XXHighEnd

Well, what's in a title.

[many typos will be in here. Sorry for that ! (did not look back)]

Right. I realize that this will be the most confusing ever, and one could say that all is my fault. What ? well, let's start here : And then there was W7 SP1 (RC) ... (http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=1509.0)

We all know that one. And the one *that one* refers to : We all fell in the W7 pitfall (http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=1398.0)

... and the one that one again refers to. What a roar did I create. And before proceeding, let me be clear that I stand behind everything I ever came up with, while at the same time I don't think there was anyone who did not agree with it.
But times change, and it is thus time for a change once again. A change back into the black hole of Windows 7.

:scratching:

If we go back to December 2009, we had "a" version of XXHighEnd; we started hopping over to the new Windows 2007, and I got a kind of crazy of following the twirks of W7. We didn't have Kernel Streaming (which came only one month after that), and while the SSDs were -not- spinning by many at that time, people came up with RAM Disks and stuff. We all compared with Vista, with/without RAMDisk, and all we tried was letting Windows 7 sound and behave right, and in the middle of that process someone came about with the Release Candidate of Service Pack 1 for Windows 7.

Still in the middle of RAMDisk mess and stuff (people might still be in there, but I am not - which may be of some importance), we all (yes, all) hopped over to that W7 SP1 RC, and where happy again. The RC was not my idea, but I too fully agreed with it.

Later, much later, I could eliminate the SSD, and not long after that the RAMDisk. In my view it was for the worse, and no theories existed in my mind that could let these tweaks make music sound better. And they did not in the end.

The latter came together (of course no coincidence) when XXHighEnd eliminated way more from the OS than it could earlier on. I am not sure when this exactly was, but let's say the end of 2010. It is not that much important, and the only thing which is, is that nobody was using the raw Windows 7. Maybe outside our forum, but not within that I know of.

For some it went not 100% for the better, who applied the official Release To Manufacturing (RTM) version of SP1. This will have been March 2011 and later. Sound degraded somewhat for them, but it would be fair to say that the by then improvements within XXHighEnd compensated for that sufficiently.

Last week, towards the end of August, people still with the RC version started to notice a running clock about the end of the RC being active. Yes, that count down was running on my system as well, and a nice topic was spent on it.
Today, September 1 2011, it is likely that everybody uninstalled his RC (no upgrade was possible), and since it is free, they installed the official RTM. Although it is soon, a few noise was heard about it not sounding for the better.

So what is next ?

People who closely followed the sequence of happenings implied by my posts (and did not bother about the particilar content), may have made the combination already. I have been very explicit about it, but did not make the combination myself on purpose. I was too excited to make it a one liner as OffTopic in some other topic, and moreover I had to test more.

As so often, it has been a sheer coincidence that I found out, because what I will be talking about next, sure is not audible in every music;
I must WARN you that at this time you may not be able to perceive it at all, because my situation is too special. The main subject regadring this will be 0.9z-6 I am using, which again eliminates more of the OS, if not all there is. This IS important, and the reason for the longer lead in (about similar stuff).

To make a short story long, day before yesterday it was playback time as it is everyday, and I started to look for something to play. I looked for some compilation album which is called something like US ever greates hits, and of which I know it must be somewhere because I played it once (this is 3 or 4 volumes), but in a year's time I never could find it. Day before yesterday I took some time for it (and this is about really good sounding end 60's into 70's original recording greatest US hits), and ended up with searching for "U.S" in order to find it (ehm, within over 25000 albums). Of course it again lead to nothing, but this is how a stumbled upon Klaus Schulze's volume nr. 4 within the Contempory Works I talked about elsewhere (that volume being called U.S.O. I think).

Now you must now that ever back I liked Klaus Schulze very much. Many more of these artist I liked at the time, which is merely about the ever recurring same beat throughout a track, with Jean Michel Jarre as the worst, so to speak. However, since I went into the computer (playback) age, it went history; All I had on DAT tape by that time, stayed on there, and all I could do was reobtaining that from (music) libraries, and what I got was the stuff which slipped into my mind, or I couldn't get it otherwise. Btw, I only currently found that all what I seemed to have banned from my mind was the progressive rock stuff; so many of that exists, and somehow I couldn't think of that anymore.

Up till a few days back the Schulze's et all didn't make in in my system, if I ever got to trying one at all. They do not exhibit the interesting synth sounds from modern artists, and on this matter I often refer to Ott, Shpongle, Shulman and a few others, which just as well can be called Bluetech sound, although I kind of make that up myself (him being such a "Goa" artist himself, always around as a producer or something). This is not at all about the type of music for me, but merely about the sounds it can exhibit, which is excellent on the NOS1, and totally fails on normal DACs. It's test stuff for me, but in the mean time most often about 10 minute all-the-same-beat tracks. Schulze does not fit in there (let alone Vangelis and so many others from back then).

Until day before yesterday.

Yes, I think it is allowed to have so much babble before coming to the matters, because it is the craziest change I ever experienced. The change seems to be larger than going from any oldest XXHighEnd version to a current, or going from an Audio Note OS DAC to the NOS1-USB for that matter.

So now at least you know the degree of change I'm talking about. I rate it 5 times better than it was. Not 10% or 30% a new XX version can imply for, but 5 times (ok, I said similar about the original NOS1 to the NOS1-USB).

Ready ?

Yesterday I tried to play both Schulze albums again (in the end this was about Vol.4 as well as Vol.3). This, as part of the testing I had to apply, after listening to both albums the day before.
It sounded like totally unbalanced sh*t; sub low was in there (I use sub woofers), and furthermore there was exceptionally high output which I didn't like at all because so much out of balance. Somewhere a higher mid was way profound, and the guitar like stuff from the last track of Vol.4 was shouting towards me all over. The higher bass was totally not there. Nothing, zilch.

