XXHighEnd

hey Peter,

I've just plonked 0.9z-3 onto my video server (Vista 32), which doesn't get used for music much now, and decided to cleanup the galleries and replenish the small sampling of music albums I have on it. When it came to creating the galleries I noticed boxset albums and albums with more than one CD, appeared to all be listed under the main gallery folder, rather than under their respective unique artist name folders.

I then purged everything from the galleries amd removed the x-ref files from within the data folders and tried again using 0.9zb, which was the latest version still on that server, and everything behaved as I expected, with the individual boxset cd's appearing under the appropriate folder. In other words, it mirrored the file structure of the actual data itself, which is how it's been behaving since gallery creation was introduced.

Is this new way of creating the gallery folder structures under 0.9z-3 as you intended, or is it a bug? If it isn't a bug, what happens when two or more boxsets or multiple CD albums get processed that have the same name , eg CD1 or CD2 etc. Wouldn't the entries get all mixed up in the gallery folder? It will be very difficult to manually cull gallery entries, which is how I do it now, rather than using the inbuilt purge function from XXHE itself.

If the above is not clear I can produce some screen snapshots for you tomorrow.

Thanks,

Russ

I think it is clear Russ, but I don't recognize a thing of it.
About that tomorrow (and I know you're in bed already), can't you produce that screenshot now ? I mean, I really want to get rid of the 0.9z-3 bugs, and this could be one of them ?

Sorry to bug you a bit ...
Peter

Here's my take of it :

This is taken from a random original structure (G:\WAV\PS\ see first pic), and created in a new root Russ Main Gallery (second pic).

At the bottom you see a "box" example.
The structure is mixed (like with Artist - Album and with Artist\Album) and I don't see it go wrong anywhere. I'm sure you do though, but what - and how to do it ?

Peter

Small aditional teaser :

One of those bugs -of course- is the not working through of Mass Rename in Galleries ... I'm ready for upload. :teasing:
But not if things work wrongly in the basis.

Peter


PS: Can't it be so that -at doing this- your path in the textbox (very bottom) wasn't consistent with the Library contents ? Like in my first picture above, all texts under the coverart should start with the Artist name to begin with ?
(namely, this can be mangled and then I think things will workout wrongly when drawing a Gallery from teh Library contents)

I'm used to walking with the vampires of late, so another late night isn't a problem.

I have attached 3 screen images.

The first ( galleries_before_09z-3.jpg ) show how the folder structure looks in both galleries and actual data using 09.zb. Data on right of screen

galleries_after_09z-3.jpg shows XXHE's galleries as they appear after 09z-3 has created things using the same actual data. Notice the start of the galleries now contains a mishmash of several boxset CD's listed together. This scenario is repeated further down the list.

galleries_after_09z-3(2).jpg shows multiple folder views of the gallery highlighting where CD's appear to have been placed one level up from where they should have been.

THAT I think is the underlaying issue. Where multi-volume albums exist, those CD's are being listed one level up in the heirachy.

re. the note you made about the bulk rename function. Yes, I have noticed it gets itself a little confused where multi discs sets show up. I'm working around that quirk manually, but if you have a fix, then great :)

Time to hang the garlic on the front door and load the silver bullets now  :sleeping: :sleeping: :sleeping:   

Russ

Ok, those in bed ought to sleep. No problem ... :)

I think I found what the problem is ... wrong structure on your side. Look :

Suppose there's no BOX set in order ... how would you call the album ? not something like Klaus Schulze Moog Stuff. It will be Klaus Schulze - Moog Stuff. But now you have this BOX set. This encourages for something like

Klaus Schulze\Moog Stuff CD1
Klaus Schulze\Moog Stuff CD2

right ?
Wrong !
Wrong because there's no Artist and Album here. There's only a multi volume album and what will happen is that the first higher folder (Russ Main Gallery) will become part of the album, and thus will be the "Artist". So, the correct way to do this will be

Klaus Schulze - Moog Stuff\CD1
Klaus Schulze - Moog Stuff\CD2

All is caused by the (rather special) recognition of a Multi Volume album (necessary to store the Coverart not redundantly at the album level (which would be Klaus Schulze - Moog Stuff). And yes, this has been changed (for the better) in 0.9z-3.

