much) profound noise (and I bought two so the other one can be in my W7 audio PC).

The result is actually unbelievable, unless I suddenly need ear surgery.

The remainder is layed out in our famous W8 topic : Re: My first Windows 8 experience - Nailed it !? (http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=2421.msg26705#msg26705)

One thing to add : While the card is in the PCI buss, this PC further has nothing in there. Only in the PCIe buss there's a video card. That's all.

Peter

Peter, I've been patiently waiting for your post here and, of course, what i expected doesn't come close to your findings! Anyway, am wondering what your opinion of the card's effect is with W7?

Looks like i'll be ordering a new one today.

Peter hi,

Great !

The card is not subtle in what it does that's for sure. Personally I think there may just be the slightest loss of air in the presentation, as others have mentioned as well but the positive effects are overwhelminging worth the very very small trade off. The card is a key part of my setup now with a spare standing buy just in case :-)

EDIT - now that i have read Peters W8 update.

Very good to hear also that W8 is so much improved, i can't wait  might have to give that a go again !

Cheers nick.

Ps sound WILL improve with burn in over the next week or so.

Now I don't know anymore where tho post this; in here or in the Windows 8 topic ...

Actually it's odd. So with reference to the W8 topic (see link in my previous post in here) and with the emphasis on me talking about Windows 8 only (which you can't do really because of XXHighEnd W8 improvements I am using), there seemed to be no way I could receive the sound from the earlier two days (which summarizes to very refined highs and no "hard" dynamics at all anymore for W8 - finally);

Yesterday - I don't know what happened - the sound was totally different again. No such thing as refined highs was left of it. However, as I remarked in the W8 topic "a gap between good mid and highs" ... this has totally shifted. So, the refined top end moved down towards the mid and "refined" changed into more rough mid-high with the emphasis on "rough". A mere on-off sound noticeable in cymbals.
Fact is : net I like this much better. :scratching:

The effect of it is that cymbals are less in the back (which they were the first two ays). Now they are merely overly profound. Also, the general colour of them more resembles reality.
But actually I can't describe this sound, probably because it is right in a strange way;

The general consensus from last night is that the sound was dominated by cymbals. But, in reality this is no different (acoustical performance assumed). Also, for 4 hours in a row it didn't disturb. It was sort of the other way around : each 5 minutes it slipped to my mind how it was possible that this was not disturbing. And each time the kind of answer was "yea, but this is the same with a live performance".
The most noticable, though, was that while this was the same W8 I never could stand at louder levels at all, the "anomalies" from before were not there at all. *If* they were there they were in the inherent sound of cymbals; their power at sustained level (vs. the hurting of the attacks from earlier "W8").

I think I have to say that the sound changed as dramatically as what I talked about from the first impression at day 1 (day 2 the sound did not change).
We (like Nick) tend to call this "burn in". But guys, please trust me, what happens is nothing less like I described earlier in this topic : a changed resonance behavior of the capacitors and will will never get in our control. Maybe nice if you want a different sound each day. :swoon:

I'm afraid boleary is right : this can happen to everyone, or it *will* happen to everyone at some stage. Only with a large dose of luck it all may end up in a stable fashion (each day the same) *and* with performance you like. But just as well it can end up in a stable fashion you don't like at all (say in my case it can revert to the sound of the first 2 days, and I would be less happy).

Quite another thing is that apparantly this is a super tweak in the base. Undoubtedly it is one of the largest sound influencers imaginable. But how to get it under control ?

Here's a small annecdotical story, which right away confirms why I can "know" a bit of this appliance. Maybe Nick can judge it well, him being in the similar field of tweaking regarding the NOS1. So I will address Nick explicitly, meaning that not everybody should open their NOS1 :

Nick, look again at the gain stage of the NOS1; You will see two input capacitors, one for each channel. Might you remember ... compare this to the old gain stage of the original NOS1; there you could detect 6 of these caps. Actually these 6 (3x 2) were further down the line on the PCB for the three "electrical stages" on there, and with the NOS1-USB we changed that into one only (removed a regulator and such). This, while the PCB could stay the same. Now :

Because this sequence of 3 caps per channel were actually in parallel with eachother (but not stacked), and so all contributed to the their respective parts (theoretically), after removing these two electrical parts I could still decide to have the other 2 caps (for the channel) in there. The beauty of this "stage" is that it is directly measurable at the outputs (because the gain stage is the output) and so I just measured;
THD+N for 3 caps was way worse than for 2. 2 was still worse than 1.
And so 1 only remained.

