XXHighEnd

I am nearly on the point of craziness comparing W7(9z82) versus W8(9z81a). W7 and W8 are on separate discs here. They are both identical minimal setups. And both are working without any problems (first for a while).

So I installed W7 (9z82) and thought "great" this is what I want all the characteristics of W8 and I can have the wallpaper and also I can probably get remote control set up again via bluetooth. So far so good a big improvement in the W7 sound without any doubt and much closer to the W8 sound I like. So after listening for some time I thought this is it - no reason to try W8 again.

But then as I was listening to some Stekpanna (excellent SQ jazz) I started to think that it sounded a bit "flat" a bit diffuse not as dynamic as W8 and I just could not hear those individual strands quite the same. MMmmm I just had to boot up the W8 disc again. And it sounded great I have to say more dynamic and I could definitely hear more of those strands in the music. The sound of individually plucked strings clearer fewer artifacts just more natural.

So then I went back to W7 and played a track from hell bad SQ which so far has sounded plain bad in W8. And here it is that I made a change setting SFS=1 and Q1=7 and that is the point where W8 really started to rock. I played "Mad About the Boy" Dinah Washington and nothing can hide the sibilance on Dinah's voice but in W8 the sibilance was a clean SSsssss which did not sound too bad I have to say. I then tried the same in W7 and the sibilance was SSshhh it sounded as though there was more "hash". It does sound to me as though W7 is adding something maybe a blurring of the sound - smoothing of the nasties.

But then again I was listening to W8 Ray Brown - Double RB earlier tonight and I started to think that maybe it had a slight hard edge that I had not heard before. So then I played it on W7 and for the first time I noticed the same thing but not as pronounced so it had been there all the time but only noticed for the first time via W8. To be fair is an OK sounding album and I am probably listening to the slightest of differences that most sensible people would not hear and it they did not be interested in at all.

So where am I? well for sure if I am going to just sit down and listen to music I will boot up the W8 disc. I cannot go back to W7 where the sound is just that bit more smeared a bit flatter and not quite as dynamic.

Peter maybe not what you want to hear but this is my honest appraisal. Nick will be coming soon and I look forward to his honest objective view - because I am at the point where I really do need a second opinion (or maybe psychiatric help ha ha).

By the way my wife says that if she hears Bob Dylan again which I have been using for comparisons she will throw my hi fi out of the window.

Comparisons are such a bad idea.

Ah also - it has taken me a long time to come the above conclusions so maybe that is an indication that I am comparing very small differences - I don't know but for sure I do know that there is no question - it is the W8 disc that stays booted and ready for listening.

Paul

Paul hi,

I'm really looking forward to coming over to take a listen  were going to have a lot to get through :), not long now.

Not wanting to drop a brick in the pond and cause more Bob Dylan to be played  ;) but did you have Peters suggested setting of 43 for balanced load set in W7. Things really took off with 09-z82 and W7 this evening, before this setting I recognised the smearing and description of sibilance in the sound, now it's much better.

Cheers,

Nick.

 

OK catching the brick I had set balanced load to 47 (by mistake) for both W7 and W8 but now have set both to 43.

The result? I am sitting down to an evening of music and which OS am I listening to? ..................... well it is W8.

But like most of us here I always humbly remember the number of times I have made a mistake which has only become apparent after many hours of listening. So that is my caveat - I must listen more - much more to be sure.

But Nick please bring along your "honest ears" I will appreciate your opinion as I am beginning to feel a bit isolated on this one. Why has no one else posted on this? I guess you all must all be happy with the latest W7 XX release?

Proost

Paul

Hey Paul, I'm currently out of town and intend to try 0.9z-8-2 when I get back. I do actually have 0.9z-7-5  loaded onto my W7 work laptop and it works amazingly well with my Dragonfly DAC - perfect for when I'm on the go. But I'm a bit reluctant to try 8-2 in case I have a Bert-like incident - simply can't afford for anything to go wrong with my work laptop when I'm out of town.

Will definitely share my W7 vs. W8 thoughts over the weekend. Meanwhile, hang in there.

Mani.

