XXHighEnd

Dear all,

Next Thursday, November 25 20:00 the monthly meeting of Audio Vereniging Midden Nederland will be held. I myself am not a member, but have been invited to "support" the new open baffle loudspeakers from Bert Doppenberg (BD-Design) with the best source possible.

For those thinking that Open Baffle may be the future ... I've heard them, and I think I can promise a never before heard sound with air and even more air, combined with an SPL that, well, also could be unheard before from an open baffle speaker. The new Diamond series from Bert go even down to 30Hz for the large version (on the "show"), and I will be there myself to play some Yello to proove it (in the failry large listening room).

As some of you may know, me and Bert personally took care of bringing music playback through loudspeakers to a higher level, me by means of XXHighEnd and now the Phasure NOS1 DAC, Bert by means of the best loudspeakers of any type - and next make all match as good as we think is possible;
For us both this will be a special occasion, because the development of the Diamonds thus far has been taken place by not listening to the combination whatsoever (actually caused by the Phasure NOS1 not being ready earlier). And, although we could try the match just in these few days left before this first show where both elements will join, we chose to deliberately do not - just for our own excitement. And so, just a couple of hours before the show starts at 20:00 (until 23:00) we will both be there and see how things worked out. 8)

If you want to join our excitement, please come over; it's free. Be warned though that the Diamonds themselves are a prototype, and the session is held already to get your response on possible improvement. Along with it, comes the performance of the Phasure NOS1 which so far is only known from my own (horn) speakers, and for that matter it's just a same sort of trial : how will the DAC with its very high high frequency output perform on a more normal speaker. In other words, you are not promised to perceive the best sound ever, because we just don't know ourselves. We live by challenges though, and if not at this first meet, it will be at a second. Working on it all the time ...

If you are there anyway, don't forget to say a personal hello.
Peter


http://www.avmn.nl/

Peter,

It's a shame that we/I didn't know earlier, I would have arranged my schedule differently and possibly go there. I wish you the best of luck!

Greets,
Marcin

That's a nice idear!! Will be there  :)

Me too!

I wished I could be there too.
But I cannot.
Which is a variation on "wish you were here" (but you are not).
Cheers and have fun guys!
Eric

Sounds very exciting. Hope expectations are exceeded!

Hi Peter/Bert,

All the very best. Hope the presentation goes of better than expected.

Arvind

Well ... this was not 100% what we expected from it. :) Actually it was more close to 0 %. :swoon:

Imagine ... an old dutch farm house (but beautifully renewed all over) and then the part where the cows were standing (the "stable" part which is connected to the linving part of the house, and which in dutch is called the "deel"). I didn't measure it, but on estimation the room was some 15 x 15 meters and ... with a height of 11 meters ? totallay crazy ...

You can demand what you want from the open baffle speaker, but somewhere it stops. In this case though we made a kind of mistake to position the lot maybe nicely in the room, but also under a 2.20m ceiling which was on one of the sides (and where in the old days the hay was stacked upon (kind of an open attic)). So, this part was maybe 4 meters deep and at the end of that part we put the speakers (thus 4 meters from the wall behind) because otherwise the sound would be "shaped" according to this 2.20 m ceiling there, and stack up.

Whatever we did, no way any decent sound could come from it all. The bass was colored as hell and it was one big pile of fuzzyness. A mess. Oh, did I mention the tiles on the floor ? :)
I don't know what kind of speakers will florish here, but certainly not open baffle. I think (but this is my personal opinion) that such a speaker is very much dependend on the room and place you put it. It needs the room hence walls more than anything else, but no walls were to be seen in miles. Haha.

Of course, in addition there's some SPL to create. I must say, this by itself was not the problem, but in the end was because I think too much was demanded from the Lowther all range unit used, and because of that it started to shout at certain frequencies. This is not something very obvious just because of the size of the room, and all doesn't sound loud at all. I mean, it was loud enough I think, but in the mean time the amplifier played at levels which would blow the windows back home, and then with totally undampened drivers (that's open baffle) it stops somewhere of course.