For the PC card this won't work exactly the same (because of the most indirect path towards the outputs at the DAC which are way at the other end of the line), but the story above tells us how the mutual influence is, once the appliance is similar. And in this case it is 100% the same; just apply a bunch of caps onto power lines and they will do something. So, this is not because they are nicely used as input caps, but because they are used in parallel to those doing that job already. They don't smoothen, but add extra noise. But the worst thing : that extra noise can be wanted. Call it extra smoothening now. And might it be not clear : this extra noise / smoothening emerges from the loading from the same power lines as used further down the line for the whatever (in-PC-job, while they next also feed that powerlines themselves. On/Off, On/Off, On/Off. And that for 6 (or 4) of them together, depending on the voltage used - and never in the same sequence also depending on the current needed.

Do we think this can ever work in a sustained same fashion ?
I don't. And I think I just heard it yesterday, compared to the days before. It sure can be called burn-in, but because of two caps running into eachother at least (the official one somewhere and the one we add in parallel (see annecdotical story) - but which in this case are 6 (or 4), it is one pile of resonating sh*t which WILL change its resonance over time. Depending of the wear (which will not be equal per cap) at one stage and for maybe a week long you may have the worst sound ever. Or the best.

Also see next post.
Peter

Since this apparently *does* have its high impacting influence, all we need (ahum) is getting it under control. Can it be done ? maybe ...

First base idea is that this card *creates* noise to mask the few profound noise in there. So : profound = sheer frequencies. Now, since I don't see much how to do this without actually doing the wrong thing (add noise ? we must be crazy), I'd like to think the other way around : try to eliminate the few noise which is profound now (okay, as my assumption is).  So :

What about turning it into a not-"switching" supply.

So what I am going to do now is making it a DC experience. Ok, attempt-to;
I will make a "pack" of 5 47000uF Mündorfs and put those instead of what's on there at this moment. Should fit in the PC.

Not knowing at all what the exact draw is per rail, they hopefully drain so slow that no resonance will be in order ever, and further the "spikes" of loading them will be at a so slow rate we won't notice. Next it should act as a sheer DC supply in parallel to the "switching" supply inherently in there. Lastly, I hope that this DC supply is faster than what's in there so it will be "profound" (overrule). The inherent noise should disappear in the caps themselves.

Such a setup should not be subject to resonance. Burn-in yes (I think), but this will stabilize; Once "the sound" is reached, it should stay the same (but could slowly change because of wear, but this time no different than any electronics with capacitors).


Before I am really going to do this, people may tell me whether there is ever more than 24V used in the PC. I don't think so. I ask this, because the card contains 80V caps for one one the rails and 35V for two of the others. This, while the Mündorfs I have are 25V only.
So people who know this by heart, please let me know !

Peter

Peter hi,
I like the conclusion in the last post that tuning of the passive supply filtering needs to be understood. I don’t know how much research the makers of the card already applied but it may be that our requirements are different to those tested. It could be a big undertaking though.
 
About resonance from a bypassed capacitor network, I certainly agree with your comments about the THD+N performance of 1 2 and 3 caps. I would add to this that when I think about using bypassed signal coupling caps in the past, more often than not the effect has been to fix one problem in the sound only to introduce another (usually smaller) problem elsewhere. You may remember I commented that the x-Sound cap values seem to be unusually chosen in an earlier post. The common start point for PSU bypassing values, is to select values between 1/100th  to 1/1000th of the larger cap as a sensible starting point to minimise resonance caused by combined caps. But it’s never perfect, and the X-Sound boards don’t seem to do this anyway for what ever reason. So I’m with you on the point that the X-Sound or any other bypass capacitor networks has the potential to introduce its own characteristic resonance noise.

I still think that the RC network of the card will lower the noise spectrum of the PCIe supply rail over the effective range determined by the card cap values. The response of the RC filter must be limited by the performance of caps (ESR and response frequency etc, which will also all change as the caps burn in) and card trace lengths. My assumption would be that over some frequency range the card will be effective in reducing noise already on the PCIe supply rails. However as you say the card may well present its own resonances back onto the rails. But if  the card is reasonably designed though, surely the resonance spectrum should be secondary to the filter effect ?

Thinking about the PCIe bus and what needs to happen to the supply rails, I think there is some evidence that transfer jitter as data moves over the bus (maybe as block transfer timing or even a bit timing level) has an impact on sound quality.

(The PCIe “jitter” idea might be evidenced by the effect that PCI latency BIOS setting has on SQ on older MoBos. I wonder also if one of the reasons that the Adnaco card was not as successful as hoped was that in the Adnaco system PCI data has to traverse something like 5 PCI to PCI bridges before it reaches the remote USB chipset of the Adnaco card)

My guess, and it is only a guess, is that there are there are probably two main requirements of the PCIe bus power rail filter. The first would be to reduce the noise on the supply rails across some [edit: frequency] range that is useful to audio replay (but key here is understanding the range ?). And the second might be to lower the effective impedance of the supply over a frequency range to improve transient response of the DC supply to support transient On / Off signalling of different devices on the bus.

