XXHighEnd

With SFS's below around 12, I get a skipping sound or repeated tick, very soft, with sustained notes. Too early to tell what SFS is "best" here. Other values used are in my signature. Again, thank you, the sound is great.

Is this still so when you kill XXEngine3.exe and retry ?

Can you try to explain to me what you mean with "sustained notes" ? I know what they are in general, but in this context ?

I didn't describe it correctly. It's a constant, soft  clicking sound like a record with one very small scratch. I think it goes away with a SFS of 30 or higher. A SFS of 2 is unlistenable cause it seems to get louder or more intense the lower the SFS. With Z8 the lower SFS's continue to sound better here and, man, the sound is like never before. Talk about shivers with female vocals..........give Eva or the Wailing Jenny's another go.

Peter, hats off to you!

Yep, getting the same 'constant ticks' here with an SFS of 2. Will try killing xxengine3.exe and try higher SFSs too. Have already tried with no PA, and ticks get considerably louder to the point of being unlistenable. With PA-, ticks are really not that bad... but annoying and probably unacceptable in the long run.

Mani.

They're getting louder and louder with the same setting - so throughout the playing of the track ?

No, ticks remain at the same level, but are louder without PA than with PA-.

Will report back with further investigation.

Mani.

Ok, so why don't I have any ticks ? Not with PA(-) and not without PA. With/without Volume Normalization. Q1=14, Q1F=1, DevBufSize = 4096. Driver = 16ms.
With/Without Logging (this may be important because of the huge logging with very low SFS).

So, nothing, let alone unbearable or something.

??

I have had those little ticks with Z5 to (SFS 2). Setting SFS to 12 helped. Did not have the time to really play with 9Z-8a.

I have SFS=2 Q1=14 Q1f=1 and I am getting ticks. They are most noticeable at the end of a track when the music is fading out (but not between tracks) and are a regular pulse at about 100hz. If I listen close to the tweeter they are clearly there all the time a track is playing.

P

I just changed the USB Buffer size in the XX contol panel from 8 to 16, per Peter's specs, and the ticks, with a SFS of 2, have disappeared, I think....

Hmm, and let that be the only thing I did not change !
Didn't see the relation ...

Odd. But I will look into it.

Peter

I just changed my USB buffer setting from 4 to 16 and the ticks have also stopped.

Weird, went outside and brought some wood for the stove down to the backporch for the week. The ticks with a SFS of 2 have returned.......When i went outside I left the system on but not playing.

Reboot and the ticks are gone. The disappearance, reappearance, and again disappearance with the driver at 16 ms.

Took another break and the ticks returned. This time, instead of rebooting, i stopped engine 3, hit play and the ticks disappeared.

Tried with the settings in the my signature and the XTweaks ones that you are using and changed down to SFS=2. I did not hear these ticks even with high volume.

@Peter:  :NY02:

Big Step!

Georg

To those receiving them ticks :

Can you focus on tracks from different origine (including different rip means) ? I mean, I have the hunch that this can happen after playing one "origine" and next play another (without killing XXEngine3.exe in between). I think that it is allowed to press stop in between the tracks, or just play one till the end and then start the other. Attended is allowed.

This could be about header data being different between them, and my "solutions" to let all work fail somewhere.

Peter

Paul, and others too : forget about my high-SFS stress for a while ... This is what (just) happened (and let it be annecdotical) :

Remember my "nasty" ? This is what I tried (I think) day before yesterday. Ok.

I just started Playback, and ... tick-tick-tick-tick.

Ok, now what ? SFS is at 2 ? yep, it sounded like that. Now what ? forgot to set it back from this "nasty" trial ?
But this preceeds it all :

Christmas morning I put up some 24/192 recording from tape. While recording I recalled it as OK, although that was through  headphone listening (I'm totally unexperienced with that). Btw, Mani will know what recordings I am talking about. Well, shut it off within 5 minutes. One thick multi-layer of blankets. Sh*t; thought those recordings where nice.
Later ... tried another out of the three tapes I recorded. Again unlistenable. Too bad. Bye.

Yesterday morning. Let's try the last of the set of three. Hey, now what ?? why is this sounding better ? no, sounding good ? Strange. Must have been a better recording to tape back at the time (1971). Ok, nice after all.

Then came last night. We were supposed to have dinner at some distance. Needed some long running Christmas music. What the heck, let's have that blanketed stuff. Nobody will hear anyway at the distance (a room down the hall). But ... what ?? wait ... it sounds normal now ?
NO clue.

Then came tonight. The tick-tick-tick-tick (so, from 24/192 to 16/44.1, the fformer output at 768 the latter at 705.6). Yep, I said it : some change of origine which is similar to change of format. So, last night the lot stopped when all was played and this was 24/192 (upsampled 4x). Aha, see ? NOW I have them ticks too. Killed Engine3 - ticks vanished. Good. As expected.

