XXHighEnd

I calculate that I have currently about 1000 CDs to render to hard drive. That works out at 500GB of storage, which also needs to be backed up. This equals about 1TB of storage.

Allowing for future music additions (and some deletions) the need could well grow to 1.5TB. That is pretty serious storage capacity. :veryhappy:

While the Dell engineer was here this morning I took the oportunity to ask his recommendation. He was singing the virtues of Buffalo hard drives - reliable, quiet, well built, with easy operating software and automatic back up.

This model caught my eye:
http://www.broadbandbuyer.co.uk/Shop/Reviews.asp?ProductID=3965

Any other suggestions out there? :dntknw:
 

No real suggestions as off yet from my side (I'm struggling a bit with it  myself), but that the means of storage should provide kind of inifinit storage. My opionion in your case : it is not. If yo start off with 500GB and the max is 750 it's not a real growth path IMHO. Also think of getting CDs from libaries, and it just being legal to copy those for listening (well, here in Holland it is).

Be careful not to use RAID as an implicit backup means; you can accidently delete something, and it will be deleted instantly from your RAID mirrored (etc.) "backups". IOW, you should make the backup explicitly, and based upon changes opposed to the previous backup (Acronis is good software for that).

The means of setting it up physically is partly dependent on your playback PC (a laptop incurs for different solutions than a tower like PC), whether you have a USB DAC (then the disk storage should not be USB connected) (Firewire likewise I think and that opposed to a possible slow network-connected storage box, and the ultimately fast DATAII connected box.

These things are very difficult it you really want to do it right, and the best (SATAII) is the most difficult to connect (if not impossible for a laptop).

All is related to eachother, when you'd see that you really don't need a laptop for playback, as long as you have a laptop that RDC/RDP connects to the whatever PC it is playing the music (the laptop being miles away from your equipment (where the playback PC is near), that laptop being your "control center" only, and the distance not being able to influence playback quality).

:oops:

Additionally, of utmost importance is the means of expandability it you're facing  "disk full" afterall. When you're not careful, it may imply a new set of disks besides the ones you currently have, copying over a slow connection which takes days (!), ending up with a bunch of old disks for spare (hence, useless).

Note that if the expandability is arranged for properly, right at this moment you could get something which *will* reach limits within a reasonable time, but from all follows that it won't harm you. Obviously, together with this comes that disks are getting larger and cheaper, where "larger" is the most important (because of the limit to diskNUMBERS in their chosen cabinets and all).

Hi Chris

I also play from a LT and have choosen two of these fellows:

http://www.freecom.com/ecproduct_detail.asp?ID=3098&CatID=&sCatID=

As far as I know they come up to max 1 T-byte only.

But they are quality built and completely noiseless. Price were around 500 EURO/each.

Now soon enough I have to think about what to do when the needs of more come. Huhaa.

But there is something I really do here: I erase all records I don't like to listen to. That free's 50% of the HDD in my case. Quality over quantity.  ;)

You seem to have spotted good devices there.

Good luck with the ripping....


Gerner

Hi there.

My 2 cents:

Harddisks are a hot issue, especially by looking at its reliability!

Reliability MTBF (mean time between failure) is IMO a key parameter to look at.
If it takes you 10 seconds or 12 seconds to load a full CD into RAM is for
our purposes IMO not relevant. 

I'd strongly recommend professional grade HD e.g.

Western Digital WD RE2 WD5000YS  7200/500GB

it comes with 1.200.000h  MTBF.

If you don't find them in an external enclosure, buy one yourself. Assembling shouldn't be an issue.
Make sure that the enclosure comes also with a gigabit ethernet interface, so that you can use it as a network drive later on.

Cheers
\Klaus

Since I'm using a laptop I bought 5 (well 6 now) of these 320 GB external HDs.  They're connected via firewire so that my usb is only used by the Stello 100 USB-DAC I use.
E5 Series Drives with firewire. (They are daisy chained with firewire)
http://www.acomdata.com/hdp/fs.html

I have an equal number of backup 320 gig drives that are pulled out of another computer and stored (i use a cartridge type backup called ezswap2; when i rip I send one copy to the Acomdata main Hds, shut it off, and then send another copy to ezswap2 sata type backup.  I then pull the backup drive out and store in the closet.... doesn't take much time)

For others : Keep in mind the importance of this !
It is just not allowed to use USB for your DAC on one hand, and use USB for retrieving the track data on the other. Both means of USB processing are different and conflict !