However, I just discovered (so thank you !) that it really goes wrong at creating Galleries when you indeed have this naming wrong. Thus anyway I have to find a solution for it (dunno how yet). So, in my current case what happens, is that within Russ Main Gallery another Russ Main Gallery is created just because it is found (too high up) as the Artist for each case the Artist should be in the folder name separated with a dash from the Album Name but isn't (have it in a separate folder with the Album under it is also correct).

So, something to do ...
Thanks and good night now,
Peter

Wow, you must have created that faster than I will understand. Now, let's find a wiiiiide screen first. Haha.

By the time you wake up I hope to have found what you mean and what to do about it. But the tilde (~) already seems a problem to me.

Thank you VERY much.
Peter

I need to have a think about your last post(s) after my brain has woken, as I'm not fully understanding what you are suggesting with the folder structure.

I have been using what I believe is a logical and orderly approach for years (see below) and hasn't caused problems until now. I don't necessarily want to introduce hyphens into the folder name to group both the artist and album name together, as that will in essence result in a huge list to scroll down when looking for a particular disc.

I have been using :

Artist Name \ Album name \ tracks

or

Artist Name \ Album name \ CD1 \ tracks
Artist Name \ Album name \ CD2 \ tracks

or

Artist Name \ Album name \ CD1 - meaningful description \ tracks
Artist Name \ Album name \ CD2 - meaningful description \ tracks

etc
etc

I have been using the tilde symbol for a while now to break up the album name where is it quite lengthy. I tend to use it quite frequently with classical albums where the artist or conductor plays pieces from several composers. It's just another handy character to use in addition to the normal (-) or (_)

I'm really kicking the cat out now :)

RGB

(not responding to your latest post from just before !)

Haha, staring at this for 20 minutes now, but it is undoable (and the 1920 TV is occupied :) :)).

But to be honest ... I see few "rules" in your naming scheme. So that will be problematic ...

Anyway, I will solve the problem I described myself, and then with 0.9z-3a you can have a retry. But don't have high hopes.

Keep in mind rule #1 :
The Artist must be able to differentiate from the Album Name already without it being Multi Volume;
When you have a Multi Volume album, the rightmost part (assumed the separate volumes are in separate folders) is not allowed to (suddenly) contain the Album Name or something.

Also please notice that this "rule" just comes from logic, and it's an unspoken rule. On that matter it has always been there, BUT XX dealt with it wrongly before, albums being called "CD1" (etc.), or lacking the Artist in the Galleries. Now this rule is applied correctly, BUT works out wrongly in another way : when no Artist can be differentiated from the Album name (hence it's just not in the data), a too high level is taken. This is not my fault, but the fault of the naming. Still I can try to cover for it, but not all is possible. And, if those damn multi volumes didn't exist, the whole problem just can't be there.

I'll try.
Peter

Im brief, before your eyes are closed :


At least this one is not correct.

a. it is not a multi colume (how to know that in this case) thus
b. The Artist will be CD1 (CD2).

One small question because your last post confuded me a little :
Are you using the tilde for separation between Artist and Album or not ? Your pictures seem to show that, but the description in your last post ...
(btw, no problem to use the tilde as the separator, which now does NOT happen ... so I can only guess what all doesn't work at your side).

A lengthy period of delta wave activity followed by a nice hot cuppa tea, and I think I now see where the issue lays. It is the use of hyphens in the names that is confusing XXHE now. Or perhaps more succintly, that XXHE has now heard that "unspoken word" and is acting upon it's decree .. haha.

Looking through the galleries created under 0.9z-3, it appears that things go wrong when the sequence " - " is used in either the album name, or used as part of the description for a multi volume set. It is now being interpreted as a separator to distinguish Artist component from Album component. This also appears to be the case where, in multi volume sets, the characters "CD" are followed by an " - " and then a description.

If this is the case , then that "unspoken rule" should be yelled out to the masses.

If you can confirm this to be the case, then we can all take this into account when naming folders.

re. usage of the tilde character in my case, I dont use it as a separator intentionally (as I now understand XXHE uses it), but rather as a way of breaking up the name into more easily read parts ( when appropriate ).

Again, if the tilde , when used in the form " ~ " rather than having NO spaces either side is also interpreted as a separator, we need to take that into account.

