XXHighEnd

Ha ! that is something new !!

Ok, I got the notion quite some XP users found themselves a tad dissatisfied because Engine#1 and #2 -meant for XP- currently don't workout today as ever intended, never mind those sound engines were a surrogate right from the beginning opposed to Engine#3 for Vista. So I thought to change that ...

I took a rather rough route to make XP Users as satisfied, and created something, well, new;

I challenge you all to guess what this can be, and although it actually is a kind of logical solution, it may be tough to guess knowing the background of XXHighEnd. Just let your imagination roll ...

Allright, the real reason for writing this in advance of the upgrade exploiting it - may be Christmas coming along and some of you intending to get yourselves a Vista box in order to hop over to the ultimate : Engine#3.

Don't.

0.9y-5 will contain a few goodies amongst which the subject here, and since I like to talk in riddles anyway, these are your hints :

• Only when I'm really enthusiast I mention things in advance (like : can't fail :))
  
• It is based on older technology, though enhanced by far by me, using the current knowledge of everything (read : couldn't have done that a few years back).
  
• It is called Engine#4.
  
• All the means of control are equal to Engine#3, hence all the current features and further technology are in there, but now available to XP.
  
• Internal latency is better than WASAPI (hence Engine#3, this is to trick the know-it-alls).
  
• Of course it is "bit perfect".
  
• I may well be that from now on, I myself will be playing through Engine#4; besides all virtues we know to me it seems more analogue !
  
• It also can be used on Vista. :teasing:
  

Right. I may be wrong on the SQ coming from it, since tonight has been the first night I could play full albums in a normal fashion. But I'm overwhelmed.

There is also a downside :
For starters, Engine#3 doesn't work anymore at this moment. Not intended, but an unforseen combination of things. Probably no big deal, and I will get around that. But besides this, Engine#4 may have drawn too much of my intention, and the bugs in 0.9y-4 are yet still to solve. This means :

Or 0.9y-5 has to wait until everything has settled again which I estimate to be January, or I finisish Engine#4 before solving those bugs, at the same time solving some of those (generally described under "priority problems" - mainly found with Windows7 (and then to think this wasn't tested under W7 at all)). I guess I choose for the first, which may even come down to Engine#3 not being operable in 0.9y-5. I don't know yet.
When this is indeed my choice, 0.9y-5 will be there within a week, the 0.9y-4 bugs being there for 4 weeks or so longer. BUT, it may be so that we all prefer Engine#4 over those bugs, in the mean time helping those with XP.

Anyway, who is the first to guess what Engine#4 is about ?

:whistle:

Hi Peter,

Wow - that would be well received, I think / hope :clapping:

Will that open up for running XXHIGHEND fluently on Atom 230 (single core) and XP?

My guess would be that you have written an ASIO driver for XP?

Keep up the good work.

Per

Does this mean the Hiface usb to SPDIF converter will work with engine #4??? :) (Kernel streaming or direct sound)

Well Per, you are one of the motivators on this one, and I sure do hope so. The single core thing isn't the best because "using all the features from Engine#3" means it is rather based on using processor cores in parallel, but it runs more lean and I'll give it a chance.
Ha ! I only now realize that my HTPC is an XP machine with an 833MHz :swoon: hyperthreading processor of which the hyperthreading is shut off (making it a single core as how I did it (meaning at the HAL (hardware abstraction layer)). So I guess I can test it myself and (try to) tweak when necessary.

Peter

I can think only of two things: Kernel Streaming or ASIO. I hope it's not the latter, because I cant use it (until infrasonic writes multiclient asio drivers).

Compared to Engine#3?

How is this possible?

Mani.

Maybe I'm too early with my judgement, but it is fuller, again more tight and pressured bass and something like a better colour. More mid.
It can play inifinitly loud at the same time.

Also, if I look what I did relatively to WASAPI, it indeed would go that direction.

Yes, it is Kernel Streaming, but implemented in a way for sure nobody does / has done. :)

Peter

Peter, THANKS A LOT - I really appreciate your attempts :thankyou:. It will be easier and cheaper to set up a quiet music pc if one can go for a less powerful processor and XP. (I buy one, I will go for the dual core Atom 330 or faster, though - just to have some spare power ;) Keep up the good work. Per

That looks good Per. But if you are going to buy something, maybe wait what others have to say about it (SQ wise) ?
The upgrade is planned for today. Otherwise tomorrow.

Peter

Allright, half of the verdic time has passed, and after 3 days of listening (at knowing I need 5), this is what I can say about it :

It is not better.f:scratching: :swoon:

It seems I need my room correction stuff again, and I imagine the highs not to be as interesting. Less detail too, I think.
So, standing waves are back again, but ...