A bit in between the lines, it was VERY nice to see a face with forum names for quite some more than anounced in this topic. And I must say, that created a "familiarity" which you guys hopefully recognized the same as I did ... "we know more".

Well, you (after the break) have seen me struggling with explanations about what people perceived from it all, which actually was made up on the spot. It may be an explanation (the DAC has high level high frequency output blahblah), but afterwards I don't think that will be the case / cause at all, and it will be merely what I just said above : sheer impossible to use such a speaker in a room nobody will ever use, or should use in the first place. And for those who were there : imagine that this was all driven by 27W amps (4x) and I would even praise that poor speaker doing her best so much.

To put things in perspective, sure not everybody was negative. In fact, maybe nobody really was, but there were (too) negative aspects to judge it "all over good". So, in the end I was asked "but you sure heard some good things too ?!" My answer : Sorry, none.

It is difficult of course. This audio club has the availability of a place where 60 people can nicely sit on chairs (which indeed was so yesterday), but if you "need" such a large place to begin with, in heaven's sake, don't have the ceiling so heigh is well.

Ah, the complaint most heard was : the sound comes from so heigh (which really was the case ... 6 meters or so). Yea, well ...


If someone else who was there likes to jump in, or is able to explain better, just go ahead. I promised "air", and you got nothing (maybe that "live" track showed a bit what I promised). I also kind of promised "not the best sound at all", but this I didn't expect myself.

Peter

I forgot something which I think is important, just in general :

Near the end I played a native 24/352800 track, and I think most agreed this made all siginificantly better. This though seems to support my blahblah after the break that more squarish material is just let through by the DAC (where others flatten it). Why ? because 44100 material just *will* be more squarish, no matter it is upsampled as good as possible. But this indicates (I think) that when a driver goes to 15KHz while clearly above that sufficient sound is there which mechanically must be dampened by the driver itself (which was the case here) things go additionally wrong. So, IMHO the full rangers must be low pass filtered (but which will make them even less extended for the spit out frequency range), and which is a typicle example of what I kind of said earlier in this topic : this was a first match, and only now the speaker builder (Bert) knows what to do to make it really work.

What remains is that you shoulddn't try to use a 12 cm Lowther in an open baffle in such an endless space. Do that afterall, and the low pass filtering will be needed for sure. So I guess there are more reasons than one simple one, and when one is arranged for, the other is no problem.

Yes, you are right on most things as usual, Peter.

-OB are room-dependent and need a medium-sized livingroom. The biggest I have seen do well in about 35sqm
-All FR dynamic drivers need to be lowpassed (either with cap or electronically)
-Lowters shout, cant make myself to like them.

Well I was happy to be there, meeting Peter, Gerard and Josef and also see the NOS1 is really working.
The sound was disappointing like a lot of the critical public pointed out so well.
For me the most irritating was the bass, it was not deep but a little one noted boomy.
I think you can use up to a 1000 watts to make OB-woofers deliver their goods, not 27.
The midss sounded OK, highs were not State of the Art at all. But put an extra good tweeter and you destroy the concept of a point source, which imo was already destoyed by the 4 feet high baffle, that made the sound come from above, which was good if you sat at the back like me. ;)
And why no decent support under the speakers, they were wiggling when you touched them...
A few small blocks of 'puimsteen' under the speakers can do wonders here.

So much about the speakers, what about the NOS1?
Like you said the 384 sounded amazingly much better, it was more like wanting to listen more and more.
Even the public asked for more of this type of music, so they recognised this too.
The next song was 192 and that was a step back.

So it looks to me we need more 384 music plus the NOS1!

Thanks Peter for the demonstration, maybe you can do some more demonstrations but then in a more controlled setup?

Hi all,

Thanks to the hospitality of the AVMN, making this experience happen.
You are quite right, Gerard A. (A pity I, beeing there too, missed you.)
The whole setup did not do much right to Peters baby. Everything that about went wrong was said already. What was obvious is the beauty of the NOS1. Convincingly exposed during a beautiful classical DSD recording. What a potential this beast has!
As a whole it was a very nice meeting, but I look forward to a way to sniff on the NOS1 in a more livingroomlike envirement with outdeveloped good quality transducers.
For the right honor to NOS1!