Of course I am telling the story upside down, which is only possible because I knew the reference. This was how I heard the albums the day before. Anyway, this time (yesterday) all I would do is finding another album as quick as I could, hoping for a better balance/sound. See ? Schulze can't do it these days.

But I did nothing of the kind. I tried all the tracks of both albums at least briefly (that totals something like 7 tracks anyway), in order to be sure to ...

uninstall SP1 RTM.

And when that was done 10 minutes later it immediately worked as the day before, and I listened to one of the albums AGAIN, just because it is so great. Ah, maybe not the album(s), but the sound coming from it. Tot-tal-ly unheard (by me).

There is completely no way that any highs can sound harsh. They are just overwhelmed by this SUPER upper bass coming from it. Actually by everything coming from it.
If I had to describe this by one word I sure word say : UMPF.
But I'm not sure this is understandable in the englisg language. Dutch/German certainly will understand, as it is even official audio language. It means that every attack is preceeded by a longer envelope of the deeper tones actually being there. Like a rolling thunder ending up in the bigger smash when it is close to you. It is in everything.

Maybe now it becomes more clear how I experienced the best bass drum ever (I talked about this elsewhere). So, whether a real bass drum, a sampled one or a sheer synthesized one, man, I can't explain this. All the roar, the deep founded tones, the develop to whatever it is to be in the end.
I can tell you, the "BlueTech" rototoms (this is a certain kind of tom drum which the fastest attack possible) ... I noticed them day before yesterday like "huh ?!? him too ??", while yesterday during the "bad test" they were not there AT ALL. Like it being a complete different track. Later, within the "good test" again, they sure were there.

Here we again have one of your nice mysteries, because when I listen to e.g. Shpongle with the very same means of breaks by rototoms, I don't see the difference. It is the most characterization of that type of music, and now suddenly Schulze (what is it, 2001 ?) uses the very same in the very same fasion. I never noticed it, nor did I in the "bad test" (while knowing already they were there !).

All is about the balance. It is as different as you will be able to imagine, and it is one of these situations that I can't ever imagine that both versions are bit perfect. Still they are, or something else must be tricking me. It seems impossible anyway.
I can tell you, assuming you will be able to experience the same as I do for the difference, if you had the money you would shell out 200K euro instantly.
But this is for free.

Ah, wait. You are not sure what I exactly did, right ?
Well, I just told it, but the combination looks unsure. Ok, here we go with the normal sequence :

1. Had to uninstall W7 SP1 RC because it expired;
2. While I was rid of it anyway, somehow I had the urge to listen to it. So I did. Stood there for 2.5 hours with open mouth.
3. Installed SP1 RTM for further testing. So bad that I really would have shut it of and go on.

Ad 2.
We must notice here that RC always has sounded good to our ears. However, the experience form now means that it can be way way better again. I would *not* have noticed or do anything about the bad sound coming from RC, because it just sounded like a sh*tty album of which there are more these days - weren't it for me listening to W7 Vanilla.

Ad 3.
I can't be sure about to what degree RTM sounds worse than RC. I didn't test it, and I guess it will never happen anymore. Oh, I could install RTM again and listen to my regular (test)stuff and see how it is changed compared to RC. But then I must be very fast, because all I know now is that I want to listen to W7 vanilla.
It won't happen.

This Vol.3 album contains a 45 minute track of constant pondering of the most interesting basses I have ever experienced. Some rave about my bass, and I did too. Well, worth nothing compared to this. Space ships, left to right raging walls of sound. Smashing windows a la Mike Oldfield's Amarok in the middle. ROAR. Still 45 minutes of the same melody and rythm. I don't want such a track to end. Still they do. But wait, there's 13 more volumes in this Work. Haha.

I can't rave more. Can't write more long-threaded either. Well, I want it to be a story. More important than any NOS1 maybe, although I feel it will be related;  read : maybe for someone without an NOS1 no differences are to be heard.

One thing seems clear to me : this must be about what we did ourselves to tweak the OS first. It was per se NOT so that RC sounded so bad compared to vanilla. Nothing will have changed to that, but WE changed. We got new XX versions, with my own 0.9z-6 to the extreme of that.

What I recall foremost, is that at the decision between Vista, W7 and W7 SP1 RC there were talks about deeper bass. Well, by now we can bet this was the W7 vanilla showing the best bass, the rest of it being wrong (up to distorted sound I recall). For sure W7 carried better bass than Vista, and most probably with RC some of it vanished again. SOME ? man, all of it. I know now. But it is not the low end of that. It sits higher.

I can not imagine that nothing will be perceived from this when using 0.9z-5-2. I say : go for it. Uninstall SP1 and judge. But careful, because it doesn't show in all music, and at this time I don't know where to look for, unless it is about these specific albums. Or some of the Goa stuff I tried by now, because it really makes a synth roar (and like I'm used to it from ever back btw). Watch for the fundament of things. Could be about the sound of a violin, while now suddenly the cabinet speaks (more).

Ah, I forgot to tell, and it could be the most important of it all :
I never heard something sounding more analogue than these Schulze albums.
Can you imagine ?
But then Moog synthesizers are analogue devices ...

Peter

well Peter , many thanks for this ! I was just going to believe myself that SP1 RTM was completely s**t , compared to wat I was listening before , had the impression from the first listening last week though  I had to estimate its relevance in the bad way.  Quick enough , Sp1 RTM is uninstalled from my system  and back to vanilla W7  . Listening some music  now .

 ;)

Hi Peter,

When you mention "Vanilla" flavor, do you mean that enything added to the Win 7 initial installation should not be applied, or simply not install SP1 ?

Alain

Good question Alain;

I never applied (and apply) *any* upgrade. This is only looking for misery once all runs. Of course unless there's urgency somehow, but I never noticed (heard about) something like that.

You will see though that one "KB" will be left from the uninstall (it can even be a newly installed one, at least when the RC is uninstalled), and this one can not be removed. So all updates I have is this KB (I'm not there to look which one it is).