Something has gone wrong with the new W7 install because now I can't initialize W8 so I am going to talk about what I remember of it. I must admit that the sound is even more refined with  the (9z82) version on W7. The "weigth" has increased but is not as pronounced as it was in (9z81a) version on W8. I liked it a lot but if I have to choose between the two characteristics I prefer refinement even if it means a sligth weigth loss ( If I was talking about me I'd prefer a LARGE weigth loss).
So for now I feel no need to fix the W8 boot issue because the sound is so good in W7. Besides I am a little bit tired of OS installs and boot problems so I prepare to enjoy some good listening sessions. :bye:

Maxi

PD. Said that I am ready to eat my words again with the consequent weight increase. But not today, maybe tomorrow.

MMmmm oh dear maybe some second thoughts.

Last night I had an extended listening session with W8. No special quality recordings just some old favourite jazz recordings. And the longer I sat listening the more irritating the sound became. I ended up listening on W7.

But I am confused. Many of the good SQ recordings I have sound fantastic under W8. Dynamic detailed etc etc.

And with the latest settings that really bad Dinah Washington track sounds clearly better under W8 because much of the sibilance hash sounds cleaner.

So what is going? I go back to W7 and sound is softer a but squashed missing some aspects of W8 I really like. I can't toggle between OS's depending on the type of album I am playing so maybe I am going to end up on W7.

Confused - Nick help I need your ears!!!

Paul

For "User" here , XXHE in W8 the best is the first ever W8 version , running from the W7 folder ( dual boot ) . The other versions  degrade the sq especially in minimized os .

Going to the last W7 version in W7, I have seen a coloration, which more or less was attributed to W8 ( maybe we were seeing it going away ?? ) , coming back at the price of a great distorsion of harmonics ( even *if* in a good fashion ) . Slight shock to the ears , some times needed to recover . Drums too " cutted of " from their language .... o yes . Music has a language ....

*Maybe* software is going in wrong direction now  .


Regards .

A bit addressed to Paul : No. All you need is get some senses and recognize + admit that no CD player, playback software or OS for that matter that is only good at Rock or another genre, is neutral, nor will it be any good.

If you like some aspects of -in this case- W8, it is only that you can't dig out the baddies coming along with it. They may not even be there for the music you play. But the sheer fact that not all works should tell you enough. Anyway that is my way of living and the exact reason why it can't take one day only to decide with whatever it is I "improved". I have been crazy already to let W8 last weeks, while at the first track I played already it should have been clear. On the other hands, of course, it took weeks because I and maybe we all were under the impression that things could be solved. Well, since I can't, we can't. Not because I tell you you can't, but because, sadly, I am sort of needed to get it going.

What puzzles me somewhat is the enormous stereo (channel separation) effect I now can achieve from W7 just the same. And as far as I'm concerned, all I did with W7 was going towards the direction of W8 which carries some of those "attributes" inherently.

With W8 I have been torturing myself for all those weeks and even when so much more sounds were perceived and it looked good, it was still tiptoeing on the edge of, well, edgyness and all already has crossed a border already. If you, at such a moment, think it has to be for the better "because", you are already fooling yourself. Look :


When I read this a few days back, I recognized I had been in total extasy which sort of resembles Carsten's expression here. This is not only because I like the sound so much from W7 and 0.9z-8-2, this is not only because I now hear so much more from W7 compared to before, but it merely is because I can play and play and play and totally NOTHING is wrong anywhere. Nowhere. Most probably I will be able to find things for the better in W8 for certain tracks or complete albums, but I am no fool; The few time I have to enjoy music is not to be destroyed by half and more not working. But merely and as how I know it from a very long time : when a certain number of albums is not working, something is very wrong in the first place and I KNOW I should not fool myself with anything else sounding for the better. It will only show for the better - my ears and brain are fooled, and it is NO professional attitude to even think that the one half which is better, thus prevails and we have a better version (or DAC or etc.). NOT thinking like this is important, because by now we (or at least I) have the reference of ALL being able to play with super-joy. So when it suddenly can not, then it is not for me, but it should not be for you either. You will be focusing on the wrong things and end up with improper solutions to it (like me suddenly needing to reposition speakers).