Ed


...and a few pictures of the happening....

Hi Gerard, thanks !

But allow me to disagree on some things a bit (only a bit :)). I mean, no sound comes from "above" when the ceiling is at a normal height. And when the sound comes from more higher than the ceiling, you really have a problem. But here the ceiling just *was* that crazy high, and no speaker which nicely plays outside its own boundaries can help that.
I think it is very normal (or happens rather often) that the sound plays some 1m or a bit less from the ceiling. Of course this is about reflections (too). I don't like that at all, and with horns like I have you can do something about that very well (point them more down etc.).
These speakers too play around 1m from the ceiling (I know !), so we were lucky that it played at some 4m high only. Haha.


This is a bit too fast on the trigger maybe, but clearly my fault by assuming people (here) know how the line filter is applied, where one amp gains for the other. I use the same amps for the 15" woofers I use, and I don't think you want to be here when I play LOUD. Also, this is not about 1000Watts to drive speakers well, and merely is about control. And as you will know, most of the control (I don't know it in %) has gone when there's no pressure chamber behind the driver. That's open baffle.
In any case, the bass was not good at all, but I assure you this was because of the most poor acoustics; a. because I know the speaker and it is the other way around (the most good you have probably ever heard) and b. because you are not going to tell me that the room was any good afterall. But if so, let me know, and why. Haha. So ... suggesting that this all would be solved by some different supports is unfair to the speaker itself I think.
Btw, I agreed with Bert in advance not to talk about that room at all just because it's a kind of weak thing and it would attack the hospitality of the club there, but might some members read this - afterwards we talked about that afterall, and if I were them I'd seek another location (and certainly NOT for the great hospitality of the owners !!).

But I say it again, it was us choosing to setup the speakers were they were, and that was mistake #1. This is not what the club suggested ...

Peter

Nice to meet you all guys there! I agree it just wasn't working but these things happen - hopefully next time it will be better.

For those not present, maybe it's interesting to know: I saw an USB input on DAC but after talking to Peter it turned out it was NOT for audio! Apparently only PCI Express is supported as input so if you don't have it (e.g. my laptop doesn't) you're out of luck.
Also notice that you will absolutely need PCIExpress as there are also no SPDIF/Toslink etc connectors - The 'PC D/A Converter' on the box really does mean you'll need a PC!

Almost correct ... :)

For the laptop you need a PC Express Card slot (and nothing like PCIExpress !!).

This is a bit confusing to me: Does it mean one would need an Express Card sound card? (e.g. like Indigo? http://www.echoaudio.com/Products/ExpressCard/IndigoIOx/index.php)

And for PC is a special PCI card required or is that supplied with DAC?

Really? But was this a comparison of same recording at different resolution (384 vs. 192)?

Otherwise it's a comparison between apples and oranges...
-I guess the 384 is from 2L (Norwegian purist record company with SOTA equipment) and the 192 was "something else".

----------

I have Ray Brown/Soular Enery in 24/192. It's an analouge recording from 1987, sounding "very good". I ripped it from a DVD-A.
But Diana Krall/The Girl In The Other Room, from 2004 sounds in many ways much better in 24/96 (Ripped from the DVD side of a DualDisc).
What does it say about the medium (96 vs 192)? Nothing!
-It only tells me that the latter title has a better recording and mixing.

Pls correct me if I am wrong.

 :P

Hey Josef,

All what you need comes along with the DAC. No soundcard or anything needed. But :
PC needs a PCIe x1 slot (this is that very small slot).
Notebook needs a PC Express Card slot (or adapter to that).

Peter

Ed, before I forget, thanks for posting those nice pictures. Very nice to meet you and your friend, and now I at last can differentiate you from your brother over in the US. About that, I'm always the most confused, you talking english sometimes, Frank talking dutch where he can. But now I'll know forever who is who.
This confusement started right away when you both signed up for XXHighEnd, because indeed you both did that on about the same day. What I never knew though, is that you both did that without knowing it from eachother (as you told me).
Twins ? haha

Peter

And GerardA ... similarly the same counts here too, just because of two Gerard's being here, while both you and our other Gerard were there. Very nice talking to you, and I must say, time was too short or didn't permit extensive talking.

