XXHighEnd

Started this topic as I would like to pick opinions regarding how much really improves the SQ if all devices participating in music reproduction are connected via some sort of power cleaner or power conditioner or similar? I do not have experience into this, so please share yours...

Can someone confirm that moving from direct wall power to the filtered one brings all the stuff to another level?

Ivo

I think I can : usually you'll loose dynamics, but it depends on the device in question.

Today I am quite convinced it isn't about these things, but about clean power to the DAC only, and this plays a role, well, just inside the DAC. At least that is what I managed/created. I can show you noise from the mains at -100dB with nasty things at -55dB (which latter are special to my house only), but I can also show you unmeasurable noise. Same mains, same house, same wall outlets ... different DAC. The pictures (of measurement) are all in this forum somewhere. (so, this is not about measuring a DAC, but just what comes from the loudspeakers as the total result of (added) noise in your system)

:offtopic:

Btw, this is one of the reasons the NOS1 takes so long; Just day before yesterday I found the way to isolate it from the PC without highering jitter. And I started thinking about this last November ... (ok, I'm sloooooow).
:secret:

Peter

I'm patient  ;)

Ivo, great question, and unfortunately one that I don't think can be answered with a simple definitive answer....like many things in high end audio. 

Perhaps Peter is right and power quality only really matters in the DAC.  My overall experience, after years of experimentation, is that many (not all) audio components do benefit from better incoming power quality IF your room/system is sufficiently resolving.  Ultimately one can only be sure through experimentation.

As Peter noted, trouble is that most power conditioners reduce noise AND suppress dynamics.  So with many of these devices you will at first notice less noise (good), but then quickly you will release your dynamics have been filtered (not good).  This is what I found with just about every unit I tried. 

Then a long time very cynical audiophile friend suggested a try a PurePower 2000.  Reluctantly I agreed and after having it in my system I would not take it out.  The PurePower 2000 is actually a power regenerator with a battery buffer it you will.  Basically it continously charges a battery and then regenerates the power sine wave from the battery - this decouples the outgoing power from the unit from the power mains feeding your house.  Some might say this approach will constrict power.  Not in my system and I have a pair of very high current Class A OTL Tube amplifiers.

There is no question that feeding my DAC from this unit improves sound quality.  But I also prefer my amplifiers fed from the PP2000 as well.  This results in more detail and a more fluid, analog sound.

Again, your results will vary based on many factors including the power quality in your home, the design of your audio components, etc.  Remember that proper grounding is also important.  I would encourage you to experiment if you can, but not to blindly put a power conditioning unit without being able to try one with a right of return.

Understood.

So, how about using regular UPS?

I checked that my DAC takes just 5 W worth of power. I can connect my DAC to UPS and while listening to music, disconnect UPS from wall. In this way I would have clean power from UPS without any peaks form the wall. I think UPS capable of 240W can handle my 5W device for at least one full album?

Ivo

Most UPS units made for PC market use switching technology which itself infects HF noise into the powerline (and all connected equipment, consequently).
Eventually it will work better if you pull out the wallplug every time you listen. Then you will (probably) get true battery voltage.

BTW: I had a true battery supply for my previous DAC, some years ago, and it DID improve the sound quality. It was a DIY construction. Battery cells wore out after a couple of years, though.

OK, sounds good.
I think then if I feed only my DAC with true battery voltage then I can go with some special battery supply rather than bigger UPS device. Have not looked for such devices, can you advise some ready made battery supply unit which can be charged and then used for DAC?

Thanks,
Ivo

This is not so easy, and generally it must work the other way around : have a battery, and design the DAC around it. Why ? because of different voltages needed, actually different PSUs are needed (which output the desired voltages for the various parts) and they take AC for input and not DC (like from you battery).

I don't think it is an option to go that way afterwards, unless you have a 220V (or 110V) battery that generates AC again ...

Peter is right.  Certain DAC's are designed with low voltage power inputs - the Metric Halo ULN-8 and the soon to be released Antelope Zodiac Gold are just a few examples.  These supplies provide their units with wallwarts to provide this 12-20V DC and offer high quality linear power supplies.  One can also buy linear power supplies from companies such as Red Wine Audio.

I chose the PurePower APS because it is suited to those units that don't take low voltage DC inputs.  The PurePower as I said regenerates a clean, unrestricted power sine wave without artifacts from the mains grid from a battery.

Like Peter and earflappin is pointing out: You have to respect the voltage, of course, and differ between AC and DC ;-).

A product like the PurePower2000 can be used with all kinds of equipment, sharing the same AC voltage (220-240V in Europe). It replaces "the wall" AC outlet.
The same goes for typical UPS units ment for computer envirements. (Like I said earlier, computer UPS's are cheaper than PurePower/PPP, but I am not shure if they really provide more pure AC out).

If you wanna build your own battery supply (feeding DC to a DAC, for instance) of course you must know what you are doing in terms of regulations and internal voltages, normally between DC 12-20V.