On the other hand, the problem would be relatively minor at using XXHighEnd, because of the asynchroneous reading of the track data. However, it still might bother at the end of tracks (when a next track will be read).

Just trying to get my head around this storage and retrieval lark

Initially lets forget the back up drives, and concentrate on USB2 drives

So, if I get one very large (say 1TB) device presumably this will have a title such as drive f and can be readily searched, providing I have my albums well indexed.

If I was to buy say 4 x250GB drives, I guess I would then need a hub to connect them all. Are they then called say drives f, g, h, and i, and therefore more of a hunt is required to find specific albums?

Cheers Chris

If they are not in one box (hence one USB connection), it's my guess that you can't "span" them into one volume. But maybe others know better ?
And indeed, when you'd end up with 4 drives, that would be very inconvenient.

Btw, boxes for two drives exist for sure, and 2x 500GB would be a good price/value.
2x 1TB (which also exists since 6 weeks or wo) would be more "infinite" though ...

OK, thats the way I was thinking :good:

Hello
You can, of coarse rename a hard disk. Instead of Local Drive you could call it A-I & the other one to J-Z for example. At least then you will always pick the right drive first (assuming that you know what you want to hear!)

Gappy Jack(or is this too subtle)

Also
For all you drag & droppers out there. Having renamed the drive, create a desktop shortcut to it. Go to my computer, hover over the drive icon, hold down the RIGHT mouse button, drag to the desktop, release and select "create shortcut here" with the left button. One click & you're in amongst you're albums & ready to rock & roll!
Jack

Hi Gerner.
Those Freecom DataTanks look pretty attractive and would not look out of place alongside the Hi-Fi. By comparison the Buffalo kit looks a bit utilitarian (albeit a bit cheaper).
One reviewer of the DataTank said it was not ready for Vista yet, but this may well have been an old review.
Are you running yours with Vista?

PS
Dont forget to put your system on your profile signature ;)

Hi Chris,

Allow me to answer on behalf of Gerner (who is enjoying holidays) : Yes. He has connected them to Vista.
It is just USB, so I can't guess why or how it can't be Vista ready ...

Remember, in one of these, nowadays, you can get 2TB of storage space, as long as the supplier mounts those disks. 1TB (2x 500GB) should be the least that's possible.

Before you decide, please don't forget that USB is a relatively sloooooww connection. A backup of 1TB would really take a day !
For a laptop the best hussle free option would be Firewire800 I think. Note that Firewire is really like a network (similar to ethernet) and you can connect and expand disks as you want. BUT : I really don't know what happens if your sound is Firewire connected too (like you have). O dear ...

Yes, FireWire800 is fast but, Vista does not support that. XP does.... so when I do my backup I switch back to XP (then it is twice as fast as USB or FireWire400...

Bert

Actually, something like this (http://www.pimspcshop.nl/page.htm?detail.asp?id=5956&produkt=AC+Ryan+ESATA+2%2Dport+ExpressCard34%2C+ACR%2DSA50564&) is the best option. This is "eSata" (external SATA), and should have the same speed as internal SATAII disks (which you most probably won't even have in your notebook).
A few remarks though :

1. If applicable, you must have two PC card slots in the laptop, when you need the other for Firewire (like you, Chris).
2. You must really find out whether the speed of the PC Card is okay, and ask for a guarantee of that.
3. Chance is 99% that a by this means connected disk will not be able to spin down after a (set) time of inactivity. Even the PC hybernating ("sleeping") will not incur for this (not much different with USB/Firewire connected disks btw).
4. Cables are usually 1 meter long, but can be 2 meters with pricey cables.

Then, nowadays, eSata connected disk arrays (or enclosures) exist. Note that these will work with eSata multipliers, which actually will devide the bandwidth. This is no problem because you won't be using two disks at the same time. You may use two logical disks at the same time, but this is provided by the two ports on the PC card both working at full speed if all is okay.