But the story is clear isn't it ? those tapes are completely blanketed with the higher SFS. And totally-not with SFS=2. And not by a small margin. It's ridiculous actually.
And at some stage I forgot to set back that SFS ...

So much for how I want it to be ... :bye: :bye:

Peter (right now playing with SFS=2, but with music of which I know it can have it - not nasty for sure - I'm in denial).

Peter - could that be another bottle of scotch ? ha ha  I have not finished the other

Peter - Ihave tried what you suggest I started with an album played after listening to another album that was OK and ticking started. I stopped the track switched of Engine4 restarted and no ticks. But then tried 3-4 different CD's but no ticks yet. So just now not much to report.

I am at Mani's tomorrow (with the mystery feet in my pocket ha ha) so it may be a day or so before I can check again.

Peter, great story. I've been walking around the last few days just shaking my head wondering how such different results could be the case. Not that there aren't individual preferences but the difference is too "objectively hearable." I think being in denial at times is necessary to work through things. Thanks to your bullheadedness we only get to listen to some of the best sounding music reproduction on the planet.

Now, about those ticks. They are certainly strange. I found three tracks where they behave very differently. On one they are constant; on another they only happpen with loud sustained vocal notes, they go away in the track when the vocals and music are softer; and the last has no ticks whatsoever. All have different header formats. Two were ripped by EAC and one with dbpoweramp. I sent you and email about them.

Ok, I don't think it is necessary to further sort out things about those ticks; They clearly can be there and it is about something I changed the other day. I will be able to find that and undo it. It will bring back some other problem, but hey, it gives me something to do, right ?

Edit : Merely for myself :
Ah, I already know what was changed : When in the same playlist an HDCD and normal were there, these ticks emerged at going from the one to the other. So look what I'm capable of : I solve that small problem, and introduce it in all of the other combinations. Smart eh ? 8)

Brian,

You got me a nice one with Alison Krauss.
Your descrption (via email) "ticks only with louder sustained note" made me focus on that, and I didn't hear a thing (SFS=2, PA On, Strength = 1). But towards the end the guitar becomes somewhat more profound and the attack of the strings is somewhat similar to "ticks". And then something didn't fit. It ticks. But once heard, it is easily to perceive that it ticks all over. Right from the start. But now :

No ticks when PA is Off. And now I am totally puzzled. I don't see how that can happen, but it does.

Important point here is : the ticks sound completely the same as when I have the situation for whatever reason and which I can not mimic (notice my description elsewhere from playing a Hires and a Redbook after that). The mere importance is that because this is sounding the same it should be the same problem. And somehow in this track it is always there so I can work from here as it seems.

You didn't tell how this track was ripped. Please do.

Thanks,
Peter

Hello,
I got some subtle and sporadic tics with the Z7-5 settings just like when I had the Q1 too low. So I tried higher setting from Q1x2 to x3 but, with SFS at 2, there was not possible in my system so I tried the other way down: the Q1x from 2 to 1 and the tics seems to be gone.

And the sound... OMG  :o . After adjusting some other settings the level of detail is atonishing. With orchestral complex passages, like those in Mahler symphonies, the clarity of the percussion instruments is outstanding. Before there were very good but now my Grado's has become a stethoscope. A giant step forward. Great job Peter.
BTW I was suspecting a gift like that because you were so silent after the HPET thread. :naughty:

Best regards

Maxi

Ok, I'm typing a but in the blind now ...
It seems more complicated.

After this I played your Murray Perahis. Description "ticks constantly and ripped with dBPowerAmp". It ticks alright.

Then I killed Engine3 and played it again. No ticks anymore. Hmm. Tried Alison Krauss again. No ticks ? But I let it play.

Around the 2:20 mark strange things happen. I never heard it before, but this maybe because I didn't listen precisely to "this". So, what seems to happen there is a change of DC. I can feel it, but it's also audible as anomalies. And then, somewhat further ticking starts ...
Probably nothing different from how I perceived it at first.
Ticking was more faint now though.

Playing Alison from the start sometimes shows a faint tick, but as said, this is difficult to perceive because of the "frequent" string attacks which here by accident can fall together with the ticking (at SFS=2). But I could hear it.

Then playing Murray Perahis again, and no way the ticks were at the same level as before. But I could hear them.

Again I don't know how, but it now seems that the track data can incur for it herself. Like what happens around the 2:20 mark with Alison Krauss. And it stays in there until Engine3 is killed. Nice.

:sad:

Brian - About Alison Krauss :

Start a few seconds before 2:18 but watch the 2:18 mark.
Start a few seconds before 3:08 but watch the 3:08 mark.