Hi Ivo,

I'm using filtered battery power with all electronic components (Except the pc -- at the moment ) and all I can say: There is a big difference between this system and conventional power supplies, it's worth the effort to optimize.

Georg

I use a Lindy 6-way Mains conditioner and I thought it sounded good. Although I would have to try it without to see if I gain dynamics ? 

Edit: It got 5 stars in What Hifi so I assume the dynamics are still present ?

Hi George,

Can you tell/show us how you did the battery-filtering?
Thanks,

Ed linssen

The answer to the original question, is a clear YES.
Even with a mid-fi source, a more stable PSU do brings an improvement to the sound, albeit not huge.

I am using a Shunyata V-ray for my source components, including the computer, lieanr psu for the sound card, and the dac.  My amps run from a Shunyata Hydra 8, and I am using their power cords on everything.

The Shunyata stuff works so well because it takes power distribution seriously, uses filters which do not harm the sound, and also prevents your components from polluting the ac for your system.

This is with 120v 60 Hz USA power, but I would assume that 220v and 50Hz would work the same.  Clean power is extremely important for good sound.  Once converted to analog, the signal simply modulates the Ac from the wall to drive your speakers -- the AC is in the signal path as far as I am concerned.

Best regards,

Mark

Hi Ed,

I'm using maintenance free batteries for solar equipment buffered by polarized capacitors (chemicon) and some low pass filtering capacitors. The equipment and the handling is very basic because I'm using high efficient loudspeakers - alnico coax for the satellites and alnico horn for the bass. I reload the batteries every 2 weeks or so mostly :)

Georg 

Hi there,

First reply by myself  :)

Being a serious audiophile for years now & after listening to several power conditioners, I settled for PS-Audio. Their products are really something special. They really bring improvement. They have both active & passive devices. Just try them & see if you like them.

Cheers,

Remco.

Yes. 

I use a PS audio Power Plant Premier on each of my Audio and Video systems, before that I had a PSA P600.

http://www.psaudio.com/ps/products/description/power-plant-premier_copy?cat=power

NB these units are not filters - they convert the mains to DC then regenerate AC.  Since I live in a tower block in Hong Kong and I also use my mains for network distribution, its an essential and very effective bit of kit.  I guess if you live in the middle of a field, you may not need it ;-)

I presume you mean over and above what a well designed piece of audiophile gear would already have.  I personally have not done a lot of experimentation in this area.  But I know people who have.  One guy in particular - Hugh Dean at Aspen Audio - I respect a lot.  He recons it has a lot to do with where you live.  I live in Brisbane Australia and Hugh reckons it makes little if any difference in Aus.

What does make a big difference is the quality of the power supply in the device itself.  For example many people have reported large leaps in sound by for example replacing the switching supply found in some DAC, squezeboxes etc by a linear one.

Thanks
Bill

 

G'day Bill the "banana-bender", welcome to the forum  :)

Stick around; you've found the home of the best PC music playback program on the planet (IMESHO) !

Cheers,

Russ

Glad to hear you say that.  For now though it is a bit of a downer since I can't get it to work.  Confident though someone will help me.

That's the bad news.  The good news is I haven't set up my music system yet so this is just a check out.  Plenty of time to get the bugs sorted out and have a chat to guys like you about the best way to go.

First question is what kind of PC do you guys reckon is best to use.  I had heard a mac mini is the best but am not too keen on macs.  I would rather not use a notebook either because I also intend to use it as a home theater pc.  Personally I would like to get something the computer store I like dealing with can make up for me along the lines of a home theater pc.

Thanks
Bill

Personally I wouldn't make much fuzz about my audio PC. The only things to really think about is whether you want it silent (not necessary when in a cabinet) and how many SATAII disk connections you need. And do NOT make it a HTPC !! ... because that will contain just all the wrong things for audio (in fact, you couldn't do more wrong IMHO).

That's all. Haha.
Peter


PS: If you want to make it a gadget, the story is different. But then the first thing that slick looking emulated DVD devices would contain is a DVD slot. Why ?
Just stuff the audio PC somewhere out of sight, but let stick out the IR receiver somewhere. An audio PC is as nothing as possible with a large disk space and GOOD cpu capabilities (2 cores, large 2nd level cache, no power saving processor, fast FSB).

Hi Peter


Thanks for the info - much appreciated.  When I came across this site I had a good feeling I would be dealing with people on my wavelength.

When I say HTPC I mean I will also be connecting the video out to my TV so I can watch the occasional movie I have downloaded from the net.  My initial thoughts were a PC similar to the ultra silent model published in the local computer magazine Australian Personal Computer.  Basically it consists of an I3, Gigabyte GA-P55-UD3 (which is supposed to be very quiet), two SSD disks to eliminate disk noise (I like them for faster boot up times as well), quiet power supply and cooler.  Since I will have it networked to my main PC (thats the one I am currently using) no DVD ROM or blue ray player or anything mechanical at all.

Thanks
Bill
 

The specs look good (i'm particularly fond of gigabyte ud mainboards). A dvd by itself won't cause any problem. The most harmless player (i.e no codecs needed) is media player classic.