Also notice that most often a next Service Pack comprises of all of the KB upgrades you received meanwhile. Thus, this may lead to again that SP. Better uninstall them all (again, unless you know the good reason of them being there).

Peter

If  in need of more references , an album called Body and Soul by Joe Jackson , can guide you through all of this as well . And in there there is the magnificent music , well if you "know" it , that allows you to understand which way is the good way of listening it and the other way , the bad , which exactly point you toward the  Peter's excellent above explanations of the facts . A particular note to the bass , that suddenly ( after removing SP's ) became back to its natural "highness" ( instead of being pressed down to the floor ) , the horns with lots of precision and space around them , a non-obsessive stage . Harsh in the high regions gone away completely, delicacy and power of the rithms .Difficult to talk about those things in music , but ...

Reading this, I get one thought I had so often in the last month. Is there no way to get rid of this influnces by the OS and so on? Maybe a very simple hardware that just runs XX using some tiny little OS that can not mess things up? Changes of the sound by installing SP1 RC or what ever are in the end out of our control and will come and go. How can we grab that problem by the root and solve it once and for all?

Okay, then the quickest way to work would be to re-install (clean partition) W7 without any updates. At least until all is working well (meaning XX and related things).

Uninstalling all previous updates will take forever!

This means that I'll loose my activation (again) or is there an easy way to prevent that from happening?

I could spend hours reading back trying to find the answer but perhaps it is on topic to ask here and you know the answer from the top of your head?

Bert

Bert,
make a backup of your activation code file in your XXHE folder and keep the name of your computer the same when you reinstall Windows. This worked for me and I did not have to get a new activation code.

Cheers,
Eric 

Bert, if that fails you will get a new one. No problem (as you know).

Peter

Peter could open a second business line in assembling and sales of dedicated music servers with an optimized OS destined for XXH.

Joachim

Hi Peter,

Thanks for the answer. I removed everything I could. Took about 45 minutes to do so and everythng is running smoothly :-)

I feel like I am guided more than I would expect, but the results speak for themselves. Thanks !

Alain

Will do, thanks for the tip!

Bert

I know that...  :thankyou: I just do not want to bother you with my "user" problems.

Hopefully giving you more time to get me in line sooner for a major hardware update!

Bert

After reading this thread late last night I bit the bullet and installed, this time directly onto my SSD, plain ol' vanilla original RTM version of Win7 Ultimate X64. Got it to the state where I could play something (quietly) and called it a night. Today I backed up the system so I have a base configuration if I need to go back, and then spent an hour or so going through the services and disabling, or setting to manual, as needed.

I then loaded Klaus Schulze's Disc 3 from his Works I set, and hit play.

MY GOODNESS !! Really tight deep bass and a wonderful crisp and clear mid and top end. What had I (we) been missing all these months. Suffice to say I listened to the album all the way thru, and used a gazillion calories tapping and bobbing my hands and feet. Blissful indeed. I then put another few tracks on that I'm familiar with, and the same newfound joy followed. It was a whole new ball game again :)

Kudos to Peter for having had the insight to play some things after removing SP1 RC, rather than blindly chucking SP1 RTM on.

Leaving the system in a vanilla state without ANY updates has my wholehearted endorsement.

Cheers,

Russ

 

This is what I keep thinking and saying. It just doesn't make sense to use an all purpose computer/OS as the platform for "the perfect sound." It's like starting with a Volkswagon as your base for building a Ferrari.

-Chris

Thanks Peter. When I uninstalled SP1 all the updates contained within SP1 automatically installed, 85 of them! That's my best guess cause my system is set not to receive updates nor was I connected to the internet when I uninstalled SP1. I then had to manually uninstall those updates, which did not take as long as reinstalling the OS. Anyway the improvement in SQ is substantial. Very much more analogue sounding. To see if I could hear the difference I first tried "I Got Rythm"  from the Bassface Trio Plays Gershwin CD. This is probably my most well recorded 16/44 file. I was shocked. The piano had the true accoustic sound of a wooden instrument. I listen to that disc a lot and I'd never heard the piano sound like that before, analogue overtones like it's is in the room.

Also, Itook your advise and have been listening with a new amp for several months now. Solid state 150 watts per channel (Odyssee Stratos Plus) using anticable wire to connect the speakers. Geeze the mids and the base have been in my room in a new way; however this latest "remove SP1 discovery" has made my volkswagan system totally unrecognizable.

Talk about service, Peter and his family came to my house during their travels in the US last spring. Had a great time and, whether he knows it or not, a great, though brief, education in audio. The sound level meter  he gifted me has been used often to "prove" to my dear wife that the music is not too loud!

Again, Thanks.

LOL

Well, did we have a great time or didn't we !
I can only hope that you did not convert to Rick's jazz. Haha
(just kidding, what a great guy he is anyway, hey, all of you !)

Ok. I don't understand what happened with your uninstall - and next 85 individual KB's installed automatically ? how ? Did you have Auto-updates on perhaps ?
Anyway that did not happen to me.

Well, we now have Volkswagons, Volkswagans, and I guess we also could try Volkswogans. They are strong.
Overhere we stick to Volkswagens, although I have seen those in the US too.

Best regards,
Peter

Does anyone know how to uninstall SP1 when it came originally with the system?. I mean without having to uninstall and reinstall the whole system. It looks that´s impossible...

Non of this works: http://www.ghacks.net/2011/02/23/how-to-uninstall-windows-7-service-pack-1/ (http://www.ghacks.net/2011/02/23/how-to-uninstall-windows-7-service-pack-1/)

Juan

Djeeez what a sound!! Extra layer all over! Unbelievable that it was under our hands all the time.  :)

Small remark:

System is more sensitive for small ticks so now and than. (Mixed mode) Or maybe now we can hear them and they were there all the time.

 :xx:

I agree with Gerard!

Just uninstalled SP1 and most updates - three 'KBs' remain which I can't uninstall.