In both cases you hear the anomalies I'm talking about (watch the part her voice staying at the same key and level while something's going up an down in a synthesized fashion ~ 4 times per second).

Remember you at first described it in a for me not understandable fashion ? about "sustained notes" ? later you corrected that (email ?) but it IS about sustained notes. And it is in the file data ... Looks very odd and a repetition of the exact same pattern each 0.03 seconds. It is not this what you will hear (repeats too fast) but the resonant of it (where a larger part of this repeats - comes together (hard to explain)).

I have the same track here (but with a 1 second track length difference) and without looking at the data, the anomaly sounds the same. Btw, with both PA On and Off.

How this relates to ticks starting to emerge - beats me. I probably see ghosts. Fact seems to be that the repeating of the anomaly has the same frequency as the ticks (with SFS=2 ).

Of course the ticks themselves never occurred anymore after this repetitive trying. Maybe that needs playing the track from the start ?
Crazy thing.

Peter, the ticks are among the strangest thing I've experienced with XXHighend. The Allison Kraus was ripped with EAC. That track is one of my reference tracks and until Z8 I never heard the ticks. It's very strange how they seem to become more "intense" with the loud sustained notes. Glad to hear I'm not the only one hearing that! Waiting for your "fix", I've been listening with a SFS of 12 or 14. To these ears, the SQ improvement with Z8 is as "large" as the introduction of PA. Best Xmas present I've gotten in years.  :)

Yea Brain, I didn't want to say it, but it indeed is as if we now hear anomalies which were always in there. And notice that in the Release Notes I really wanted to say :

That tick at the first SFS change (which has been there for ages) is now more profound, but this will be because it's just better audible now.

... But I wasn't sure about it and I thus left that out.

In the mean time, half of a day later, I am able to 100% mimic the starting of the ticks. And indeed from a 24/96 into a 16/44.1 track - just at Attended and never press Stop. It might be "header" related and thus far nothing that I changed in the area and was reverted today, helps it go away. But at least I can mimic it now and that is the most important on to the solution.

Regards,
Peter

The ticks I have been hunting for have been solved. Finally ...
:heat::heat::heat::heat:
I thought I'd never find it.

Goed bezig!!  :)

Nee, tijdverpesterij !

Anyone who feels he receives ticks once in a while (at low SFS that is, like at 2), can unzip the below over his current 0.9z-8 folder (only that !).

It solves the ticks occurring from format changes.

I'm almost sure there's more situations that imply for the ticks. So if you receive them, please try to describe what you are playing but especially what you were doing before playing the track where you now receive the ticks. Could be Stop, could be just a format change after all, could be ... I don't know. Attended / Unattended.
Please remember, when I can mimic it it still is difficult. Without that it's regarded impossible to solve.

Thank you all,
Peter

Sure hope you are having a beer now and NOT WORKING till after the new year! Thanks so much for all of your time and hard work.

On the off chance you might be reading this ( :)) the ticks are 85 percent better on the Allison Krause track, SFS of 2, with the lateset Engine3 exe. Need to listen again, make changes and restart the track, etc, to really see what happens.

Hi Peter,

The new engine did not cure the ticks I hear. Repeatable track is "Bill Miller -Reservation Road (track 1)" which you have within your collection. Attended, unattended, volume settings and such does not remove this added "skipping noise". The only thing that changes is to increase SFS from 2 to about 12 as minimum, then the flute does not "stutter" anymore.

I hope this one helps...  ;)

Bert

BTW, here it is a Flac file, not sure if that has anything to do with this...

Bert

Hey Bert - Thanks.

Is this with logging being Off ? I did not try it myself yet, but it could make a difference (not that I expect it to :)).

Without you telling much, I already feel it is the same as that Alison Krauss experience. Maybe I should try that too with the higher SFS ...

Peter

For what its worth I not had any ticks since installing the new engine#3

Yep and for what it is worth, FLAC or WAV gives the same "skipping".

Bert

Bert, you are crazy. Crazy avatar by now too. ;)

Ok, at first, from a distance, back and forth brought me nothing. Then, back at SFS=2 again and after close to 2 minutes into the track, I heard the exact same ticking. But, by now I was with my ear in the horn. Very VERY faint.

But now watch this :

I stopped, killed Engine3, and restarted the track. No ticks anywhere. So I was on to asking you to do the same ("does killing Engine3 help ?"). But wait ...

Now I heard foot tapping. But what to foot tap for ? And hey, on the rythm of those ticks ? nah ...

The foot tapping, which I did not notice when the ticking was there, occurs at the decay of the flute. So, not in the envelope phase, not in sustain phase but at decay. Each time exactly the same. And for me 100% sure at the interval of the ticks (~ 3 times per second).