Would I be right in thinking the ever used "_" can be used with impunity? for example, rather that using something like:


\album name\CD1 - greatest hits in the 60's
\album name\CD2 - greatest hits in the 70's
\album name\CD3 - greatest hits in the 80's

if one used   

\album name\CD1_greatest hits in the 60's
\album name\CD2_greatest hits in the 70's
\album name\CD3_greatest hits in the 80's

it should be OK ?

I have a feeling that my much used Flash Renamer program is in for a big workout soon !

Cheers,

Russ

Haha Russ, no, it is all different, as your own situation is different from what you tell.

First of all, it is the hyphen with spaces ( - ) which is used at this moment. Nothing else. But, it always has been and it depends on the functionality used whether you have noticed it less or more.

Next, you use that hyphen wherever you think it looks nice. No, wrong - where it should be a separator. Ehh, sort of. But the fun is, it *is* a separator and everybody uses it, including you. Now  it's only a matter of using it appropriately, and this is is all related to the remainder of a path.

A first situation where the hyphen is no separator is at the "numbering" of a box set. So, 01 - Louis Armstrong is ok of course, but not for separation.
In between the lines : I know I know : it is *me* talking about separators (you just use a hyphen :)) but the problem is that the other half of the world does use it as a separator like in

Artist Name - Album Name\CD1\tracks

and you quite well know that, because your albums originate from somewhere, and there they do it too (it's just an unspoken standard).

In jet another part of the world this is turned into

Artist Name\Album Name\CD1\tracks

but which doesn't mean that now suddenly we can go something like

Artist Name\Album Name\CD1 - First CD of box\tracks

or let me put this differently :

WWWW\RRRRR\DDDDDD\QQQQQ\YYYYYYY - BBBBBBB\tracks

and ask you the name of the album. But

WWWW\RRRRR\DDDDDD\QQQQQ\YYYYYY ~ BBBBBB CD1\tracks

now you should be able to and

WWWW\RRRRR\DDDDDD - QQQQQ\YYYYYY ~ BBBBBB CD1\tracks

now you should too (I don't use the tilde).

Sadly this still doesn't work because this won't be recognized as a Multi Volume album because that happens only when that part is of equal length (and with names in the box per CD that won't work). So what happens ? YYYYYY ~ BBBBBB CD1 will be the name of the album and DDDDDD - QQQQQ or QQQQQ will be the name of the "Artist" ... which is Jazz in Paris. Ain't that great.

Well, I'll quit here, leaving you in confusement. The easiest way to test this is using "Open to Artist" in Embedded Explorer, starting at e.g. Jazz and assuming no further differentiation under that (which is allowed btw). Now you will see all what looks strange and you will be able to reason out how it happens (use Explore to go to the original). But remember, I do use the hyphen with spaces.

Peter

Thanks again for your support on these issues. I think I've got my head around how the structure should be now. As I've been building up my library over the years I've changed my naming conventions along the way and it's now come back to bite me, but I'll get it sorted. I primarily need to keep in the back of my mind that " - " can have repercussions if used indiscriminately.

The "Expand to Music folders" and "Expand to Artist folders" in the embedded explorer on the left are something I had forgotten about. The latter should be particularly useful in identifying rogue albums.

Cheers,

Russ

Byy thee waayyy ...

I did not try to imply "case closed", but just had to stop typing because of "more to do";

The actual point is, I can not (and don't want to) put out rules for this, and thus I try to "behave" so all can survive. But also : this is why I didn't put out those rules. So what I *do* do, is trying to depend on perceived logic and indeed the useage of that hyphen (because people intuitively use it for separation). Of course this should not mean that things go really wrong (as it does in 0.9z-3) (while before things did not go wrong at all).

There's actually only one thing which is good to know : a Multi Volume album is recognized as such by means of the rightmost part of the path

a. ending with a numeric;
b. having more of that at the same level;
c. with equal length.

The usefulness of the knowledge of the MV album is the ability to store the common denominator Coverart at the Album level (instead of doing that redundantly at the "volume" level), plus that it implies NOT being the album level (compare the "CD1" titles on the Wallpaper from before). So, when the album level is not there, it should be higherup.