Ummmmmm...

There seems to be a marked increase in upper bass which makes the overall sound much smoother. I mean, totally, totally analogue-sounding. Rich and full harmonics. Utterly listenable. Nothing disturbing.

BUT... I'm not hearing the extra detail that some of you seem to be reporting.

Mani.

I have noticed that also. I raised the Q1 a few levels to compensate. I've noticed it more with hi-res content (176.4 & 196). Anyone else experience this and does raising Q1 help? I have my new rebuild pretty much tweaked to how it was with SP1 RC installed, but I may have missed a couple of items that still need turning off/disabling.

Cheers,

Russ

I was in the same situation. When I initially built the Win7 environment I had slipstreamed SP1 RC into the install disc, and when I attempted to uninstall it a few days back was unable to find a way.

It's only a few hours rebuilt time, and you could waste almost that much time searching the net for a possible solution, so just accept that a rebuild is needed and just jump in. It's worth the effort :)

Cheers,

Russ

That´s ok Russ, I will...Thanks!

Juan

Did someone ? maybe. But at least this is not what I notice.
But freshness and freshness are two things. That which jumps out (before, and possibly implying mote detail -> logic) and that which is natural (now). It has fundament. This may (or will) mask the detail.
But much more is "playable" now, and not only that. Way more interesting in my humble opinion.

Peter

I   I

I

I hate you guys .....


haha I just installed win 7 64 and shoulda known not to update, but somehow I thought I read that latest xxhe is/was moving toward win not having an influence.

I'm not even going to listen I'm just going to start uninstallin.
but what about all those "security updates"  I generally am not connected to the internet and shut off network/malwarebytes when not connected, but there are times I hook up to the internet.  Should Malwarebytes be sufficient to save me from malware/viruses? or no se?

Go on Dave .. you know you can't resist having a sneak listen while you have the service pack installed ;)

Cheers,

Russ

Dave, FYI :

Any anti virus/malware is "devistating" to sonic performance. In the end it will be removed by XX from memory (when you ask to shut down all the services), or you have to do it because the services removal won't go otherwise.

In the due 0.9z-6 those ever slowing down antivirus etc. stuff won't even get a chance, so you better prepare for living without.
And well, I never used any antivirus software on any of my PC's. But you got to learn to smell them coming ... :)
Don't ask for the programs/sites with Z in them, for example.

but

It is always a good thing to have antivirus software around (registered and all), because when you *have* a virus, the first thing which is tough is getting on the internet to obtain that software.

Peter

Malwarebytes is great when I'm on the internet but I have a whole routine of shutting lots of stuff down, including malwarebytes, when listening to music...I start with the bios shutting down network/usb (i even remove cables not being used in case there's some passive electrical influence) ... and then move to shutting down software and rebooting half a dozen times. geez don't you know me by now?

Hi Peter - Arrrgghh  :(  :( but I thought that NOS1 Async USB was not going to be affected by the o/s or any settings. So why is it affected? I thought XX was being loaded onto and then run actually on NOS USB or have I misunderstood?

Wouldn't it be easier to make the PC dual boot with W7 pre SP1 on one partition (with no virus/malware s/w) and the full latest updated version of W7 on the other partition (with virus & malware s/w etc). So then it is easy to boot to the pre W7 SP1 partition for XX listening sessions and boot to the other partition to do any *work* or housekeeping and virus checks etc.

Anyway I will load a completely stripped (what you could call a tiny pre SP1 W7 version) on a separate partition. I used to do this on my laptop and it was the only way I could get XX to work with limited resources and it worked very well.

Hey Mani if you read this I think you suggested doing this when I saw you last - so now I will do it and report back for our edification  ;)

P

Yea, well, uhm ...


At least this should not be true. Ok, if you feel you need to do a complete reinstall, yes (depending on what you all installed). Like me, I could/can not do that.
But uninstalling the Service Pack - it goes in a whimp (ok, 10 minutes maybe).

If you let your system auto-upgrade the MS provided upgrades, you are "foolish" to say the least. You will NEVER know what happened when at one day SQ goes bad. I thought this was the unwritten rule #1, but apparently it must be written somewhere ?


But now on to the real matters ...


I started this topic with the suggestion I now most probably would be the most confusing. This is not only for the reason of going back to W7 Vanilla (while at first we had to move away from it on my indication (!)), but also because of my earlier notice indeed that the influence of the OS would be out of the way largely - or to some extend. Of course at creating the topic I already knew this was not the case. This by itself needs interpretation which seems to be beyond myself, but I'll give it a try a again :

XXHighEnd eliminated her own influence

This is important, because it you look/search back, this is really the only thing I said. Btw including "I don't know about laptops yet".

The point is : this is tough to understand.

- First we need XXHighEnd to tweak the OS settings and such, so XXHighEnd won't influence anymore;
- Next the OS is on her own for what ever merits *that* is.

Think about my ever recurring statement that a DAC can be influenced (and don't forget, it is about that in the end !), and that I liked to build a DAC free of that. Well, that worked ! It worked regarding the influence software in general has, like XXHighEnd now does not have it anymore.
And as I also always stated, that would bring you the real merits of your DAC, hoping that is for the better. It is theory that it never will be, DACs being wrong in the first place always (just because "digital" ain't 100% right - which is the base of all. So, better allow for some backdoor manipulation).

All I can say now, and in all honesty, is that I may be a tad disapointed that there is still influence possible (yes, even to a huge degree beyond understanding), but now by the OS on its own. Say, as raw as possible.