SATAII copies up to 300MB per second and is by far the fastest connection of all. Your 1 TB backup would effectively go in less than 3 hours now (theoretically in less than an hour).
In comparison, roughly, Firewire800 is 80MB/s, Firewire400 40MB/s, USB 2.0 48MB/s, Gigabit Ethernet 100MB/s, normal ethernet 10MB/s.

There is no reason the eSata enabled enclosures are more expensive than others, nor are the SATAII disks you'd want then.

I settled on this to get me started  -  the Freecom Data Tank 1TB
(http://www.freecom.com/objects/00009353.jpg)

This is something of a bargain at present, with some free promotional vouchers I had, and free P&P it came in at £211.

What pursuaded me?
1. Price
2. Probably the simplest and prettiest box around, which will be OK on view with the sound system
3. Small and portable, for regularly, but temporarily moving to my desk top Internet system for loading music, track titles and artwork using EAC.
4. Quiet, and hopefully reliable - my wife has had a smaller Freecom external hard drive for some time.
5. Capability for automatic back up on its two internal drives (RAID)
6. USB or Firewire 800

I would second what Gerner says, that I will probably only store those Albums that I enjoy listening to on the Hi-Fi. Others will stay on CD for the car etc.

So now to finalise the indexing of folders :grin: :grin:

I can add that the blue lights would match the CrazyA perfectly ... (might you get the CrazyA ...)

On further remark : The backup feature you describe as "Raid" will be about automatically duplicating the one disk to the other. This means that if you by accident delete a couple of folders (or all), they are gone on the "backup" as well, instantly ... :yes:

Raid (whatever type) really is not for backup, but for continuous uptime (like with drive failure), which is something different.
So be careful !

I can add that the blue lights would match the CrazyA perfectly ... (might you get the CrazyA ...)

Well, it is in my peripheral vision, but I am so happy with my EAR 861 power amp that I cant believe it would be so much better as to warrant a change.
One virtue I accept is being able to leave it on all day. At the moment having valves tends to make the Hi-Fi just for 'special' listening, and most valves take about 30 minutes to come on song.
So the Crazy A would not be an instant purchase - I would need to hear it to be persuaded. Unfortunately I checked with Bert, and there is not one in the UK yet.  :(

One further remark : The backup feature you describe as "Raid" will be about automatically duplicating the one disk to the other. This means that if you by accident delete a couple of folders (or all), they are gone on the "backup" as well, instantly ... :yes:

Raid (whatever type) really is not for backup, but for continuous uptime (like with drive failure), which is something different.
So be careful !

Yes I did take note of your earlier comments. I do like the automatic way it does back up (saves me a job) but I agree that care is of the essence.  :veryhappy: :veryhappy:

Thanks Peter. Nice to have a stand in when the Holiday calls for attention on completely different matters.

I have no problems with my 0.8TB FreeCom tanks running against Vista.

I have neither any problems backing up through slow USB as I only back-up CD's which are added to the main library along the way. Not so many.

So I have a relative peaceful life re. that.

But I see soon I will run out of gas with my poor 0.8 TB. I make so many folders with different favourit tracks. So many of them are stored twice or more.
That's not the way to do it. Then better to make a shortcut pointing at the track in the main library. (Bert told me).

Another way to keep 0.8TB sufficient is not to store c'r'a'p.

Gerner

That is what the PlayLists are for Gerner ...
:swoon:  :)

I hadn't twigged either till now :blush2: :blush2: :blush2:

And Gerner, when you gonna put your system in your profile signature? :whistle: :whistle:

Yep..I know (big surprice, eih...?)

But those folders I made so many of, I use for "alternative" playback systems. So they have to exsist there somehow.

 :) Gerner

NOW  ;)

Yes!!  Sorry to be a pain, but could you offer the name of the Vista laptop. It would be nice to know which ones are totally glitch free, even at a latency of 48. Also do you use the built in firewire connection?

Yes!!  Sorry to be a pain, but could you offer the name of the Vista laptop. It would be nice to know which ones are totally glitch free, even at a latency of 48. Also do you use the built in firewire connection?