Yesterday I have been playing albums from 1968. Just because a first sounded so damn good on the openness, freshness and cymbals. I heard a Steppenwolf which I only recalled from the movie Born to be Wild which was actually just before my time. Listen to it. It sounds from today but then good. I never knew it could be any good or close to it. After that it only got better with Neil Young's first in HDCD of which I am totally confident that its pureness which is created from (HDCD's) silkyness together with the beautifully rendered guitars and sensitive singing, draws you into it and which -I guarentee you- will NEVER happen in the current W8 state. You may hear more detail but there will be no silk and no emotion and it will be a technical experience. Let's bet about THAT for a nice bottle (and I did not try it). But might you have been able to depress your emotion before the last track "Last trip to Tulsa", try to keep your eyes dry during this one. Better than even Stevie Nicks, and I am talking about *knowing* how stories (lyrics) will be true just because the way they are sang. W8 won't do that.

Peter

Stefano,

I think it was you who tried to tell me something by private mail or PM about W2012 (which is what you are using, right ?) "having no Metro", but after a question from me it turned out that you meant something else and I recall that I could not understand it.

Can you repeat what you tried to tell me about this ? Maybe it is important.

Thanks,
Peter

I was about to try W8 until Peter came up with his post about W8 being not good.

I can confirm about this super-joy!

Really never had so much fun listening!!

 :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

Paul hi,

This is interesting you have just summarised above why I like W7 slightly better overall. W8 presents more detail and clarity etc, W7 runs W8 close with 9-z82 in these areas but W7 is just more involving even if it's not quite so "clear".

Its a very close call though. I am guessing that out systems are the difference (that would have to be speakers Duos vs AN/Es). I am guessing that your AN/E inject a little sparkle into the W8 sound that the Duos don't and so W8 sounds better. The differences are quite small between the two and personal preference is going to play a big role at this level.

I'm really looking forwards to taking a listen.

Cheers,

Nick.

I felt that the sound of my windows 7 install was not as good as a remembered from just a week ago when it was reinstalled last. The poorer sound was coming from a very clean install that had been through 5 cycles of min OS to normal OS changes and A/Bing of a couple of "tiny" OS tweaks. Just to humour my curiosity to see if sound had changed, I thought I would do a complete reinstall last night of W7, XXHE and recopied my music into the single disk I am using.

The result is the sound is once again MUCH better. Either I will not be touching any OS settings in future or might the OS sound worse as files etc are moved around the disk ??

Has anyone else come across this ?

Regards,

Nick.

ps there is a chance that the effect could be related to the "noise" problem I have been having, but this has been extremely well behaved lately and I did do tests for noise before and afterwards and really could not point to this being the difference.

Paul, you're not alone on your findings of W8 vs. W7, I almost 100% concur.

After all these contradictory messages on the forum I've decided to do a clean install of W7 and W8 on separate partitions of the same hard disc.
I use the same XXHE settings for both, see my signature.

After some listening to both OS's I again have to confirm that the clear winner for me and on my system is W8.

I'll try to report on the differences:
In W8 there is more detail, better timing, better attack of cymbals, strings etc, more black background, tighter bass, less distortion and the overall soundstage is more balanced;
For example during applause in a live recording you can hear much more the individuals clapping hands, and the soundstage is less blurry;
The kick of a bass drum is clean yet full and deep;
cymbals sound very detailed and very well positioned without getting harsh;
the snares of a guitar have a better attack and still sound full;
a contrabass is well defined, has just the right weight, well positioned and never gets blurry;
and voices are well defined, detailed but not overly so.

W7 has a fuller midrange, which I personally don't like; it's just too much to my liking, the mid-low in voices seems too much present. Furthermore the overall sound is more veiled even with the lower SFS settings.

I've tried different genres of music and recordings to see whether it makes a difference, and obviously as there is more detail, when a recording is bad it will be more revealed.

In terms of the soundstage and stereo-effect; Yes there is a clear difference between W8 and W7. In the sweetspot in W8 everything is fine, well positioned (I don't experience too much panning as reported by some) as is with W7, although the instruments are a bit larger (less pinpoint).
Outside of the sweetspot things are more different however, W7 has a better soundstage overall, and I experienced some strange effect in W8 where the bass was perfect in the sweetspot and more close to the loudspeakers, but behind the sweetspot it lost weight somehow.
Was this due to my room acoustics (I haven't treated the room at all), the positioning of my speakers (I let the speakers cross in the sweetspot) I don't know, but this was certainly a lot less in W7. Changing the position of the speakers certainly has a more profound effect in W8 (and I don't use horns), and it may be related to what some reported as phasing issues in W8.