The above is to be compared with the box set stuff, which usually has a general name at the top level (80's hits) which now is seen as the artist (which is good, because otherwise that wouldn't be shown as "artist") while the contents of such a box usually is NOT CD1, CD2 etc, but merely Rock, Dance, Late night, whatever. Would you -in such a case- denote this as CD1, CD2, CD3 etc., the 80's hits would be the Album Name (because now it's recognized as MV) and the Artist would be ... you say it, because your first higher folder will denote *that* ... wrongly (because it would be Collections maybe). Or not, because we tend to call that Various Artists ... haha

Now, I'm sure one could graduate on this stuff somewhere, but if you'd follow what XX makes of this all at Open to Artist and you'd examine the anomalies (like the Artist showing as "Jazz" or as "1973 - Made in Japan" (which is just an Album Name) you will "learn" automatically that it is "you" who did things wrongly, and you could only survive so far because you know by heart that Made in Japan is an Album Title, and the Artist is Deep Purple.

If you fully think that XX shows things wrongly to these matters, than probably it is a bug and you'd have to mention it (why ? well, because I did NOT graduate on this).

Before I forget ... The Mass Rename functionality is where this "strictness" had to start, because otherwise it can't do what it does (which you can only see with the proper structuring as implied :yes:). But, until yesterday I though to leave the Multi Volume part out of the "mask" because I didn't see the necessity. This by itself already isn't quite true, because I have dozens of naming schemes for that only in my files, and it would be better to have one only (like CD01, CD02 *or* Vol01, Vol02) hence not mixed versions. However, looking at your "task" to get this right, it is now obvious that more should be done here, because you'd want the hyphen to be removed. Or better : put in the character instead of it (could be a dot). No, *everybody* would want the hyphen to be removed if in there, because it will let things go wrong otherwise. Now see my difficulty, because what you call multi volume, isn't recognized as such in the first place (and remember, it *is* not for such a box version).
So I better get that graduation first.

Peter

Thanks Peter .. I really do appreciate the time you put into your explanations, and my head still spins at trying to imagine the complexity of the coding that must go into trying to accommodate all these different scenarios. Perhaps that's why I decided to become a mainframe computer Operator rather than a Programmer all those years ago .. hehe

Time for some actual music for the rest of the evening, and leave the galleries till tomorrow and later.

Cheers again :)

Russ

Haha, but that's what I did as my first job. Looong ago.

morning Peter,

I've been spending some time cleaning up my naming schemes and seem to have it understood how the use of " - " delimits the components now, but it is still those boxsets that are causing head scratching as to how to make things meaningful and provide appropriate descriptions rather than simple call them CD01, CD02 etc.

May I suggest that you consider a mask that, if it sees a folder starting with "CD" followed by 1, 2 or even perhaps 3 numerals, that it is solely treated as a multi-volume set, and is thus associated with the next higher folder name as being the actual Album Name. I think this should take care of MV "issues" to a large extent.

Using "CD" as a unique prefix to say "hey , I'm part of a multi volume set and belong in the folder above without changing my folder name or interpret me in any other form", should allow using a meaningful description to follow the "CD".

As it stands at the moment, whenever anything follows the "CDxx", it gets treated as a unique album name and the folder above it then becomes treated as an artist. As you are well aware.

I've checked through all my artists and albums names and I don't have anything in those categories starting with a "CD" so I think it should be safe.

Food for thought perhaps, or unobtainable from a coding perspective ?

Cheers,

Russ





 

G'day there Russ,

Good idea. Also, I was just up to that part, having worked on this Gallery thing ever since 0.9z-3 (actually only about restoring out of order stuff -> the ReDo under Add to Gallery).

Resumer :

Various\The Surf Box\CD1
Various\The Surf Box\CD2

Artist is Various -> good.

John Miles\The Miles Big Box\CD01 - 1961-1963
John Miles\The Miles Big Box\CD02 - 1964-1964

Artist is John Miles -> Good.

Oscar Peterson\His Box\1950 - 1955 - The better years
Oscar Peterson\His Box\1956 - 1960 - The later years

Arist is His Box -> wrong.

Peter

Yep ... that is how I foresee the above being interpreted at the moment.

In the above example, by amending the lowest folder to read:

Oscar Peterson\His Box\CD01 - 1950 - 1955 - The better years
Oscar Peterson\His Box\CD02 - 1956 - 1960 - The later years

and applying my suggestion from previous post, we will hopefully then see:

Album -> His Box
Artist -> Oscar Peterson

and the discreet discs identified as:

CD01 - 1950 - 1955 - The better years
CD02 - 1956 - 1960 - The later years

appearing under a folder called His Box.

How that's achieved from a coding perspective is best left up to his maestro :)

Cheers,

Russ