Because already yesterday I found that the ticking is not at a constant level - can start to occur in the midst of the track and more variations of the matter, I have already been thinking about what can cause these *variations*. And I know of nothing. Well, one thing exists which makes it dependent on "time" and this is the buffer filling towards the DAC. Something like streaming becomes active already before the first real music data is sent and when that is sent depends on the responsiveness of the PC.

That something in there causes the anomaly in the first place seems clear to me (another bug) but how it works out must be dependent on something else. So, each time I send 100% the same data or at least that has to be so when first Engine3 was killed right in advance. But how it works out seems to be related to something else which happens and which may be unavoidable. Like we could peceive crackling when the mouse is moved - that sort of thing. This is how logging is to be Off - it implies writing to disk at the same interval and it could be audible.

I'm afraid that we just found ourselves a coincidental means of being able to judge how sound is influenced in general by means so far out of our reach. So, cause the ticking to be audible and see how it can change ticks into foottapping, but envision such a thing happening throughout as a general sauce.
Also notice that this tick can be something which lasts a few samples (when mapped on to time) though it may be smeared somewhat because of analogue response. That foottapping though lasts way way longer and merely comes down to hundreds of samples. This, while the samples did not change (and for sure not in length of the happening) which makes it a most odd thing to me.

Although it may not be appreciated as such, to me it looks like the finding of the year. And for those who just switched - 2012 I mean.

Peter

Bert, like in your first post about this, you again describe it as some skipping. I wasn't able to hear just that, but it may be so.

But what about ticking or otherwise like I described it. Do you hear that as well ? Or *can* you hear that, now knowing what I hear ?

Btw, my Q1 is at 14, Q1F=1, DevBufSize = 4096, NOS1 buffersize = 4ms. Normal OS and Attended.

I hear several different things excactly the same (your settings or mine did not change anything).

I always start to play using the same track, killing engine 3 and starting over does not change anything here.

The noises I get:

1) At start before the music starts I hear the static "tack" which could probably be prevented by using different settings. The same tack after a while when PA engages...

2) At the moment the track starts to play I hear crackling static noise for a brief moment (hardly as loud as the initiating "tack").

3) When the music starts (the flute) then the skipping sound appears (louder when the signal gets louder and not in the rythm of the music).

4) At the parts being more silent there is always some other noise present too (very soft crackling noise not in the rythm of the music but softer than at the start of the track).

The other sounds you describe is something I have to listen for in a moment and hear if I can find the same as you hear.

Bert

Happy 2013!   :pleasantry:

Getting improved sound but ticking with SFS=2, I installed -8c01.

So first: Thank you for bringing back "my" XXHE.  Yes, with -8 there was improved sound, and when I tried SFS=2, aside from the ticking it was as good as I've heard this version.  With the XTweaks, though, there was always a sense of too much changing with adjusted levels of the tweaks, practically like tone controls, and that could never be right.  From the first moment when sound came out of the speakers with -8c01 it was right.  Yes, I'm sure it can be tweaked and "dialed in," but now there is a good solid base to work from.  (Music was "Delilah" and "Tell Me What You Want" from Teddy Thompson's - Richard's son - album "Bella."  Have a glass of wine and a dance with the wife over these tunes, is my New Year's recommendation.)

As I said, I was getting ticks with -8a, so I installed -8c01.  No more ticks on RedBook rips.  But switching to a 24/96 HDTracks download ("Dawned on Me" from Wilco's "The Whole Love") brought horrible distortion - volume fluctuating back and forth from normal to way too loud, and washes of distorted music, as if from ripped speaker cones.  Restarted XXHE and no more of that distortion, thank goodness, but light tick sounds on the 24/96 track, one say every 10 seconds or so.  No matter how often I restarted XXHE or rebooted the computer, no ticks on Redbook rips (which I have XXHE convert to 24/88.2), but always ticks with that 24/96 track.

By the way, played with the Q1 factor and a multiplier of 2 sounds better than 1 or 3 to me.  Q1 setting = 14.

Thank you for the feedback Jud.
Have been working on it today again and found nothing else than ticks can be there. No idea how it starts or what can end it. Well, if that were ticks only. Sound can just change and when you're not focused on the phenomenon it could just be great sound.

I'm in the stage of reverting to whatever version to see whether it's not in there as well now I know how it can be perceived.

Again, thanks. Bert too, and others.
Peter

Translating your latest message a little further, I'm guessing what you are saying is that nothing you did in -8c01 should have affected the sound, other than removing ticks (at least from RedBook).  So it's possible I was just in the right frame of mind to hear -8 with what are still a relatively new group of settings, or my new desktop speakers, still in their first hours of operation, are rounding into form.

Whatever the cause might be, the result is that I'm pleased with the sound of -8 right now.  Good luck with the hunt for the source of the ticks!