What I learned from it (but also hoped in advance) is that such a "being together" is a kind of priceless. I mean, at talking to eachother, helping eachother, creating something together for already quite some years now, it is so nice to see some faces behind this and talk to eachother in person. And never forget, you are indeed helping me and everyone, me coincidentally doing the coding here and there.

I think we should arrange for some more of this, and then indeed in a well prepared fashion. It can be just about listening to music, but merely a showoff of how things really can be. Just for a reference and what can be achieved. Bert and I talked about this a while back already (that we both will arrange for this), and this "session" came in between as something which looked like an opportunity. Well ... haha;

I'm sure that many of you ever visited Bert's place and left there with a WOW, while quite as many ending up with a pair of his speakers. I can assure you once more, this hasn't changed, but the conditions must be there to do it. For those who vistited my place (not so many) the same WOW was there. Different speakers but also from Bert, this time combined with some DAC from my hand.
You will see both types of combination in the future, and although the last this post is meant for is to be commercial, it will show you how far we are with audio, and that it is something different from what you know. That *is* a promise.

Of course there is the problem "where to do it", and while Bert's place is too small and I theoretically have the space to house some 10 or a few more visitors at a time, I'd still have to arrange for a comfortable listening place for that many. The options are sufficiently enough there though, and maybe always better than dragging the lot to some hotel room where it *still* all may not workout.
For those who visited me ... there was my living/listening room which will not be comfortable enough for 10 or more people (although they will easily fit there), but there's some 300m2 space in the basement (generally 3 areas of 14 x 6 meters) and there's also an upstairs space of again 14 x 6. So, maybe we go as far as decorating one of these spaces for audio and just as a showcase for how far we are and have some nice meets in the mean time. We'll see.

Lastly, and this may be a kind of commercial talk indeed ... supposed such a set brings you this WOW and you are unsure whether you can create it the same in your home, it always has been my idea to kind of guarantee it will workout (if the room allows for it to begin with, which in normal cases always is so, of course). I mean, the whole lot you will be listening to is from our own hands from start to finish. This is software, D/A converter, amplifiers, speakers (the latter varying from horns via normal to open baffle). So, this will be quite a unique "guarantee" of which you can be 100% sure all matches and should be able to sound the same at your home. It then has become unimportant whether you actually like tubes, because when you say WOW to this, well, who cares.

By the time this really happens I better quit one of my of my other jobs ... :)
Peter

@ pedal, you are right, I would say this too if I had not been there.
But I'm a bit hesitant to say too much about it, for me the 386 reminds me of the best I ever heard from analogue and then with better definition, less distortion etc.
It sounded 'natural'. Then the problem is we still are stuck with 44. So what to say about that?
For fun I've been listening to FM-radio all day today and that now sounds like the AM sounded long time ago.
But it was possible to listen all day. But it is so clear how much worse it is then what we're talking about here.
I hope that after getting used to 386 it is still possible and enjoyable to listen to 44.
Maybe you think this is a bit over the top but this is always a consequence of improvement.
A lot of people are happy with a decent hifi but if you're used to something better you have a problem when you have to go back..

@Peter, this sounds very interesting! I hope you can make it happen. Maybe it will be difficult to maintain but a few sessions could be a good try.
And I could not hear if your DAC is the best in Amersfoort, but if it is, I'm sure there will be a lot of interest from all over the world to come and listen!

BTW, if those woofers are very sensitive , like more then 95 dB, I guess 27 Watt is enough.
But if not then it's like for the control you need a low output impedance, so low impedance Power supply with a lot of current.
Then for a constant voltage you get more amperes, so more watts.
Two woofers in parallel (series is not good!) then the impedance is even lower, together with impedance dips and lower dynamic impedance the
27 Watts at 8 ohm, have to be 54 at 4 ohm, 108 at 2 and 216 at 1 ohm. But maybe those Beyma's have a high impedance, I did not check that.
I never tried to check if it's through, but this is what I remember from theory.

GerardA

BTW I always wondered what job you can do next to XX because it must take up most of your time!