Now I’m layering guess on guess here but also I think the DC noise filtering might need to be effective from a low frequency in the <10hz range as audio frequency power supply induced errors in digital data patens have a habit of cropping up in the sound via some digital domain coupling process within the signal after the DAC.

Don’t take this too seriously it’s just the ramblings of a non-engineer who probably knows "just enough to be dangerous"  ;).

At least we know one thing and that is that the x-Sound card shows that messing with the PCIe power rails has the potential for significant impact (?improvement?) on sound so it seems worth pursuing.

Best,

Nick.

PS might it be that whilst a test with 5 x 47000uf caps would result in very good low frequency rail smoothing, that the caps will probably have much too high an ESR at the higher PSU frequencies needed by buss components and this might result in the “Supper Bass” effect that we discussed when I tried large caps on the Adnaco card. Fingers crossed anyway.

Before I forget it myself ...

Day before yesterday (day 4) all went back more towards the first two days. But, pleasantly enough, not all the way. So, fairly refined highs with enough mid in them. I psychologically forced myself not to like it too much, afraid of the (expected) due change later.
And no, I did not mangle with the card yet.

I was not 100% satisfied because I seemed to notice less explicit interest in the music I played. Not sure it was me or whether it was the general consensus about Windows 8 (remember, I am trying this on Windows 8 only). Fact is that the phenomenon "mechanical sound" slipped through my mind a dozen times during the session.

Then yesterday;

After an initial start with an album which screamed from the speakers in typically W8 fashion (way too bright) and which I let last for into the 2nd track only, I ended up in a HDCD collection. And actually by coincidence the real take off of the day was a HDCD left over of the day before and I could clearly recognize the sound;

Maybe not really blanketed (again like the first days), but a sound of which at least I like to tear out more freshness from the speakers. Well, almost and just not.
The both albums I played were from Deep Purple, Who do we thing we are, and Machine Head after that. The former I find famous for its special emphasized highs (always doubting how processed they are) and the latter just because I wanted to go back in time.

Both sounded almost too normal to me and at least equal for quality, which I don't recognize from earlier playings of them. The clear point : they wouldn't go wrong. LP like. Far more interesting though is that I was playing at -15dB/-12dB levels while normally this would be -21dB or so for these albums, and still I didn't perceive it as loud at all. I measured, and was totally surprised I was playing at 80dBSPL only. This should be well over 90dBSPL at the set levels. :wtf: ?

Fact is also that yesterday now a one dozen times it slipped through my mind that this was very close to W7, up to "what to go to W8 for ?". Still not, because this sounded sheer analog and people hunting for that ... why not.

One thing is most profound to me : All the problems I always and ever had with W8 being too dynamical in the sense of the difference between the softest and loudest passages being to large (and therefore never being able to set the correct volume) are out of the way, no matter in what fashion the card influences the sound.
A general thing I notice also (but it is in the same realm I think) is that W8 needs a louder playback to draw the sound out of the speaker plane (not have it too laid back). So this remains. The better stereo image from W8 also remains, but that too is in this same realm (as I think).

Tonight, for a change, I will try to play without the card and see what comes from that and how long I can last.

Peter

Nick,

Thank you for your helpful thoughts.
And hey, maybe we 're at the beginning of something new to learn, now knowing how a PC can be influenced for SQ largely and without much hassle (none actually, if only it could be under our control more - ... as I think).

I don't think this can be about "direct jitter" because no jitter is in order at this stage (in the PC). So it can only result as current spikes towards the DAC, in there finally influencing. Same with the Adnaco btw.

But to be honest, I cannot understand how the influence can be that large, starting off with the enormous difference Windows 8 implies (differences from all directions in the mean time). So maybe there is more, but then someone has to find out what it is first. I can't do it at this time ...

Thanks !
Peter

Referring to the Windows 8 topic again ...
I am sorry, but I removed the card and it won't get back in.
Maybe I should also say "sorry" for being the ever and always one debunking tweaks I didn't like from the start, and the only thing I can say is "didn't I say it right form the start" (pricky me).

Sadly it seemed to solve the Windows 8 issues (at least for me that seemed so), which I think it actually will for those perceiving too high dynamics from W8. But no matter how (which I quite don't know myself, see W8 topic), I have proven now that it is the wrong tweak to hunt for. So like I said it earlier "adding noise ? we must be crazy".
And so I was.

All the card does (in my system) is flattening out all what should be preserved inherently. Is something wrong, causing the necessity to flatten out ? find the source of that.
Well, don't say I didn't try ( Windows 8 ) and the final result is that I solved it. For myself that is and again : not that I know exactly how at this time (and time involved is crazy to do such a thing on your own).

My personal conclusions and judgements :

- The card will (!) take out harshness indeed;
- The sound from it will get blanketed and operates especially on the midrange;
- Net result can be "nice analog" sound without the snap I am used to;
- I think even I could get used to it, but once you take it out again ...
- If the card is needed, something else is wrong first (still somewhat pretentious this is);
- YMMV because the SQ result is not the same each day (but maybe it can after long burn in).