Mind you - and please get this !!! - I for myself am talking about XXHighEnd 0.9z-6 which is a way way more tweaking of the OS than any other version before did, and STILL it happens. What ? well, that the OS gives the nature to the sound (IOW, no need to wait for 0.9z-6).
So let's keep in mind the sequence of happening (fairly abbreviated now) :

1. W7 Vanilla sounds way bad with XX from a small year back (this should be repeatable);
2. W7 SP1 RC (and RTM to some lesser degree) sounds way good with XX from that same era.
3. W7 SP1 RC/RTM actually doesn't sound good at all per the later XX versions. BUT, this is the conclusion only, from going back to
4. W7 Vanilla sounds the best of it all with current XX versions (including 0.9z-6 which may emphasize it, I can't tell until you use it).

It will per se NOT be so that in between 2 and 3 something went wrong. Too many people with too good ears around, and no complaints were to be heard. I did not have complaints myself either, except for maybe the NOS1-USB showing more critical on the music which was critical already.
Therefore it must be the conclusion that W7 Vanilla with the later/current XX versions just made things better, and better than ever before.
Lastly, notice that I know what happened to XX at some stage, which will be at the stage that everybody started telling "this is it". Look back in the "Your thoughts about the Sound Quality" board and you can clearly see where the trials stopped for everybody. Whether all the sweetspots (settings) are the same for everybody is another matter, but something happend (in the technical realm) which made people stop seeking (again, I know what that change is).

This same thing will now let W7 Vanila work out for the best, while -somehow- SP1 exactly does not. We thought it did, but it will have been the wrong thing, and I myself at this moment have no clue where that is (yet). What I do know is that W7 Vanilla had all the priorities wrong (unlogical things happened) which vanished with SP1. Still, in the mean time XX could already cope with these strange priority stuff, and I never took that out. In my imagination this contributes to Vanilla now sounding good, although it can't be all of it (and it won't, see what I just said).

There should be no hesitation from anyone to revert to W7 Vanilla. I can not guarantee that it works out for everyone, but I really think it will. If not with 0.9z-5-2, then with 0.9z-6. Still, if it doesn't work out, SP1 is reinstalled in again a whimp (30 minutes this time). It is not hard. But shut off those upgrades !!

What is left is my totally not understanding how the difference can be so huge. As all is bit perfect at all times (no, I did not re-check that) there must be going on some really large impact on noise - somewhere, somehow. It feels like a voltage difference of 1V (peak) or so in the upper bass regions, which is relative to 2V which is the maximum. It is all brute force now coming from the speakers. Real huge space ships floating by, while before it were mimiced space ships resulting in small snipers. It really is not in the lowest regions (they seem to have stayed the same, subwoofers and all here). It results in fundament. In how synthesizers produce that very warm holographic sound, instead of just accurate stuff which makes them sound digital (remember, I own a few myself).

I can not imagine this is not measureable, but how to do that. Two systems perhaps, after they are judged to sound the same, and next put one of them in SP1 mode. It may take days of work, which time I don't have.

Take it for granted.
Until a next topic about this pops up of course. :swoon:

Peter

I've just been listening to Keith Jarrett's Koln Concert and this is one example where the merits of vanilla W7 really shine for me. The piano has tended to sound too thin in the past... especially with the NOS1. But now, it has so much body and harmonic texture. Oh and even the clapping sounds more real. And this really helps with conveying emotion of the music. I can kind of understand why some people prefer the sound of tubes if they artificially create this sort of sound. But the great thing is that we just don't have to...

I'm really, really enjoying the improved mid-/upper-bass performance of vanilla W7. Yes, the highs are now less emphasized, but that's OK by me.

As an interesting aside, I can totally destroy the merits of vanilla W7 by simply switching on my 'Schumann Resonator' (set to its highest setting). The mid-/upper-bass vanishes and the 'brightness' of W7 SP1 returns in spades. I wonder if the SR is creating a bunch of LF harmonics (based around the 7Hz fundamental) that have a cancelling out effect - I don't know, but I definitely know that I don't like it.

Mani.

After installing W7 vanilla these are my first impressions:

In general I agree with other people here about the richer upper bass but

- Not as big differences as some other see with the previous W7 SP1

- Less smoothness and as a result less charm. Now it´s slightly less darker contrary to what it could seems. It´s just a feeling that I couldn´t affirm categorically because the highs are really smooth.

- Soundstage a little less wide

- More presence of the voice that seems more real with better dimensionality in the soundstage, that could explain the light, very light indeed if any, shrink in the width and the apparent lose of smoothness

 -It looks like the recorded sound is reproduced with more fidelity. Maybe the better upperbass gives more presence to the voice and more body in general and that without darkening the sound.

-Obviously the differences are more evident in music with more large spectrum where the notes around the bass region are emphasized (Baremboin-Mi Buenos Aires querido). The piano is really well reproduced.


At the end, as you can see, not big differences but the one with the voice looks of enough importance for me to stay with the vanilla version, mostly thinking that it seems that the differences will be more noticeable in the XX next version.


Music tested:

The Tony Rich Project. WORDS. Tony Rich (LaFace Records)

Mi Buenos Aires querido. Baremboin (Teldec)

Tarres/Serrat, Cansiones. Joan Manuel Serrat (BMG)


Just one more thing: I already asked about it and even I think that there was some post on the issue, but again: Wouldn´t be possible to make the volume increments in 0,5db steps?. In a high resolution system there is a noticeable difference.

PS: Peter, last night I went to bed very late trying to finish the W7 installation, you sent me the activation code at 04:00 AM and I later kept thinking, man this guy goes to bed as late as me or HE WOKE UP ALREADY?.  :clever:

Juan

Woke up already. :cry: :)

Impressive!!, ok I understand your tears

Juan

Another "listening evening" has passed, and my mind still did not change. But, as types of music pass by, I may have some interesting remarks, and withgoing (made up on the spot) reasoning. Just thoughts, and just context. No laws (later maybe).