No problemos....

My Vista LT is a Thosiba Tecra A8 no build in FW. http://www.toshibadirect.com/td/b2c/cmod.to?coid=-31400


And my FW card is a Pyro as shown here http://www.cwol.com/firewire-drives/firewire-dvd-recorder-notebook.htm

I don't have the slightest problem with glitches.

Gerner :smile:

Well I need space.  How many HDDs can I connect via firewire? hehe... don't think I've reached that limit yet.  Going to pick up one of these:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136146
I still want to daisy chain a couple other HDDs on there that are firewire 400.  I've read up a bit and I think I'll have no problems mixing/matching firewire 400 & 800 (I know the speed will drop to 400).  Any thoughts out there?

Your only concern would be backup times. Theoretically with a 400 connection 1TB will take (very) roughly 25 hours. With 800 that's 12.5 hehe.

In order to be free of choice, it's best to think of a backup strategy that allows you to make incremental backups. With this, keep in mind that e.g. changing the structure of folders already is an undoable task to follow manually towards the backup (compare a newly ripped CD, which would be doable).

If you can't arrange for this decently, forget about making backups with this speed (even 800). Also note that you won't like to make a backup because you'll think it influences sound.
And then my example was about 1TB only ...

One approach would be maintaining (folder) structure canges in Galeries only, and just never care about the physical structure. Btw, this is what I'm heading for currently, and therefore the Library functions in XX need to speed up 1000 times (working on that right now). Thus, when you are not bothered by physical structure changes and added albums / changed coverart / deleted albums only, IMO keeping track of all manually is doable. Note though, that in order to let this really work, your backup disks have to be online always (rip an album and copy it to the backup right after that).

A good backup strategy is key to cope with these large amounts of data. Don't arrange for that properly, and you'll get stuck with your (amounts of) data.

Sounds good Peter.  Here's how I do my backups though; everything by "hand"/manually.  At the moment, I have all my music on 320GB external HDDs and each one is backed up by 320GB removable sata internal HDD.  I've made it a point to never ever having an external and its backup online at the same time.  When I rip new CDs I send them to a third/different internal drive that is always online... I then copy it to the appropriate external HDD.  After having ripped a few discs/a few days, I then make sure my externals are offline, pop in my removable backup, and move the music/picture/cue files off the third/different internal drive that is always online to the removable backup and then take it offline again.  It so far seems to work.  Theft and fire are about the only thing I worry about.

Well, I went ahead and picked up the 2TB mentioned above here because of price.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/513062-REG/Western_Digital_WDG2T20000N_2_TB_My_Book.html

I wish it had sata too, but oh wellz.  One good thing about it was this listed at WD site:
"User serviceable - Easy access allows you to open the case and replace a drive. No need to send the entire system in for service."
From the looks of the enclosure I'll be able to open it up easy and get to the drives... which I'm betting are two 1TB sata drives anyway.  If I ever do have to do a huge backup (can't imagine why...) maybe I can pop out the drives and hook em up to sata hehe.

As far as XXHe and speed of cue/wav files being read, I think I'm ok there too.  CUE file Question.  When I go through the huge step by step arduous process of opening up explorer and finding my music and cumbersomely dragging my single album wav file kicking and screaming onto XXHE so it can read the cue file and see song titles, (which disappear immediately after pushing play in unattended because SQ is utmost), *does my whole big wav title get read? or, when using cue files, do you then only read (put into memory) individual songs?  OR How is playing/loading a single WAV from "library" read differently (if it is) then playing/loading a WAV/CUE file from explorer?  curiosity kills this cat

Uhhm ... :wacko::wacko::wacko::wacko::wacko:  I'm not sure you wrote it like a storm, I read it as a storm, I drunk too much, or it's because a kind of storm is going on here (there is), but this is the answer :

Cue files currently, per track, are read per the complete album and then the track is subtracted from that. That will improve in a future version (as in reading the part concerned only).
Is that something for an answer ?

Do NOT buy seagate external eSATA units. They are crippled for lower performance.
Buy an enclosure and put your own (seagate also) 3.5" hdd.