I hope I got it right somewhat.
Peter

Hi Peter,

I wonder if you have tested the Filter card in W7 and if so if you got the same conclusions than with W8

Regards,
Juan

Juan - No, I didn't.

And are you going to test the Filter card in W7 or you have already discard it?

Juan

Peter, the most important thing is that you demonstrated that this tweak could be unstable depending of the resonance and the "blanket" sound that was happening.

Even if I don't trust my ears (and have said it frequently enough), there was something "soft" with the card. I was not sure if it was for the better.

But it worthed the attempt for the price. And sometimes it helps resolve a problem, would it be simply because it indicates another direction for investigation.

Alain

Well Peter seems you got it more than somewhat right but it may be a bit too early for final conclusions!  :)

After reading your initial post regarding the card, I gave it another try Thursday morning before heading out on a 2 day work trip. The sound, for the 3 hours I listened, was shockingly fantastic. Voices were no longer shouting at me, rather they were refined and articulate. They emerged from the music in a wholly natural way, being neither recessed nor too forward. On my trip I kept reflecting on what I heard and it just seemed improbable; made me feel a little crazy like I had imagined it. Maybe it now sounded good to me cause you liked it and I was just hearing it "differently?" Couldn't wait to get home.

 Well I listened for about four hours yesterday, which included pulling the card for a while, and again the sound with the card was just great.

The biggest change with the card in is in the sound stage. When I first listened on Thursday I was listening to a Beethoven String Quartet. Without the card the SQ was very good but I was a little disappointed with the sound stage. It was a bit congested, though congested might be too strong a word: there was separation between the instruments but I couldn't quite point to where they were in space. The recording was the last disc in a ten box set produced by Philips. I was expexting better and blamed the recording because the "sound staging" here has been quite good, especially since I replaced three power cords. The stock cords to my subs were replaced with pangea ac-9's and the one to my amp was replaced with an AC-9 SE. Anyway, after putting the card in I was shocked: the sound stage completely opened up, inner detail from each instrument was everywhere, and I could suddenly see, if not touch, where each player sat. Rather than a blanketed sound it was a rich, lush sound that I had not heard before from my system.

I then played Heart of the Sunrise, Yes, no lack of slam here, and the vocals: awesome.

Conclusions:

**Assuming the card has finally burned in, if the sound goes bad again, I'll remove it forever. I just can't have it fucking with my head like this! If it has stabilized with the sound I'm now getting it will be a permanent fixture in my system (We, here, are unapologetic about using whatever shortcuts, tricks, special potions, home made room treatments for first and second points of reflection, etc. that improve sound quality for under a hundred bucks!)

**Remember how clear the sound was with 8e before attempts were made to take the positive aspects of W8 and put them in XXhighend with W7? To me when this happened the focus of the entire "audio band" shifted downward, and though the mid range and base may have improved, the higher frequencies have sounded rolled off. The female vocals just lost their sense of presence. However, this shift to a W8 sounding XXHighend seemed to be caused by a harshness in 8e that you purist types wanted to eliminate (You should have tried some fiber glass sound panels at the reflection points. Ha!  :) ) Anyway, everyone who has this card should give it a listen on W7 with 8e. With the settings below, I'm currently in audio bliss.

Okay, now with the release of the "9" series all bets are off. Time to download and do some testing.....Are we having fun yet?  :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)


 

Haha. Now you know why I don't like tubes either.

That would need me to revert to W7 first.
And at this moment I don't intend to do that. :veryhappy:
Maybe if you guys all make me crazy (thank you Brian :)).

Peter

I am starting to believe that all depends on the pc and components. I did not feel anything special, but with the card, at some music passages, the details were not as outstanding as they normally are...

Alain

Maybe remove all capacitors from th PC, no resonances, no blankets, no sound? ;)

Hi,

Due to a fierce flu I've not been listening to my system for a week. Today I was recovered enough and in the mood for some healing tunes, and switched the lot on.

Well, the first tunes were somewhat of a disappointment. Where was before last week's airy soundstage and musical fluency? The sound was way to rough and dry for what I've been accustomed too. The word irritating comes to mind.

I played a little with the 09v9b settings, but could not find a satisfying combination. With my reference 09-8e the same nuisances displayed. Then I remembered boleary's cardexperience and removed it.

Well, the card IS the culprit for this issue, now it sounds familiar again and finally I can listen to music for healing purposes again!

I have to say that when the card "worked" it worked very well here and was a worthwile addition. Maybe I will find a way to reinstall it in "working" order again... I'll let you know.
OTOH 9z9b is supposed to sound good without it anyway, so let's focus there first.

regards, Coen