So why are my findings so different from others (no horns, not an ideal audio-pc, the room, ...), I don't know, and I may indeed be fooling myself, but I sure do enjoy listening to music via W8.
Like Paul I'll ask some friend's ears to help me out, just to make sure I'm not going crazy   :wacko:

Diede

Good to hear others views of W8 and W7. I remember back to when I used to run "vanilla" W7 and it sounded edgy and it was when I applied updates that the edgy sound disappeared.

Paul

Totally unimportant : I don't recall that Paul. Unless you mean the update to SP1 (which of course could have been covered by individual updates).

Important : Back at the time we were not as keen on all this as we are today. But mind you, when W7 came about, everybody was raving just the same. Too bad that I was not so much, but in the mean time had to solve all the (changed) priority issues in W7 and people received stops all over etc. Took me more than 6 months.
And what for ?
To later find that SP1 actually solved what Vanilla all did wrong in the sound department. And yes, in a later stage half of us even got back to Vanilla because I was so stupid to hear a better bass wich later again appeared to be not accurate at all.

This is all not a matter of getting used to or something. It has to be right and it has to be right right out of the box. When not, you can bet something is wrong and everybody starts disagreeing because we suddenly run into subjective-mode. We will, because when something is wrong we start to pick what we like best. For one this is a bass, for another cymbals. Etc.

Think about this please. How objectivity and agreement (about good or wrong doesn't matter) can turn into subjectivity and no communication possible.

Peter

I remember when I listened to W8 the first times. The sound was "sharp" and strangely I could hear the sound coming more from the speakers.

Then with time I discovered that certain songs seemed odd at certain passages. I can't put my finger on it, but sometimes percussions do not sound so natural. This is not consistent though. "inconsistency" is the word that comes to my mind.

When I come back to W7, it requires on my part a certain amount of time because I feel there is something a little more blurred, but there is also an harmony and a sense of "all playing together" that I don't feel is as present in W8. After a while, I don't hear that blurr and in fact I wonder if I am not confusing this with another effect that I can't describe. But since I can hear more details, my guess is that "blurr" is not what I should entitle to express this difference between the 2 OSes...

But there is definitely a difference between these 2 and to try to "merge" them seems (actually) to confuse more than to confirm something ?

Alain

Peter - when I updated W7 from vanilla it included SP1.

Paul

Hey Nick, I have experienced times where SQ significantly improved after defragging. So I have always assumed that files being moved around on the disk do make a difference.

I've just installed 0.9z-8-2 on my W7 HDD... and absolutely love the sound. I mean, there is no way anyone would think this is digital. No way. Totally smooth, and yet with all the inner detail you could want. No edge whatsoever. But I'm right down at SFS=1. Higher SFSs smooth the sound off a little too much.

I need to reinstall W8 on my other HDD to make a comparison. But quite frankly, I'm not in much of a hurry to try this.

Whatever you did Peter, it works for me 100%. Thanks so much.

Mani.

Edit: Just another point. I'm pretty sure my room is being energized in a totally different way now. There don't seem to be any standing waves and yet I'm getting a lot more vibrations coming up through my seat than I normally have. I think this actually adds to the enjoyment.

Vibrations through the seat always add to the enjoyment, I find.   ;)

Interesting that Peter(?), Mani, etc., are liking Q1=7, Q1 factor, SFS = 1, with a device buffer of 4096, while I find a sweet spot at Q1=14, Q1 factor and SFS = 2, with a device buffer of 512.  In both cases the product is 28672.

Brian hi,

Interesting about the defrags. I can see me doing regular rebuilds from now on.

Cheers,

Nick.

OK I give in - there is clearly something wrong with W8. I was seduced (I think) by false dynamics (caused by noise or some peculiar distortion) I really don't know but or sure W8 has a hard edge that I cannot live with.

But I have to say some music in W8 sounds stunning. Hey ho W7 it is (for now).

So Peter do you have any hunch as to what the problem with W8 is?

Paul

After some exhaustive listening sessions I can suscribe 100% the above.

Great job Peter...AGAIN.

Maxi