Of course we must assume that my audio chain is not tricking me and that my ears are okay. Neither is necessarily true, but I hope both are. All I know is that my chain doesn't produce strangenesses for measurements, *and* that I had to adjust things just there once working with the NOS1-USB. Without that nothing seemed to be rigth (all further theories being good). For your reference, notice that I am talking about not the slightest addition to mainly the noise spectrum, that being down at something like 115dB IIRC, after amplification (amps at full gain). This, opposed to many who will perceive audible noise from the "low sensitivity" speakers at cranking up the volume, while here nothing is audible with my "high sensivity" horns obviously. Keep in mind that when this is not good, all will be moot and no real conclusions can be drawn from any OS (or XX version).

A further thing to again notice is my useage of that NOS1-USB, which a. sustains transients 100% (impulse resonse can't better so to speak) and which b. theoretically allows for high frequency hash as the result of a.
This makes comparison not easy (rather undoable in writing to eachother instead of listening both to the same), but all what it tells me that if anyone has a headstart for the better sound while something else is not 100%, it will be you, not me. The "you" should then be referring to non-NOS1 users, however, since I know what a huge difference the NOS1-USB makes, it can even include normal NOS1 users as the "you's".

Now, I'm sure I reported elsewhere that the high output really went crazy with the NOS1-USB, but that I could find no single example of that being distorted. It is as pure as it can be, just loud. But also : too loud for quite some examples I have. Should still be good because of the pureness coming from it. This was with SP1 (RC in my case). Now Vanilla :

Apart from the impacting bass Vanilla shows, the highs changed all over. Ok, no disagreement about that I think.
Also, by now, I'm fairly sure this is not about masking (by the higher bass output).

After playing more music, it is clear to me that this "pure" is not there anymore. BUT, careful, because this is merely about not having the opportunity to judge it, because the highs have melted into the lower regions better. In any event, I never have this "wow, so accurate" anymore, and this will be because it doesn't jump out anymore. But you bet I judge this as way better, just because all with the strange too high output now plays normally. Aha ...

Of course the latter is of utmost importance, because if you have read all I wrote the past weeks, you will have seen that I started to change my mind about "good recordings", and whether this was about "I'm not even sure whether this is a bad recording", or whether it was about remasters which really are not right - in the mean time these could not be played anymore. Well, let's say that there's much more around which sounded better, so why listen to the poor.
Why ? well, because it can be nice music. That's why. And it bothered me. Of course it also bothered me because I dedicated it to the NOS1-USB being too good or something. But hey, "too good" really does not exist when it works out for the worse (for those particular albums).

When things really change, I have a partner overhere who will notice. Or notice "things". And so it happened yesterday that I was thrown a "hey, this sounded dull !". Dull won't be the correct english word, but I can tell you this was about 2 or 3 blankets ...
And at listening to the track, I of course had the same experience. That blanket (or two) really exists ...

Things will now become very difficult right away, because it needs my own and personal reasoning, which won't be yours. It will be too hard to understand because it needs all the history of things and what (we all and) I experienced here. Also, I could be wrong, but write it down anyway, as I do most of the time. And so I can now refer to what I said elsewhere about albums which always sounded overley fresh but just good in balance, which did not work out at all anymore with the NOS1-USB because they were wrong. They could not have been like that for their age, but they still sounded so fresh and good. Something must have happened to them back then (thing of equalizing, whatever).

This has vanished again.
But with the sema phenomenon in force (whatever that exactly is) it backfires a little, because the albums which were not tampered with - and should be sounding more dull, thinking of their era (no talking about "age" !), now sound dull.
Oh boy.

Contrary to before, I now seem to be able to see consistency in it all, and it only tells me that it now should all be good. So, good for that base, which this time appears to be W7 Vanilla.
It is the most good that I ran into such a dull album, because it gave me the opportunity to hear (through) this blanket, instead of not knowing what you are talking about. So, from this moment on I was able to listen for the blankets in other music, and it really, really is not there. If it was in general I a. would have already noticed before, and b. I for sure would have been able to hear it now. But, completely nothing of the kind.

The conclusion of this MUST be, that all what was fresh but should not earlier on, was distortion. The higher frequency "hash" I was talking about eralier. Can happen easily too, because it wouldn't be so much different from NOS/Filterless DACs, which are way more fresh too, but only because of distortion. I don't say that that souinds bad, I only say it is. :)
And so it should sound bad, but it highly depends on the music.

If one is used to the high output of the high "frequencies", it is easy to hear blankets everywhere. But *now* it depends on the performance of your chain as a whole. What I can say, with my chain at least, is that *all* has improved in the higher frequencies, just because there is more colour. That colour seems to emerge from the small interruptions in those same high frequencies, which again is those on/off sound I dedicated to W7 Vanilla earlier on (say end of 2010). I am not yet saying that this on/off is 100% okay, but it seems to. It doesn't disturb, and it just as well maybe the cancelling out of frequencies (those always changing) in the horn throat. Comb stuff.

To make it more complex for you, the way the bass behaves is about 100% the same as when USB was "distorting" as hell. Not that this was expliccitly audible, but I could measure it. So, that distortion created that good bass. Or at least it had to be, because it was there right when I started with USB, and it (sadly) went away when the distortion (actually noise) was out. Then though, there was no consistency in anything. And moreover, if anywhere a blanket was present, it was in that stage. Impossible to live with that, although I tried tit for a week. I tried because of the bass, but my brains could not cope with the lacking highs. But now let's see further :

This sounded perfectly the same as a Berkely Audio Design Alpha DAC. Super silk highs turning your brain inside out because they want to perceive the real highs. This DAC is considered to be a fairly good one, you know. Well, is it ?

This is not so important. But what is, is that quite some more of this "behaviour" exists, and it is all a matter of filtering. No, not that story again, but I know what it does, and what it takes down on high frequencies. It is the 180 degree other story compared to NOS.
*Now* imagine what you, with those kind of DACs, want to get out of your system ... MORE HIGHS !
But I can assure you that when this succeeds, it will be wroing all over. It officially can't, but when it does anyway, this can be about distortion only. Mind you, not really audible as such, but high frequencies which emerge from not well processed lower ones. They become squary, and therefore more high frequent.