Hmm ...

But I never enjoyed music as much as last night !

What ?

Yes; As far as I can tell it sounds more normal. More balanced. As I said earlier, more mid. Less highs. Also more bass, and I'm not sure if it is of the good kind (standing waves). Less detail, it seems.
But it has emotion all over.

Indeed I keep on "hearing" analogue. Including a kind of smeared highs from vinyl. Actually it is the most interesting what actually happened.
And to keep in mind : I may be just wrong. It could be my mood.
But one thing I know for sure : this is totally different, and it belongs in another leage.

It may well be that others (e.g. with good room treatment) even perceive it way better than I do. I think it *will* be so that those seeking for emotion have wet eyes for a couple of albums. For others it may be so that they loose the interest in listening.

Theoretically I belong to the latter group, but I noticed there wasn't time to look for detail and everything, as there was no time to be disturbed by standing waves. Somehow the music is first.
Maybe ... just maybe I only now get what those vinyl freaks find lacking in CDs.

Ok, by now I am really curious what others think.
All is working, but I will need today to finish off other small things like letting Engine#3 work again (for which one day may be too few).

Peter

Am leaving tomorrow morning for work and won't be back till Thursday. Any chance one could preview engine#4 sometime today? Just wondering.... :)

Still fighting with the Engine#3 problems ... (YOU know :) :))
One advantage for you : when the day is over here, you have a couple of hours to go ...

I will, Peter. Thanks. Anyway - things are progressing very slow for me due to health  :sad:

Per

Thanks man. You are remarkable.

No, not today ...

I got Engine3 working again allright, but now see myself (indeed) confronted with audio devices disabled but still selected by KS and more stuff.
It just needs some more time to sort this out I'm afraid ...

:sorry:

No problem. Have a great week. Look forward to testing the m2tech usb/spdif gizmo Thursday or Friday.

This sounds exiting!

I am still stuck on a legacy XP platform and I also happen to still love analog (LP) for the very easy emotional connection I can make with the music. Peterst's comments a few posts back are the reason I joined XXhighend in the first place after having an engine #3 experience on the headphones.
No matter how perfect current digital may sound, I still happen to lose interest after a while and suit it mainly to 'wallpaper' other activities.

Looking very much forward to engine #4!!

regards, Coen

OK ... :scratching: ... time's up here.
I really tried by best to get it all working before leaving for a short break, but it just won't. Too many things are involved, and too many things influence playback without more attention.
Actually it is working, as long as by pure coincidence the selected sound device is the very first one selected by *that* means, which chances are virtually zero in normal circumstances.

And so I thought this is not a good thing to do. Not while I'm not there to apply changes and help to get you going.
And thus it will be January.

In the mean time I hope you will be enjoying 0.9y-4.


Side note (or not :)) :
I am not 100% confident this Kernel Streaming is "it". I never shut it down so far, but I am always wondering whether Engine#3 (WASAPI) wouldn't have been beter afterall after listening to an album. The latter is snappier, more to the point, and looks more like reality.
It's been a week now, and I was disturbed at quite some occasions. This never happened with Engine#3.
But we'll see ...

Peter

Hi Peter,

No problem. Actually it might be better for all of us, that you concentrate on one engine and one (two w Win 7) operating systems to support. I think you have plenty to do to keep us going and steadily improving XXHIGHEND. You truly deserve a break / holliday and I want to wish you all the best and a Merry Xmas. When you return I hope to have something running here to report on....

Very Best Regards,

Per

Ditto to Pers thoughts.....and January is certainly better than February!

Have a great holliday.

I trust Peter to be unbiased in his choice for the OS that provides the best SQ. I'm glad he had an open mind enough to step back and discover more potential in XP than anyone could have imagined, even so much so that he still has no conclusive verdict of #3 over #4 after a week... Now that's commitment to ultimate fidelity!

I hope you all have a very nice and relaxed x-mas break, still looking forward to 2010,

regards, Coen

Hi,

Actually, what I intend with Kermel Streaming (in the end) will go beyond anything we know. It is a strange thing though;

Microsoft ever went on the path of DirectShow which is a very nice mechanism to make routes through the internals of the PC, from the input (which is the audio file for audio) up to the ouput (which is the endpoint device, which by itself is the soundcard, or the DAC for USB -> note that DirectShow wasn't much built for USB audio in the beginning, whereas today things should be possible in that area just the same).