And thus, take out that distorting element, and the highs get lower. Ehm, those which were fake, NOT the good ones !!
(this is no story only -> what is genuine will stay, and what is fake because of distortion based will go away without the distortion).

And so I notice it here. And I really payed attention.
Peter

PS: At this time I can't make *all* completely consistent, and one of that is the better bass output with higher noise as with USB at first. Of course this should lead to the thinking that right now (Vanilla) there's just spades of whatever noise ...

PPS: I must apologize again about only being able to judge my 0.9z-6, and not being able to listen to 0.9z-4-1 again (for software reasons). Maybe later.

Just to let you know about blankets and stuf ...

I just listened to the first tracks of Waltz for Debby, and the high frequency output only got HIGHER.

I am not sure where this can end ...

Peter, maybe after you finish with 0.9z-6 you should take some time off from audio listening (for professional purposes). Not that I want you to, your thoughts are way too interesting (and confusing). But, how can you possibly keep everything straight, and really rely on any particular impression? I would think that your ears and brain need a rest. They may need time to refresh, and they need time to digest all the input and information you've allowed them over the recent months.

It also might be interesting if you just listened to other people's systems for a while (no NOS1's allowed) for some real world perspective to bring back to your lab.

I know it's kind of weird that I'm saying this, and I'm not even sure if I mean it. But I do know that when one gets away, for a while, from things that one is very involved with one often sees things differently and more clearly.

-Chris

Haha. Advice well taken. But now I need my morning coffee first to get things straight.

Thanks Chris,
Peter

Well, I need my 2 a.m. coffee to keep things straight. (Maybe I'll make it wine.)

-Chris

P.S. With only about 30 or 40 people in your country, how come you have so many guys producing cutting edge NOS dacs over there?

First is, that I really should. Call it a day. But the point is, all is planned for, and the only thing I seem to be able t is "rush" to a next milestone, put that up and take a breath. "If only that is out ...". But it can never last long;
I have to immediately start the next subject, which mostly is about better sound again. You could say I do this for myself, but next feel the pressure to share as soon as possible. That's how it started, and that is how it still is.

And I live by challenges.

What's in the genes is getting sound reproduction 100% right. I think I'm fairly close by now, which also makes it so much more easy. Compare to live (instruments) and subjectiveness is hardly possible. If something sounds wrong I *will* find the reason - or I have to put it to rest because I don't see how to solve it. Otherwise I will solve it once I set myself to it. The latter is the dangerous one because I never stopped anything in my life I thought was possible.

Nice coffee ...
Peter

Hi Peter,

we are back in square I.

Installed 0.9z-4.1 on a RAM disk again.

The SQ is less "aggressive", nice highs with the cymbals, mids improved and the sound is smoother now. That is my impression.

Joachim

Mani,
To each his own. This High Rez file for me is perhaps the cherry on the top of my high rez, it sounds swell thru the DAC 202 also.

This is a typical problem if there is no refenrece that stayes constant. This also was a reason for me to buy a CD-Tansport. Now I can really compare to something and not just to the latest "best" sounding settings in xx. The danger is realy big to go in a circle that way.
My computer reboots after some time because my windows licence has run out. If the new xx will be there, I make a fresh install of W7 and will try the vanilla sound :)

Yup, and information/senses overload with all the settings and configurations. I decided to stop using XX a while back, because I want to be able to hear XX-6 with fresh ears. In the mean time I'm using a very convenient capable digital file player and I'll be interested to hear how different/better? XX-6 sounds, once it becomes available.

-Chris

I love convenient but only if it sounds good....which player are you using in the mean time?

Bert

Hi Bert, I don't want to mention particular players here just because it doesn't seem right (competition and the like) even if Peter doesn't care about it. I'll pm info about it to you.

-Chris

Hi guys,

I could quote a couple of more phrases, but I'm afraid that I put *you all* in a quite confusing state, while my senses still seem okay. Seem ... haha.

Anyway, I'm well into a week of listening to W7 Vanilla, and really nothing made me change my mind. The treshhold for this is always 5 days, but maybe I indeed (but driven by nature) wasn't seeking for all the music styles and explicitly test/listen for merits there. So, maybe I'm more drawn to the "and how will this now sound ?!?" and put up something of a same style, instead of the mixed bag really needed to judge a "100% well".

Still I think I know enough.

For the "back to square one" people ... no. It really is not like that. It might when you suddenly start using older XX versions. It sure might if you suddenly put up your RAMDisks. DON'T ! (unless you still used that/them of course). You will be too much confusing yourselves ...

That we all should wait for 0.9z-6 really is something else, and about introducing confusement - yes, my fault. But I think 0.9z-6 will be up soon now.

Keep in mind please :

- Older XX versions are worse for theories. My theories, but still.
- RAMDisk is *not* good. If it sounds better in your system, something else is wrong.
- SSD, same story. It is not good.
- W7 version ? I am quite sure SP1 is not good. But :

Since when am I the only one judgeing this ? I never was and never want to be. So, at this time I must be judged as ignorant, wrong, or deaf. But wait until 0.9z-6 is out, and then let's see again. Still no agreement ? Also no agreement within the NOS1 group ? ...

... then I am not ignorant, wrong, or deaf - but needed your opinion and some pointing out. It never has been different and it should not be different.

Take it easy,
Peter

Hi Peter,

in your release note for 0.9z-5 you wrote:
 - Expected SQ changes compared to 0.9z-4-1 : NONE. -
But this was with W7 SP1 RC.

With plain W7 I hear differences between both releases now.
You have been unsatisfied with plain W7 in the beginning of 2011, until Marcin came up with SP1 RC, and now we are in a "technical sense" back in 2011, Jan.

To make a long story short, we are eager to listen to 0.9z-6 soon.

best

Joachim

Hi Joachim, thank you.
If you only can agree that back then you did *not* hear the difference (not that you must, but this is what I get from your post), then I could be right ...


Exactly. And the real mistake I will have made is that I never imagined the combination as off now cold make the (and that) difference. But I guess you (and not only you) are indirectly telling me this. And I sure believe it. No doubts about *that*.

Regards,
Peter

:offtopic:


Hey, you must have added this later ! (well, I didn't see it before)

Not sure. But we have Philips here, and I guess that in the far end a lot springs or sprung from there. I even worked there myself (but in software).

I'm also not sure whether "so many" good DACs or other official Audio comes from here, but we are an "Audio land" from origine. This may express better from e.g. DIYAudio (which I don't frequent) which sometimes looks like a dutch site, and the dutch guys showing up there know there abouts.

I don't want to suggest or insinuate anything special, and sure not with some explicit reason, but I feel that the level - if I am allowed to speak like that - is quite different from other countries. For example, looking at recording companies, I'm sure we perform quite well if not the best, considering Norway the other "best". Nothing else seems to come close. But, my judgement, my vision.

Dutch lyrics (but include Belgium) ... I really tried my best to replace myself into the english language ... but nothing comes close to that. It is by far out the best - about real life things. Think Bob Dylan but then superceeded by far, because more genuine, more to the point, and more daring at times.
I can't tell about other languages but german and french of course, so maybe swahili outperforms the dutch language here.

Again, not really knowing about large scale audio products from Holland (we in Holland exclude Philips exclusively - don't laugh now), "we" were always saying that audio comes from the UK. It still might, and I am not much into it anymore. And to give you an indication of how "we" always were (at least in some past) : "mwah, American sound - not for me".
(next I bought Infinity speakers).
Same with Germany, as an audio producing country, but very different sound.

Whether it is beyond you maybe, I don't know, but countries really go for a certain sound. Of course, in the end this can't be, assuming sound should not be subjective but real. Which country "is better" ? I don't know. But in the end it is about the people behind it plus the market they envision.


As said, we have Philips. Never mind *we* don't like their products much, this is (or at least has been in the past) a most innovating technical company. Maybe the most (and the worst for marketing). The people knowing a few things about audio, often worked at Philips. Those DIYAudio guys ? I think they all did.
What also may help is that we have quite innovating university programs. Ok, this may be the same everywhere, but because of the density it will be more easy for students to find an "end study project" (I hope you understand what I mean) which really let them explore new stuff. This is a must overhere : without doing something for this end study (which is being 8 months within a normal company) being completely new, you won't graduate. So, think 1000s of university students each year, and they *have* to make up something which wasn't done before. This automatically integrates with this company they recide.

Thinking of it ... suppose this would be an IT student, or maybe signal processing, I could call out for the university concerned for one or two or however many it needs students, to create an audio dedicated OS. From the ground up. It would cost me hardly anything.

Btw, and on another small subject, I wouldn't underestimate the "intelligence" from countries lile Poland. Or Russia deviates. We don't have such a thing overhere, but there this is explicit. I won't say this is the difference between north and south of USA, but something like that and really explicit. The "intelligence" is bound to come up with innovating stuff, never mind the lacking resources. Take rockets. It's a way of living.

Ok, I'll stop now.
Peter

Before I forget it :

Take Yello - Touch as an example to try. I think many will have this album.

Somehow - I don't know why - this is a most tough album to let sound right. It did before (but this must have been a year back or so) and lately it did not at all. Some strange sibilance exhibits throughout. Or, that *can* happen when undoubtedly things are not right.
Yesterday I recalled this, so I tried it again. Completely nothing wrong with it anymore.

Everybody in what ever (OS) stage at this moment, should try it now. I mean, before 09z-6. Later listen to it again for comparison. So, this is nothing about better bass or better highs or whatever, but about something being/going completely wrong. Similar to Boleary's expression about Griffin (hey, where is your response ? :)).

Peter

Yup, you didn't see it. You should know by now that I always slip stuff in. I can't just write about one thing.

And speaking of Philips, the first reel to reel recorder I remember owning (and I loved reel to reels--my last was one of those lovely Swedish or Norwegian jobs; I can't remember the company name for the moment) was a funny looking thing (actually I think it was Norelco--but aren't they and Philips related?) with 5"? reels, sort of on one end.

So I have a soft spot in my heart for Philips/Norelco--but just a tiny one, a little bigger than the one for Sony which was created by a superbly built hi-end Walkman (if that's not a total oxymoron) and has eroded to next to nothing since.

-Chris

Will either of these Yello albums do for the test?  1980-1985 "The New Mix in One Go" or "The Eye." Cause that's all I got.

-Chris

No, not that I know of. I always could keep playing The Eye with pleasure. That "New Mix" I didn't play for a long time.

So what makes "Touch" so special that it can sound lousy or great at the touch of XX? That's rhetorical of course, since if you knew, you'd know, if you know what I mean. But still...

-Chris

Hello Peter, guys
one friend just send me this link with windows 8 dev. vers.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/apps/br229516
I'll try it later tonight to see how stable and operative is and will try to start XX but unfortunately I don't have good USB DAC now :(
Cheers, Cris.

Thanks for the link Cris. I have just grabbed the X64 version and will have a play tomorrow on a test HDD in my music server. Hopefully I can get the audio driver for the Juli@ working, otherwise it's 'all over red rover'.

Will provide some feedback one way or other.

Cheers,

Russ

Let's say that this continues here : Windows 7 SP1 Surprise (http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=1881.0).

But summarized : back to SP1 for those who like that better, or for those where it works out for the better in their system.

I know this for a while - could not be sure to what degree it was related to my own (new) NOS1-USB - but :

Let's say that at least everybody has been "forced" to try it out. Was Vanilla better for you ? good. Then leave it like that, or install SP1 again and retry. It all goes fairly fast and easy. Back again the same (takes somewhat longer).

Case closed. Ok, this topic.
Peter