MS created one example for KS, and all the KS supporting players make use of that example. This is how I started off as well, but this is not how it will end;
People using video players may know about "Graph building", which actually allows for everything to the smallest detail about connting the input to the output. Internall this doesn't go just like that, but, following the MS example it will. It goes beyond us, because it goes automatically. The route is created for us in that case. But all is there to create it ourselves, although MS long gong stepped away from this;

The decoding of the PCM data (which is in the files) is done by means of codecs, say, decoders. Normally we don't choose them, but we can. One may run leaner than the other, one uses the memory different from the other. It is not much different from the Engine#3 settings/possibilities, although the only thing under our control is the choose of codec (and each *will* sound different, which is a promise ... :)).
But what about the possibility to play multi channel audio in stereo, the decoding of that again done by means of a "DirectShow Filter" of your choice. And I can tell you, dozens of these filters exist, and they come with software you buy or got into the PC otherwise.
You may look below for an example of it, or look here to get a better idea : http://www.backupdvd.info/Members/video/GRAPH_EDIT.shtml although this is video orentiented.

Notice that for some this may go too far, but for others it may be an endless tool for toying, looking for better sound (of which I'm not sure at all it can be done !!). Anyway, also keep in mind that once created Graphs can be shared. This by itself is easy, but having all the filters on board may be a more tedious thing (but they can be shared too) which is merely about the "merits" of the filters, and one which works (meaning : is able to put into the Graph) in my system, may not be in yours. So, there is quite something to learn here, but still it is great fun.
For those who know it : I introduced this myself for TheaterTek (wich is a DirectShow video player), and indeed it allowed many more file types to play (mkv being the big sport), and I think many people spent some nice year of free time by getting things done (at last). It is a hobby within itself.
Oh, you can even apply clocks of different types at the place you want, and although this is about the clocking at the PC side, I guess it just *will* matter.

So far,
Peter

or the other way around *hint hint* :)

BTW, you have opened a can of worms, be careful that they dont bite ;)

Player good,but requires a sound analysis.Sound interesting after long time (few years) using of foobar2000.In foobar i used ASIO (not asio4all),newer dont use any plugins,resamplers,equalizers and others potencial sound distortion elements.

We XP users are prepared.  Are you or should we hold out longer?

I am haunted by your statements:  :)

But I never enjoyed music as much as last night!

But it has emotion all over!

I have two different interface cards (a Lynx AES16 and Juli@) to feed my external DACs.  Will these work with what you are planning and my external DACs or do I need to look into using different hardware? :dntknw:

Mr. Hood ... Dear Robin :),

The only thing I can say now (actually I could have told it somewhat longer ago) is ...

Those graphs I showed before ... It isn't going to work. :sad:
It can, but it is all about not bit-perfect stuff, I know now. So, I have been over-enthusiast.


I don't know how or what (just because you didn't tell), but nevertheless I keep on trying.

Thanks !
Peter

?

This is as clear as mud:  :scratching:

"Vista Users ... prepare yourselves ..."

"Windows7 ? hmm ... maybe not !"

"XP Users, prepare yourselves !"

Where do we stand on the version of Windows that provides the best sonics with XXHighEnd?  Is it too early to tell or should we just jump on the Win7 bandwagon since it represents the latest and future releases of Windows? :dntknw:

You are mixing a few things up maybe ? :yes:

If there's a topic "Vista users" etc., this doesn't tell Vista will be the best choice. It just tells that Vista users have to do something in order to proceed "tomorrow" (read the topic and you'll see).
If there's a topic "XP users" etc., it tells XP users, who can't play with XX anyway, "tomorrow" they will (mind you, this tomorrow still has to come).
If there's a topic "Windows7 maybe not" it just tells to stay away from W7 when possible.

Where can there be confusement ?

But let's throw in some :

I am fairly confident that most XP users from today "know" that XP brings the best sound. But beware, this is because of environmental things and the playback (player) means they use. At least XXHighEnd proves that Vista just is way better. BUT it uses a different playback means. Uncomparible (no WASAPI for XP).

I also dare make a bet that Kernel Streaming (available on all platforms from off W2K) will sound the best on W7. Just theories, and not that I heard it or compared. And there is NO development (by MS) in Kernel Streaming. There is in the OS though.

And then I "know" that WASAPI doesn't sound right on W7 (so far) compared to Vista. But possibly I can improve on that (like taking OUT the SSD; yea, start laughing).


So, NOW you are confused. Ok ?
hehe
Peter

One more thing, before everybody starts switching from XP to W7 :

Keep in mind that drivers working for XP will not for W7. This can go as fas as KS working under XP while it won't under W7 (with the same hardware).
What I do not know yet is whether running XP virtually on top of W7 again allows for that (it should be, because that's what this virtualization is made for), but to me it doesn't seem the best option for good sound. I really don't know though.